FiA GT championship "points judgement" should be adjusted

[Lord Protector]

Hello and welcome to this thread. I have been waiting for someone to start a thread on this topic but no one has so here goes.

When I first experienced the very 1st test season of the GT FiA championship I was very happy with the way points are given. It all depends on the players ranking, which is of course a good thing. Winning a C/S race is not the same as winning a B/S race. However, as the 1st official season progressed I became disappointed with the way points are calculated.

Here is the screenshot of my performance in the nations cup:

(higher quality version is down in the attachments

As you can see I have got 1869 points in the first race. This was a race full of A+/S players but not the fastest players of all A+/S players. I finished the race 6th, and got 1869 points, which is good. So far. Because of this race and a manufacturer race, my DR points went up significantly and so from here on I was always matched with the fastest players (TRL Lighting, Derek, Giorgio... you name it). Fine my by me. I was constantly in back, finishing 12 at the best I think in the last race (which was far harder than winning that first race with slower players which got me 1869 points). And for this 12th place I got 1066 points. And that is very wrong. I mean even finishing penultimate (19 out of 20) should got me AT LEAST the same points as winning in slower division.

What's even worse is that people winning an A/S races have way more points than me in A+/S (around 65k DR points) which is shameful. That is just not right.

Currently the points are calculated based on room' average DR points * finishing position but it's not working as it should. The divisions should be separated by much bigger point gap.

Imagine this situation. There are 2 players both A+/S. Player 1 is very quick but not quick enough to win a race with players he’s matched with. He constantly finishes around P10. Let’s say he get’s 1500 points for the finish. Player 2 is also quick but not as quick as Player 1. He has less DR points so he get’s matched with just little bit slower players, they still have strong DR points considering they are all A+/S players. Now let’s assume he finishes around P3. Now get this: he’s awarded 2000 points. Not fair is it? Who do you think should get more points?

In other words, to me it's more beneficial to artificially lower my DR ranking just so little so I am not matched with the fastest players and play against slightly slower guys, like I did in the first race. I would get much more points, with less effort. And that should not be like that.

I don't know if it affects all divisions but it certainly does mine...


What are your thoughts people?

 

[sundaydriving]

Yes I've noticed this. Not really too bothered by it but I get your point.

I guess what you're saying is that the points system should also take into account the relative spread of player DR in a race when allocating how many points should go to each place within that room.

So a room full of players @ 70k DR should have a higher amount of points available than a room full of 50k DR players as it is today but in addition to that when players are closely matched in DR you're saying the points spread from 1st to last should be much tighter than it is now. This might mean that a player winning in the 20x50k DR room can't get more points than a player who comes last in the 20x70k DR room?

I suspect this would make the points tables much closer overall and I'm not sure you'd convince everyone this is a good idea.

 

[Lord Protector]

Yes I've noticed this. Not really too bothered by it but I get your point.

I guess what you're saying is that the points system should also take into account the relative spread of player DR in a race when allocating how many points should go to each place within that room.

So a room full of players @ 70k DR should have a higher amount of points available than a room full of 50k DR players as it is today but in addition to that when players are closely matched in DR you're saying the points spread from 1st to last should be much tighter than it is now. This might mean that a player winning in the 20x50k DR room can't get more points than a player who comes last in the 20x70k DR room?

I suspect this would make the points tables much closer overall and I'm not sure you'd convince everyone this is a good idea.

Yes you get it all! but what do you mean by saying it would make the point tables closer overall?

 

[mclarenLB]

Ultimately I think its fine, the top players will still be the ones invited to the live finals so I don't think it causes issues.

Its an unsolvable problem, if you offer a higher points buffer for lower positions in top split race, you'll get more people intentionally wrecking as it doesn't make as much of difference to their scores.

If you crank up the points gap between splits, you risk even more volatility in 'picking the right timeslot' and the difference between timeslots could create insurmountable points gaps between players.

Works well enough and too risky to mess with at this stage.

 

[Alpha Cipher]

what do you mean by saying it would make the point tables closer overall?

You have to draw a line at how slow is acceptably slow. I agree with all your points. But if a 12th "average" A+ player in a top lobby should get the same or more points than 1st with the same player in a slower lobby, this would have a domino effect down the DR ranks. What happens to B-split races then? A win could be as much as 1500 points in that lobby if this was the system, which, let's be completely honest, is undeserved in a mid-split lobby. At least that's how I understand it

 

[Lord Protector]

Ultimately I think its fine, the top players will still be the ones invited to the live finals so I don't think it causes issues.

Its an unsolvable problem, if you offer a higher points buffer for lower positions in top split race, you'll get more people intentionally wrecking as it doesn't make as much of difference to their scores.

If you crank up the points gap between splits, you risk even more volatility in 'picking the right timeslot' and the difference between timeslots could create insurmountable points gaps between players.

Works well enough and too risky to mess with at this stage.

Sure it’s beneficial for you you are on pace with the other fastest guys. But me, I’m constantly in back of the pack. I’m too slow to race with your kind but as soon as my DR drops below certain point where I get matched with slower people, I win and I’m back with you in which case I always get like 1000 points at the best...

You think it’s fair that I cannot even get as much points as slower people just because I can’t get a better position with much slower players?

And I’m not saying they need to do it “my way” and right now. I’m just pointing at something that isn’t working as intended.

 

[mclarenLB]

Sure it’s beneficial for you you are on pace with the other fastest guys. But me, I’m constantly in back of the pack. I’m too slow to race with your kind but as soon as my DR drops below certain point where I get matched with slower people, I win and I’m back with you in which case I always get like 1000 points at the best...

Yeah I understand your frustration, Im just not sure theres a reasonable solution that wouldn't have an unforeseen side effect on something else.

 

[Cuber Tom]

Yeah I understand your frustration, Im just not sure theres a reasonable solution that wouldn't have an unforeseen side effect on something else.

The solution is to remove the driver rating cap which will boost the top split races by the correct amount.
I would also change it so last place get 1/3 the point of the winner instead of 0 points

 

[mclarenLB]

The solution is to remove the driver rating cap which will boost the top split races by the correct amount.

Well yeah, of course, I've been spouting that for months but its pretty evident they have no interest in doing so

 

[Tidgney]

You could just do similar to what the top 24 superstar races are like, have base points for a certain lobby strength and then have the multiplier from that. Just don't do the crazy 300% thing they do in superstar races and I think that could work as it's the same principle? Getting faster guys to race at the same time?

Edit: Just a random example;

70K+ - 500 points
65k + - 450 points
60k + - 400 points etc...

 

[mclarenLB]

You could just do similar to what the top 24 superstar races are like, have base points for a certain lobby strength and then have the multiplier from that. Just don't do the crazy 300% thing they do in superstar races and I think that could work as it's the same principle? Getting faster guys to race at the same time?

Edit: Just a random example;

70K+ - 500 points
65k + - 450 points
60k + - 400 points etc...

The frustrating thing with that would be the inevitable 69,999DR Lobby screwing everyone over

 

[Tidgney]

The frustrating thing with that would be the inevitable 69,999DR Lobby screwing everyone over

Yup but that's life at least you still get the 450 points over 400 for example and I think that would still be fine, but that would also help bottom of A to B, bottom of B to C etc. It definitely shouldn't be that a 70k DR lobby shouldn't be being beaten on points by a 50k DR lobby irrespective of position.

 

[sundaydriving]

Yes you get it all! but what do you mean by saying it would make the point tables closer overall?

After reducing the spread there wouldn't be such a huge gap between first and last when it comes to points, so a few wins wouldn't put you so far away. Rethinking that, its all relative so what difference would it really make to the gaps - they'd appear smaller but be just as far apart as before.

With the higher spread I think they want to incentivise wins, and punish dawdling at the back. I do think that makes it a bit unfair that slightly lower ranked rooms can have lower ranked players achieving bigger points hall through winning with less stiff competition than they would get if they were ranked slightly higher.

Maybe the spreads should be tightened. As mclarenlb suggests there might be a few unforseen consequences to changing it. I don't know the history of the FIA races through all the test seasons so I don't know if this is something they've already played with to get where they are today.

 

[Venster]

I am exactly the same but in high DRA I will get matched with much higher A+ drivers for fia.

Usually I am seeded 19 or 20 in a room so technically the slowest but even for let’s say a 12th place finish a B finishing in a around the top 10 would probably score higher points than I would in a much tougher environment.

The problem isn’t with the scoring though it’s with the actual amount of high DRA to DRA+ drivers there are, there basically isn’t enough to put everyone together where they should be especially if you factor in SR matching as well. If there was more players from cap A+ to A the matching would be better and the scoring system would naturally tier its self better.

 

[Lord Protector]

I am exactly the same but in high DRA I will get matched with much higher A+ drivers for fia.

Usually I am seeded 19 or 20 in a room so technically the slowest but even for let’s say a 12th place finish a B finishing in a around the top 10 would probably score higher points than I would in a much tougher environment.

The problem isn’t with the scoring though it’s with the actual amount of high DRA to DRA+ drivers there are, there basically isn’t enough to put everyone together where they should be especially if you factor in SR matching as well. If there was more players from cap A+ to A the matching would be better and the scoring system would naturally tier its self better.

You're right. After all only 1% of all the players are A+/S drivers... that suggests only the 1% is affected.

 

[HellzFire]

In my opinion the matchmaking should be based on the time trial lap times. This would actually make the time trials worth for something, nowadays with wear races it is kinda useless to me.

This would put people on similar pace in similar rooms.

Unfortunately A+ DR and S SR rankings are too easy to achieve, almost everyone is on +50k DR. You see rooms where pole position time is more than 1 second slower than others and getting the same amount of points. In my opinion this is really unfair.

 

[cjr3559]

Unfortunately, however deservedly, the system ultimately channels everyone into a very fine point where only the top 1% are routinely finishing at the top and getting the most points. Kind of a bummer isn’t it? Imagine how a D/D player feels. Like, what’s the point of all this?

 

[Lord Protector]

In my opinion the matchmaking should be based on the time trial lap times. This would actually make the time trials worth for something, nowadays with wear races it is kinda useless to me.

This would put people on similar pace in similar rooms.

Unfortunately A+ DR and S SR rankings are too easy to achieve, almost everyone is on +50k DR. You see rooms where pole position time is more than 1 second slower than others and getting the same amount of points. In my opinion this is really unfair.

I must disagree. I don’t use practice at all and I would hate to waste my day with “pre-qualifying” just as much I hate doing it for daily races. Players should be matched together based on their ranking in my opinion. It’s just the points that are given in an unfair way.

 

[Alpha Cipher]

Unfortunately, however deservedly, the system ultimately channels everyone into a very fine point where only the top 1% are routinely finishing at the top and getting the most points. Kind of a bummer isn’t it? Imagine how a D/D player feels. Like, what’s the point of all this?

Sorry, not being rude to both you and DR D drivers and it's an honest question, but the point being?

 

[Lord Protector]

Sorry, not being rude to both you and DR D drivers and it's an honest question, but the point being?

I wonder too. Isn’t the point of the championship to compete with others? I don’t do it to win it, I’m trying to have fun and compete with friends and my domestics and that’s why I created this thread. There are friends which are slower than me, have worse rank and yet have acquired more points throughout the championship.

 

[DriftMethod]

The current points system seems to be built around the very top drivers. Is there any question about the top 10 drivers deserving their final position? Top 30? Top 100? I'm wondering at what point the system breaks down.

I kind of like @Tidgney's idea of base points calculated from strength of field. I'll even go one further and suggest fixed points for position, so the only variable is the base points.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

I must disagree. I don’t use practice at all and I would hate to waste my day with “pre-qualifying” just as much I hate doing it for daily races. Players should be matched together based on their ranking in my opinion

Actually the fields would be matched with much less of a discrepancy between the race pace of the pole sitter and the lobbies last place entrant with using the average times of a predetermined number of laps run rather than matching by DR rank, single hot lap time or SR ranking.

I know that myself I have some tracks that I race on better than other circuits I may not like or know as well. Using time trial laps would then match me with other racers that had about the same average overall pace and should in theory result in better races.

When I hit the track my rank or the other persons ranking that I am racing against means little, the actual pace on track is what decides a good tight race not some arbitrary ranking number.

 

[Lord Protector]

Actually the fields would be matched with much less of a discrepancy between the race pace of the pole sitter and the lobbies last place entrant with using the average times of a predetermined number of laps run rather than matching by DR rank, single hot lap time or SR ranking.

I know that myself I have some tracks that I race on better than other circuits I may not like or know as well. Using time trial laps would then match me with other racers that had about the same average overall pace and should in theory result in better races.

When I hit the track my rank or the other persons ranking that I am racing against means little, the actual pace on track is what decides a good tight race not some arbitrary ranking number.

With limited amount of practice laps, sure.

The current points system seems to be built around the very top drivers. Is there any question about the top 10 drivers deserving their final position? Top 30? Top 100? I'm wondering at what point the system breaks down.

I kind of like @Tidgney's idea of base points calculated from strength of field. I'll even go one further and suggest fixed points for position, so the only variable is the base points.

i’d say only the fastest of fastest are out of the situation since they all have a chance of winning a race. That might be 30 players maybe?... rest of them rely on the matchmaking, I for example know that if I’m matched to the fastest, my top points are 1000...

 

[cjr3559]

Sorry, not being rude to both you and DR D drivers and it's an honest question, but the point being?

The point being competing in a futile environment where placing at the extreme echelon is stressed. I’m all for having fun at lower ranks, but isn’t the point of these championships to be #1 ‘Uber Alles’? If one continually finishes with no chance of ever being top dog, won’t they just quit? I’m coming from a realistic standpoint.

 

[Venster]

To a certain extent it doesn’t really matter about the points, realistically if we get into top split lobby’s and we aren’t winning then to be honest we aren’t seriously going to qualify for the live event anyway.

But I do agree that sometimes when I am in the higher split rooms anything above my qualifying position for me is a triumph and it would be nice if my points reflected that a bit more.

 

[Alpha Cipher]

The point being competing in a futile environment where placing at the extreme echelon is stressed. I’m all for having fun at lower ranks, but isn’t the point of these championships to be #1 ‘Uber Alles’? If one continually finishes with no chance of ever being top dog, won’t they just quit? I’m coming from a realistic standpoint.

Ahhh I see. It's true that realistically speaking, there's no real reason why mid-lower ranked people should join the championship. The daily races would quench the lower ranked players' thirst for racing anyway. But some people still attend the championships, despite all these setbacks, simply because it's fun
You're not wrong that the championship's end goal is to be the best of the best; the cipher percent of the alphas. But I remember a quote from a certain article (I'm currently looking for it as it's a nice read. I'll edit this post to refer to it later)

Sport mode is for everyone... for the average person it's not akin to the World Cup or the NBA, but rather your local backyard basketball court you go to everyday

So yes, while the end goal is to be the best, Sport mode is there to give you fun first and foremost

 

[Lord Protector]

Ahhh I see. It's true that realistically speaking, there's no real reason why mid-lower ranked people should join the championship. The daily races would quench the lower ranked players' thirst for racing anyway. But some people still attend the championships, despite all these setbacks, simply because it's fun
You're not wrong that the championship's end goal is to be the best of the best; the cipher percent of the alphas. But I remember a quote from a certain article (I'm currently looking for it as it's a nice read. I'll edit this post to refer to it later)

So yes, while the end goal is to be the best, Sport mode is there to give you fun first and foremost

I for a change, look at it like racing in real life. Slower players race in slower divisions, faster players race in faster divisions. And everyone except the most fastest players should try to get better and be the best. That's how it's meant to be I think.

 

[Alpha Cipher]

I for a change, look at it like racing in real life. Slower players race in slower divisions, faster players race in faster divisions. And everyone except the most fastest players should try to get better and be the best. That's how it's meant to be I think.

That's also another way to think about it
I disagree with this part tho

everyone except the most fastest players should try to get better and be the best.

I'm pretty sure the top dogs wouldn't make life so easy for us that they won't try to improve themselves

 

[Lord Protector]

That's also another way to think about it
I disagree with this part tho

I'm pretty sure the top dogs wouldn't make life so easy for us that they won't try to improve themselves

No yeah I forgot to add that the best guys should do their best to stay best

 

[DriftMethod]

The part PD got right was showing the Friends list ranking. That will keep people playing, because even though most of us can't compete with the Aliens, we can always try to beat someone.

It would be nice to have more information about the local rankings. Being from the USA, I see a ranking of only 3 people in my area, but not exactly sure where that area covers.