Ferrari to take their toys and go home

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You know, I'm a Le Mans maniac, and even if I understood Ferrari's drop out of it after 1972 (I think the 512M was their last "serious" attempt at a Le Mans win) ... I will always miss their presence there (still drooling when they do show up at the historical feature races with the P4, the GTO, the LM, the Testarossa, the 512S and M ... )

But ... Le Mans today is also a two tier series. And Ferrari won't make a Diesel engine for it.

So, if no compromise is reached with Mr. Mosley (and remember, the FIA also runs the Le Mans Series) ... what will they do? They have to go racing somewhere, it's in Ferrari's blood and heritage to have a race team (remembering Enzo Ferrari's words "others race to sell cars, we sell cars to race").
 
What I don't understand is why Ferrari seem to think that there will actually be a two-tier system. In theory, it would exist, but to me the budget cap has been constructed in such a way that no-one in their right minds would run without it because of all the advantages it offers. The only reason Ferrari would be protesting is if they'd be considering running outside it becuse they think forty million pounds isn't enough to run a team (but Ecclestne has said that number is liable to change). But with all the freedom of design the budget cap offers, how can thy jusify not running under it? I'd be very surprised if the two-tier system somehow went through and there were crs running without the budget cap.

The problem is, even with the design restrictions, you have teams who interpret the rules in their own way (see "diffuser row"), so with two sets of rules, it's even harder to find who's breaking which set (and the potential for controversy even worse). So the advantage of the budget cap rules is not so clear cut as you might think. Going back and forth as the teams trial and error the rules they like the best will prove frustrating for everyone involved, including fans.
 
I think what they're doing to Formula 1 is horrible. We don't want price caps. It's F1! It's supposed to be the best of the best and not, "Blue Light Specials."

Instead of molesting F1, why don't they create a new league. Make all the cars the same car. Same body, chassis, engine, transmission, wheels, whings, etc. That way, it'll be cheap. That way a lot of different manufactures can join.

Allow whomever to pick a driver and start racing. No teams, only single drivers. They can call this new league Formula 1 Alike Racing Tournament. I'm sure it'll be a big hit.

THIS. F1 is about cutting edge innovation. Innovation takes investment. The only thing budget caps and spec parts are going to do, in my opinion, is take the sheen off F1, make it just like any other racing series.

If you can't afford it, race in a series where you can.
 
You could also possibly include the fact that Ferrari supplies all of the A1GP cars and thinks they can still survive financially by continuing to do so and not rely on F1, they do have the engine contract. The others (Mercedes, BMW, Toyota) don't have that cushion to rest on and would have to follow some other form of open-wheel or go to LMP cars.

A longshot to tie onto that is that Ferrari could then develop the A1 engines to be more technically dominant than their F1 cousins considering all the "downgrades" being imposed on a current F1 motor compared to 5 years ago.
 
THIS. F1 is about cutting edge innovation. Innovation takes investment. The only thing budget caps and spec parts are going to do, in my opinion, is take the sheen off F1, make it just like any other racing series.

If you can't afford it, race in a series where you can.

agreed. really even with the economy they shouldnt be doing this to F1. heck with the amount of money they pour out there actually helping the economy by putting more money into it. but IMO this budget cap is like letting everyone own a super car. if you cant afford it then dont buy it. but dont try and take your honda civic and turn it into a super car (no offence to civic owners its just the biggest car the gets riced out). if 40M is all your wanting to spend then im sure you could easily goto the LMS series or rolex series or even F3 or GP2 and run a competitive car on the money. but dont downgrade F1 just so we can watch a bunch of crappy teams lose every week.
 
if FIA is so worried about the money being circulated in F1, then why not reinstate cigarette sponsorship for 5-10 years.... that will boost the sponsorship and finances in F1 big time.... but I forgot why they did with that in the first place, something about bad rep?
 
Because it's irresponsible. Cigarettes kill, and to have the drivers endorse them is profiting off that. I thnk you'd be hard-pressed to find a driver willing to carry tobacco branding if there was another drive available elsewhere. And before you say it, Ferrari only run the Malboro barcode, not the actual name.
 
I haven't seen any mention of jobs yet.

That is what I believe is as huge risk should the budget cap come into place. There was huge worries over the the number of unemployed if Brawn was to go bust, imagine if all the big manufacturers have to cut hundreds of staff from their development teams?

How can anyone support an idea that causes mass unemployment in this economic climate? Forget about the quality of racing for 2-3 years, F1 will survive like it did when Schumacher dominated, make changes when these people have a chance of getting other jobs.
 
I haven't seen any mention of jobs yet.

That is what I believe is as huge risk should the budget cap come into place. There was huge worries over the the number of unemployed if Brawn was to go bust, imagine if all the big manufacturers have to cut hundreds of staff from their development teams?

How can anyone support an idea that causes mass unemployment in this economic climate? Forget about the quality of racing for 2-3 years, F1 will survive like it did when Schumacher dominated, make changes when these people have a chance of getting other jobs.

I would suspect that far more jobs will be lost if the don't impose a cap on what teams can spend.

Shedding half your staff because of budget cuts is one thing. Losing every job because a team cannot continue due to the lack of money in the economy is much worse.

New teams coming into the championship are going to need experienced staff and that will lessen the blow.
 
Reading the Ferrari statement in full, I think their main issue is the "Two tier" regulations, not exactly the budget caps.

"The Board of Directors examined developments related to recent decisions taken by the FIA during an extraordinary meeting of the World Motor Sport Council on 29 April 2009. Although this meeting was originally called only to examine a disciplinary matter, the decisions taken mean that, for the first time ever in Formula One, the 2010 season will see the introduction of two different sets of regulations based on arbitrary technical rules and economic parameters.

"The Board considers that if this is the regulatory framework for Formula One in the future, then the reasons underlying Ferrari's uninterrupted participation in the World Championship over the last 60 years – the only constructor to have taken part ever since its inception in 1950 – would come to a close.

"The Board also expressed its disappointment about the methods adopted by the FIA in taking decisions of such a serious nature and its refusal to effectively reach an understanding with constructors and teams.

"The rules of governance that have contributed to the development of Formula One over the last 25 years have been disregarded, as have the binding contractual obligations between Ferrari and the FIA itself regarding the stability of the regulations.

"The same rules for all teams, stability of regulations, the continuity of the FOTA (Formula One Teams Association) endeavours to methodically and progressively reduce costs, and governance of Formula One are the priorities for the future.

"If these indispensable principles are not respected and if the regulations adopted for 2010 will not change, then Ferrari does not intend to enter its cars in the next Formula One World Championship.

"Ferrari trusts that its many fans worldwide will understand that this difficult decision is coherent with the Scuderia's approach to motorsport and to Formula One in particular, always seeking to promote its sporting and technical values.

"The Chairman of the Board of Directors was mandated to evaluate the most suitable ways and methods to protect the company's interests."
 
Eclestone has responded, saying "Ferrari is Formula One"
Ecclestone: "Ferrari is Formula One"

13 May 2009

Bernie Ecclestone is keen to see a future for Ferrari in Formula One after the possibility arose this week that the team may withdraw from the sport. An announcement from the team's Maranello base on Tuesday stated that Ferrari would not be submitting an entry to the 2010 championship without revision of the FIA's proposed budget cap.

The Scuderia, constructors' Champions in 16 years including 2008, has endured a highly frustrating start this season as F1 returned with highly differing aerodynamic regulations. With a £40m budget cap proposed for next year and the subsequent possibility of a 'two-tier' championship taking place, however, Ferrari has become the third team - after Toyota and Red Bull - to threaten an exit from the sport.

"I'm not one to talk about perfect marriages," F1 supremo Ecclestone said to The Times, having divorced from wife Slavica in November of last year, "but this is a perfect marriage. Formula One is Ferrari and Ferrari is Formula One; it's as simple as that and it's not going to change."

The FIA's proposed scheme would involve teams electing to compete with the budget cap option whilst enjoying more technical advantages or, alternatively, run on an unlimited budget by complying to more restricted technical rules, such as this year; it is this matter - of running with two sets of technical regulations in the field - over which teams are expressing their dissatisfaction. "I hope common sense will prevail, because the last thing we want to do is lose any of the manufacturers or teams currently in Formula One," Ecclestone added.
Now, before anyone jumps to conclusions, I'm not using this as proof that the FIA and FOM are biased towards Ferrari and that all their decisions are in favour of them. Nor do I think this is going to be a case of FOM paying Ferrari to reconsider their opinions of the regulations.

What I think Ecclestone is saying here is the he wants to see the teams stay in the sport, and that common sense will see that it stays that way. And not just common sense on Ferrari's part, but common sense from the other side of the table. I think that the exact regulations are yet to be finalised, and I should like to think that the teams would be consulted on this so that everyone wins; kind of like when the consortium of teams came together to assess how to make the 2009 cars more overtaking-friendly than their predecessors. Like I said, I don't think anyone - from the FIA and FOM through to the fans and Ferrari themselves - want to see the Prancing Horses depart from the sport. I think Ferrari's annoucement that they could depart was more of a way of expressing their dissatisfaction with the rules rather than an actual threat they would carry out (though I don't doubt for a second that they would make good on it). To me, Ferrari are using their name and their image as their very own soapbox, and not without precedent.
 
Sky News are reporting similar sentiments from Renault.

Or rather Flavio Briatore. Who has said that Renault will "pull out" (I thought the teams had to submit applications to compete? Surely that'd be "not enter"?) of 2010 "unless the rules are changed".
 
Briatore attacking Brawn simply because they were doing well and he isn't means any and all credibility he has is null and void. To hear him tell it, Formula One is always in the middle of some crisis or another; the only time the sport is safe from harm is when Renault are the ones winning. And despite what he may think, Formula One would probably be better off without him making such pithy comments about other drivers who are finally getting an opportunity to express their abilities and talents.

Besides, Renault have bigger problems: ING are pulling all their sponsorship funding at the end of the year. Renault could well be using this episode as a pretext to cover up the fact that their Formula One programme isn't going anywhere, kind of like Toyota using it as an excuse to withdraw.
 
An announcement from the team's Maranello base on Tuesday stated that Ferrari would not be submitting an entry to the 2010 championship without revision of the FIA's proposed budget cap.


Again, this sentence taken from the quote in "do you race?"'s post ... is inaccurate and misleading. Ferrari threatens to retire mainly because of the two tier system.


Also, we're not talking about Briatore, it's Renault. Statement here (got it from f1.live):


"The decision of the Federation International de l'Automobile (FIA) to introduce two sets of Formula One technical regulations for the 2010 Formula One season has caused the Renault Group to reconsider its entry in next year's FIA Formula One World Championship.

There is frustration that FOTA's constructive proposals, including major cost saving measures to be adopted progressively between 2009 and 2012, which were carefully constructed by FOTA members, have been completely ignored without any form of consultation by the FIA with the teams.

It should be stressed that FOTA has set the same, if not lower, financial objective as the FIA, but Renault strongly believes that this must be introduced through a different procedure agreed by all parties.

Renault also believes that it is paramount that the governance of the sport is coordinated with a spirit of consultation with all parties (FIA, FOM, FOTA) in order to achieve a better balance between the costs and the revenues.

Renault is also of the firm view that all entrants in the World Championship must adhere to and operate under the same regulations."




EDIT: It seems the italian press is already speculating if Ferrari will launch a "back to Le Mans" program, or if it will go to an american series. I would love to see a big red LMP (closed top, like the Ferraris of old), but I just don't see them doing a diesel engine.

But I guess a Indy 500 win by a Ferrari would be nice also ;)

Anyway, FOTA will meet with Mosley and I guess some solution will be found.
 
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Again, this sentence taken from the quote in "do you race?"'s post ... is inaccurate and misleading. Ferrari threatens to retire mainly because of the two tier system.

Brought about by... the budget cap.

Teams which stay within the budget cap get tech breaks. Teams that don't do not.


Also, we're not talking about Briatore, it's Renault. Statement here (got it from f1.live):

That's Renault's statement, yes. But the earlier quotes I attributed to Briatore were... attributable to Briatore.
 
Or rather Flavio Briatore. Who has said that Renault will "pull out" (I thought the teams had to submit applications to compete? Surely that'd be "not enter"?) of 2010 "unless the rules are changed".

Meh. Flavio's the biggest knob in the sport and always has been, ever since Schuey was driving for him. He's the epitome of someone running a team as a business and the archetypal sore loser, who'll brown nose to the FIA like crazy while his team is winning and cry foul when he's losing.

Wouldn't be in the slightest sad to see him and his team go, it'd just be a shame if the hard-working members of the team lost their jobs because of it.

As for Ferrari, it's just another example of sour grapes, IMO. I'm pretty sure if they were dominating this year they'd be more than happy, but they're throwing their toys out of the pram this year because several of the smaller, lower-budget teams had a massive jump on them and they're struggling to keep up. As others have mentioned in this thread, they're just worried they won't be able to compete on such a low budget...
 
It would be bad to lose Ferrari but if I was the head of the FIA there is no way I would tolerate any team attempting to hold the sport I'm in charge of to ransom. They would be given one opportunity to back out of this without loss of face and if they didn't take it they would be disqualified from the championship with immediate effect.

Renault used to be Benetton and before that Toleman. I think they could look for a new owner like Brawn did if Renault did pull out.
 
It would be bad to lose Ferrari but if I was the head of the FIA there is no way I would tolerate any team attempting to hold the sport I'm in charge of to ransom. They would be given one opportunity to back out of this without loss of face and if they didn't take it they would be disqualified from the championship with immediate effect.

Renault used to be Benetton and before that Toleman. I think they could look for a new owner like Brawn did if Renault did pull out.

I'd like to hear a valid reason the FIA could disqualify Ferrari over for threatening to leave the sport? A disqualification would be childish.

I think the issue over this is the two tier system. Everybody should have the same rules. FIA are just trying to force everybody onto the budget cap by heavily disadvantaging those not on it. Also asking a team currently operating on 40-50 million is fairly easy, but say Ferrari spend 150 million, is it honestly that easy for them to slide off 110 million in one year? I can't see that being possible and the cost alone of the restructure would probably put them over the budget anyway. Like others have suggested, Budget for everyone and every year it reduced. To allow teams to adjust rather than throw them in the deep end.
 
I think Ferrari don't like that they can't get an advantage by just shoving more money in.

As for Ferrari, it's just another example of sour grapes, IMO. I'm pretty sure if they were dominating this year they'd be more than happy, but they're throwing their toys out of the pram this year because several of the smaller, lower-budget teams had a massive jump on them and they're struggling to keep up. As others have mentioned in this thread, they're just worried they won't be able to compete on such a low budget...

I think people are assuming too much about Ferrari and also implying that Ferrari only remains competitive because it spends absurd amounts of money (compared to the other top teams).

I didn't find 2009 numbers, but I found the 2008 ones:

"2008 F1 team resources
Including sponsorship, supplier deals, prize money, team owner contributions, tyre provision and supply of customer engines where appropriate.

Toyota: $445.6m
McLaren: $433.3m
Ferrari: $414.9m
Honda: $398.1m
Renault: $393.8m
BMW Sauber: $366.8m
Red Bull Racing: $164.7m
Williams: $160.6m
Toro Rosso: $128.2m
Force India: $121.85m
Super Aguri: $45.6m"

Source (don't know how reliable it is): http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/09/22/toyota-has-biggest-f1-budget-4456m/


Also, I found this article about what made F1's budgets go up enormously since the 90's. I had a vague idea about Mercedes starting the trend but this article speaks about all of it better than I can. Agree or disagree, it's an interesting read:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/165047-f1-on-a-shoestring-the-budget-cap
 
Le Mans will never have the same TV coverage as F1, even ignoring the fact its just 1 race, that happens on 1 weekend each year, compared to F1 with its 15+ races.
The audience just isn't there for 24 hour races, if you ask someone on the street who came 2nd in Le Mans last year and who came 2nd in F1 last year, I can bet the majority will know one and not the other.



Le Mans also has a 7 or 8 race series, perhaps if that expanded....
 
I think people are assuming too much about Ferrari and also implying that Ferrari only remains competitive because it spends absurd amounts of money (compared to the other top teams).

I don't have any problems with a team staying competitive by throwing more money. Ferrari has been one of the top spenders in F1. If the budget cap was enforced, money-wise Ferrari would have to compete with all the teams participating.

It would be bad to lose Ferrari but if I was the head of the FIA there is no way I would tolerate any team attempting to hold the sport I'm in charge of to ransom. They would be given one opportunity to back out of this without loss of face and if they didn't take it they would be disqualified from the championship with immediate effect.

That wouldn't work out too well, since practically F1 doesn't exist without Ferrari. The majority of F1 fans are Ferrari fans, so Ferrari holds a lot of power.
 
This gets emotional. Taken from: www.ferrari.com

Dear friends,

I want to thank you personally for the numerous messages of support we received from all over the world over the last hours on our website and via email. It is important to know that we can count on the support of our fans all over the world and that our fans completely share the motivations, which brought us to take such a decision. If we were forced to leave the Championship we were part of over the last 60 years of our history and where we set all the records in terms of victories, it is because they want to change the nature of its founding values.

If it really was like that, then I have to say that our cars will race in other competitions, where – and I am absolutely convinced about that – they will find the enthusiasm and the passion of millions of fans, following us in every corner of the world. Racing is part of Ferrari’s DNA and this is something that will never change.

Luca di Montezemolo



Massa: "There will always be a Ferrari on the track"

“I understand the motivation, why the Company got to this point. The idea of having a Championship with two velocities, with cars, which for example are allowed to have flexible wings or an engine without a rev limiter, is absurd. We’ve already seen this year that the rules’ uncertainty not only led to a lot of confusion for us involved, but mainly for the fans. Imagine what might happen with what has been set up for 2010.

For a driver racing a Ferrari in Formula 1 is a dream and I made mine come true. Since I was a child Ferrari has been the synonym for racing for me; that’s why I’m convinced that even if the Scuderia is forced to leave Formula 1, there will be other competitions, where it will be possible to admire the Reds on the track.”


Raikkonen: "I can’t imagine a Formula 1 without Ferrari"

"It’s difficult to think of a Formula 1 without Ferrari. When I drove for McLaren the Scuderia from Maranello was the benchmark, the competitor you had to be compared with. Since I arrived here I understood that it is much more than just a team, it’s a legend, perpetuated via its road and racing cars.

I always had the passion for racing with everything with an engine and I always thought of Formula 1 as the pinnacle of motor sports, in terms of competition and technology. Obviously if there really were rules like the ones set by FIA, it would be difficult to imagine a Formula 1 we had until today.

I can’t imagine drivers racing each other on the track with cars built according to different rules; that wouldn’t be good for the sport itself or for the fans. If that should happen, it would be too bad and I understand that a Company like Ferrari is thinking about racing somewhere else.”

Maybe this thread's title should - using Raikkonen's words - be renamed to "Ferrari to take their toys and go somewhere else" ;)
 
Kimi-Massa-Schumi in a Ferrari LMP at the 24 Hours? Nah, better not get my hopes up.
 
I hope we get a breakaway series, with FOTA making the rules. Leave Max and Bernie to watch Force India do laps around Valencia. We will probably be watching the San Marino GP that weekend.

I've read rumors that the break away teams would each buy a piece of A1GP, since it already comes with circuit contracts and TV contracts. And that each would enter 3 cars to fill up the field. There's even a rumor that Ferrari's third driver would be none other than 8 time MotoGP champion Valentino Rossi.

Well see what happens. Most likely Bernie will not let anything happen to his cash cow. Either way I will support Ferrari no matter where they race.
 
A breakaway threat by Ferrari, Renault and Toyota would be potent.

Imagine everyone stands their ground, and the cost cap comes in and everyone leaves (except Brawn, Williams and then we get some new teams).

No Fernando Alonso = god knows how many millions wasted on the Valencia Street Circuit, and no more Spanish GPs.

No Ferrari = 1/3 of fans leave.

No more Japanese support/money.

Same can be said for the German involvement.

"Formula One" will become a small selection on small teams all constructing their own cars which are all exactly the same, running on a few circuits in far-flung places that nobody will bother to visit.

Surely Bernie can see this cannot happen.

I expect they'll reach a compromise and Mosely will resign. I don't want that in particular but I expect it.
 
A breakaway threat by Ferrari, Renault and Toyota would be potent.

Imagine everyone stands their ground, and the cost cap comes in and everyone leaves (except Brawn, Williams and then we get some new teams).

No Fernando Alonso = god knows how many millions wasted on the Valencia Street Circuit, and no more Spanish GPs.

No Ferrari = 1/3 of fans leave.

No more Japanese support/money.

Same can be said for the German involvement.

"Formula One" will become a small selection on small teams all constructing their own cars which are all exactly the same, running on a few circuits in far-flung places that nobody will bother to visit.

Surely Bernie can see this cannot happen.

I expect they'll reach a compromise and Mosely will resign. I don't want that in particular but I expect it.

Why on earth would you expect Mosley to resign?

I agree partially that F1 without Ferrari is a big loss, but otherwise, I don't really care about all the manufacturers leaving, seeing as they caused this expensive mess in the first place, and Bernie & Co always stated they didn't like the manufacturers around because they held little loyalty for keeping the sport going - they could pull the plug at any moment as to them its just a marketing exercise.
F1 at what is popularly believed to be its height in the 1980s had only 2 car manufacturers involved by 1989- 1 of which wasn't really related to its car-making namesake (Team Lotus). That era was seen as one of the best, so why is it such a big deal for the manufacturers to leave? Apart from Ferrari, good ridance.
 
This is Formula One (trailer)





Featuring:

Max Mosley as ......................... Lee Van Cleef

Luca di Montezemolo as ............. Clint Eastwood

and

Bernie Ecclestone as ................. Eli Wallach


We'll see who blinks the first :D


Music by ................................. Enio Morricone (from 1:40 on it's awesome :lol: )
 
I would not be surprised if Mosely resigned because he's been so firm and direct it would be pretty embarrasing for him if the teams boycott his proposal.

As for the other things I mentioned, I'm just saying I think F1 would collapse if all the teams left, and that is why I expect Bernie and co. to backtrack - not the teams.
 
Ferrari is the only important factor in this.

The other manufacturers can leave and be replaced by other race teams. It wouldn't make much difference. The grid can be filled with constructor teams powered by Cosworth engines plus Ferrari. That is the way F1 was for the majority of its existence. It would work and it would still be the pinnacle of motor racing.

Only Ferrari have the special status that would make their thread real.

The real problem is that most of the time Ferrari has been firmly on the side of the FIA in its dealings with the teams. Now that Ferrari are with the other teams via FOTA it means the FIA don't know how to proceed.
 
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