Fix the clutch!!

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Simple reason. If we could power shift it would be faster. Anyone without a clutch would have a disadvantage. So to keep it fair "it is what it is"

If it acts like button, then allow mapping the clutch on DS3 button and allow powershift. In real life I do it everyday but driving with clutch in GT5 is one of the least satisfying experiences through this game as is whole transmission model.

Downshifting to first gear while doing 200 kph? No problem, the car just bounces rev limiter. It neither damages the engine, nor sends rear wheels to slide.

Engine stall isn't done fully. Why?

Although they say that whole game engine is developed from scratch, they still heavily use the "old tricks". I mean very bad tricks.
 
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Downshifting to first gear while doing 200 kph? No problem, the car just bounces rev limiter. It neither it damages the engine, nor sends rear wheels to slide.

If you do with H pattern and the clutch in GT5 it doesn't just bounce off limiter, the revs go off the clock and scream a very high pitch (a long with trans whine), the rear wheels lock (assuming you're in a RWD) and try to turn you around into a big spin.

Only time does it do nothing but bounce off the limiter and nothing else drastic is when GT is controlling the clutch and not you, even if you did it with the H pattern shifter.
 
I always here about how flawed the tire model is on this forum, but everyone seems to forget the clutch! The clutch pedal might as well be replaced by a button, and considering the rest of the game has been thoroughly designed, something as easy to model as a clutch is a glaring omission. In games like Race On and GTR Evo, the clutch can be half released and you can feel the point at which the car 'bites' and release the clutch fully. In GT5, you have to immediatly release the clutch for a proper start, rather than how you would do it in a real car. I had some hope in the spec 2 that the clutch had been fixed, but alas, neither the clutch, nor the tire model were fixed...

Its times like these I'm glad I bought a Driving Force GT. Sorry to hear that it doesn't do what it should man - there's always GT6, which from the looks of things, will be on the PS3 for 2 years before it goes out of style (unless they hold off for the PS4, but those Sony bastards keeping the PS3 alive... ergh!).
 
If you think the clutch works fine, then im guessing you've NEVER driven a standard car in real life....

The OP is right. the clutch is just a button. It has no slip what soever. you're either in neutral or you arent. its garbage

I dont care if they fix it or not because its so horribly slow i dont use it to race online anyway

I drive a manual everyday and I can say that the clutch on GT5 feels pretty realistic.
Slip is there, slip is noticable and the travel is long (I use CSP).

Also, are you joking me, you're expecting realistic pedal feel/feedback with G27? That isn't gonna happen.
 
I use clutch whenever I'm racing a car with one (online or offline) and I have no problems with it. Sure it would be nice to have longer slip, but when racing you pretty much just kick the clutch so I don't think I'd have time to notice the slip.

Shifting from 1st to 2nd you just have to wait a split second before putting 2nd in. I don't think I lose any time in starts because of this. With some cars it's worse though, like the Acura NSX. The 2nd gear is so tall in that car I often miss 2nd and lose a lot of time but as I mainly race on the nürburgring I have plenty of time to make up for that one mistake.

I guess there's no way around the problem. Enabling clutch wear and allowing powershifting would be one solution and it would be great, but I'm content with the clutch as it is. Adds a nice new element to racing and keeps your feet busy 👍. Sure it can be frustrating when I miss a gear at a vital time but it's my own choice.

Jay
If you do with H pattern and the clutch in GT5 it doesn't just bounce off limiter, the revs go off the clock and scream a very high pitch (a long with trans whine), the rear wheels lock (assuming you're in a RWD) and try to turn you around into a big spin.

Only time does it do nothing but bounce off the limiter and nothing else drastic is when GT is controlling the clutch and not you, even if you did it with the H pattern shifter.

Funny how I haven't experienced this. The revs never go off the clock even if you shift to 1st at top speed. For a second you feel a slight lurch (as you do every time the revs have to forcibly go up when downshifting, hence why heel-and-toe is required when downshifting) but after that the engine bounces on the revlimiter and you're slowly losing speed.
 
OK8
Funny how I haven't experienced this. The revs never go off the clock even if you shift to 1st at top speed. For a second you feel a slight lurch (as you do every time the revs have to forcibly go up when downshifting, hence why heel-and-toe is required when downshifting) but after that the engine bounces on the revlimiter and you're slowly losing speed.

I have not idea why it does that for you. To 100% confirm for myself I just took my C5 Z06 (stock) out for a spin, took it to 200km/h (124mph) and put it in first using the clutch, the dial spins to 7000rpm and holds (max interior dial reading for this car) while the engine sound clearly screams way pass that, the rear tyres lock and the rear gets very squirmy.

No bouncing off limiter at all. Try it again. Just to make sure, the clutch must be used, H patten a lone wont work.

I would make a vid if I had the equipment for it, I am sure someone else could.

______________________

Anyway about the GT5 clutch operation, I don't have much issue with intentionally slipping the clutch, many say it is like a on/off switch but it is far from that for me. In this way it could still be improved still doesn't bother me.

What does bother me as others have mentioned is the 1st to 2nd miss-shifts, you have to noticeably take a break between that shift or it can miss, the other gears I generally don't have a problem with. What else I do have a issue with however is shifting (or the lack thereof) during wheelspin, really puts a hamper on drifting and clowning around. Oh, and in general the clutch when dropped doesn't "bite" quick enough, it constantly feels like a car with a worn or under spec clutch, most cars (untuned) should be able to go into wheelspin much quicker and violently when the clutch is dumped.
 
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So they took a more realistic clutch and screwed it up so DS3 users wouldn't be at a dissadvantage? Sounds like the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Of course a pad user should be at a dissadvantage, that's not how you drive a car. Now the wheel user is at a dissadvantage because they can't shift priperly. I got a G27 to use the clutch and h-shifter, now I HAVE to use paddles if I want to be competitive in a race. This sucks even more for drifting, being I'm much better at drifting with the clutch/shifter then with paddles. At least when it actually recognizes my shifts that is.

Please PD, fix the clutch.
 
It's stupid in my opinion dumbing down the clutch so the others aren't at a disadvantage!! Sounds to me that PD isn't trying to get the most realistic experience at all, but instead the most accessible one. That's why PC sims are a step above GT when it comes to realism. PD can still make the game accessible to everyone while having a hardcore sim. Just give both options. Hardcore and arcade.

I remember playing GTR Evo and it had a driving option of "automatic clutch". When set to ON you can shift with paddles or H pattern without use of the clutch. When OFF, you needed the clutch to shift. I don't think it would be hard for PD to implement this into the game.
 
JaySin85
So they took a more realistic clutch and screwed it up so DS3 users wouldn't be at a dissadvantage? Sounds like the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Of course a pad user should be at a dissadvantage, that's not how you drive a car. Now the wheel user is at a dissadvantage because they can't shift priperly. I got a G27 to use the clutch and h-shifter, now I HAVE to use paddles if I want to be competitive in a race. This sucks even more for drifting, being I'm much better at drifting with the clutch/shifter then with paddles. At least when it actually recognizes my shifts that is.

Please PD, fix the clutch.

More people play the game with a ds3 than a wheel, not everyone can have a wheel sett up in there homes, I would love one but its not possible due to the fact my ps3 is in the lounge area. Anyway I more than hold my own online against wheel users so they can't be much better other than feel a bit more realistic.
 
Doesnt matter what is more popular. It still shouldnt be dumbed down just so DS3 users can keep up. Online, pads hold the advantage most of the time anyways. Especially when it comes to drifting. So why do clutch users have to suffer?
 
Doesnt matter what is more popular. It still shouldnt be dumbed down just so DS3 users can keep up. Online, pads hold the advantage most of the time anyways. Especially when it comes to drifting. So why do clutch users have to suffer?

👍
 
JaySin85
Doesnt matter what is more popular. It still shouldnt be dumbed down just so DS3 users can keep up. Online, pads hold the advantage most of the time anyways. Especially when it comes to drifting. So why do clutch users have to suffer?

Am afraid wheel users are in the minority so pd or any company will always go with the majority, its standard business practice. If most people used wheels rather than ds3 it would be the other way round. I believe using a wheel can improve lap times by a fair amount (I have never used one so can only go off what I've read) so it would be a massive unfair advantage if a couple of people in a lobby were using wheels and leaving everyone else for dead, I think this just balances it out a little and in the end makes for better more competitive racing.
 
Am afraid wheel users are in the minority so pd or any company will always go with the majority, its standard business practice. If most people used wheels rather than ds3 it would be the other way round. I believe using a wheel can improve lap times by a fair amount (I have never used one so can only go off what I've read) so it would be a massive unfair advantage if a couple of people in a lobby were using wheels and leaving everyone else for dead, I think this just balances it out a little and in the end makes for better more competitive racing.

I would agree, but "breaking" one thing is not a good way to "fix" anything. Like I already stated, DS3 users have the advantage online the way it is, not like fixing this issue will ruin things. I'd rather only race against wheel users anyways.

Lastly, wheel users may be the minority, but I bet there are a lot more then one would think. Making them play with a "broken" clutch (especially when it used to work well), is poor business. It's a good way to push loyal fans away.

If the fixed clutch makes wheels faster online, then give the ds3 another advantage. I really don't think it would make things that bad though. Just give the ability to shift properly and not get frustrated at missed shifts that should be good shifts.
 
It is probably proportional to the rpm difference between a gear and its next one (again, can't try myself). Usually the 1>2 gear change is the one with the largest rpm difference.

The problem is that the gear change fails before you release the clutch. That is, you push the clutch in, select second and the game says you're still in neutral. Do this exact same thing with 3rd to 4th and there's no problem. It seems there is a minimum time limit required between engaging the clutch and selecting second gear. Sadly, it also seems to apply coming down as well, so decelerating into second gear (e.g. heel and toe) can be a nightmare, as can drifting (which is further compounded by wheel spin issues; the wheels must not be spinning when you try to engage another gear or it will fail in a similar manner.)
This is further hampered by the decision to force the player reselect the gear with the clutch in again, in order to recover from missed shifts. I.e., deselect gear, engage clutch, re-select gear, disengage clutch, continue. Ideally, you should just be able to dip the clutch and continue, because you've already taken your hand off the stick (there is no tactile feedback to tell you the gear wasn't found, so you can only tell by ear when the car revs freely instead of accelerating; in a real car, you'd feel that it hadn't gone in, and immediately retry with your hand still on the stick. A gear "grinding" sound or something would be a halfway point, but there's still no immediate reason to keep your hand on the gearstick.)

They really need to overhaul the driveline physics in general, though. You can stop on a hill (facing up it) in first gear, holding yourself with the brake (not the handbrake, obviously) with the clutch in; release the clutch and you'll stall. Now release the brake and enjoy the ride (it does that weird low-speed shimmy thing)!
Similarly, engaging first whilst already rolling backwards locks the driven wheels completely, whereas in reality, the momentum would probably turn the engine (how else would a jump-start even work?). Likewise for reverse when rolling forwards. Granted both of these things are likely to do some damage in the real world, probably mostly the gearbox and engine mounts, but that's not the point.

The clutch does not transmit enough torque when slipping, so starts are a nightmare of a balancing act; too much throttle and you over-rev (which is aesthetically annoying), too little and you'll definitely stall - the middle ground is very narrow (making this effectively a throttle axis issue, rather than clutch axis when the clutch is held still; of course, the excess slippage is more or less constant with clutch pedal travel before it transitions rapidly to "direct drive", causing the perceived "step" when you naturally try to feed in a bit more clutch, and a bit more, and too much...)
This also applies to gear changes themselves if there are large gaps in ratios or the engine is high in inertia; which is relevant to all in-game shifting methods and controllers (flat shifting would really show this up if it were allowed). The excess slippage / low torque transfer generally means gear changes take too long, and limit progress whenever the clutch is "slipping" - oddly, this could actually be an inertia issue, or at least be compounded by it.

Releasing the throttle when the wheels are spinning should result in them stopping almost immediately, but they gradually slow down instead (exacerbating the gearchange issue above). This smacks of dodgy tyre model, but I suspect incorrect drivetrain inertia is not helping either.

Hold the engine at a steady speed when stationary in neutral with the clutch in; releasing the clutch should cause the revs to drop momentarily as the gearbox catches up to the engine speed (constant mesh boxes only; but most are). Adding this modelling will give all sorts of other dynamic effects related to inertia, including "bunny-hopping", gear change "wobble" etc.

Over-revving the engine by changing down too soon does result in a clutch-slip effect at the rev-limiter, so that the engine will not spin any faster. It doesn't bounce, though. Because the clutch doesn't transmit enough torque, the effect of over-revving on the driven wheels is severely "nerfed"; this may also be why heel and toe rev-matching isn't that critical in GT5 (although 2.02 seemed to improve that slightly.) It's true that devices exist that can do this, but as far as I'm aware, they only really get used in motorcycles (and some four-wheeled motorsports, e.g. F1 - see "back-torque limiter" and "slipper clutch"). Further, cars with a frontward weight bias and rear-wheel drive will probably sooner skid the rear tyres before over-revving, but that would be catastrophic for your current heading.
This "magic rev-limiter" is not unique to GT5; most games, even many "proper sims", do it. This is no doubt partly because the sound samples would be hilarious / buggy at speeds above what they're "meant" to be played back at. Some games account / compensate for that by destroying the engine immediately when over-revved (boo). LFS allows over-revving, but it uses a "pulse-train" synthesis method for its engine sounds, so it doesn't sound weird at those elevated speeds.

Note that much of this affects most players, not just wheel users. 👍
 
Hearing about this ability to powershift in GT5P has convinced me to delete the game data for it and reinstall, just to see how it works. (I bought the game long after spec 3) If this is true, then thanks PD, for making me spend 250 bucks on something that is completely useless because a majority of users use DS3s on a "Real Driving Simulator". This clutch thing along with tire wear and low speed physics really ruins the game. :grumpy:
 
Flat shifting isn't a clutch issue, but a throttle issue. Just the same as a tweak to the clutch transition / axis progression isn't likely to mean that the 2nd gear timer has been removed, either. But, here's hoping anyway.
 
Pretty excited about this:

PlayStation Blog
Response of the clutch pedal when using the steering wheel controllers “G25 Racing Wheel”, “G27 Racing Wheel”, “T500RS” and “TH8RS” has been adjusted.


Hopefully it means we can flat shift now.[/url]


Just because they've "adjusted" it, doesn't necessarily mean the actual problems have been fixed. Remember this is PD we're talking about, & they've also adjusted various engine sounds via updates, making some sound worse.
 
VBR
Just because they've "adjusted" it, doesn't necessarily mean the actual problems have been fixed. Remember this is PD we're talking about, & they've also adjusted various engine sounds via updates, making some sound worse.


Exactly. I wish PDI were more specific in their patch notes (how has it been adjusted? Has the pedal's analog response been tweaked? Has the mis-shifting been fixed? Can we shift at full throttle?)

A lot of the fixes seem to have this issue: we just get told it has been changed, but not how. You can adjust things and make them worse (which is what happened when they said they would "adjust" opponent engine sounds, which changed them from being inaudible to being far too loud).
 
Flat shifting isn't a clutch issue, but a throttle issue. Just the same as a tweak to the clutch transition / axis progression isn't likely to mean that the 2nd gear timer has been removed, either. But, here's hoping anyway.
Is it? I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say, but as long as the engine is near redline, and you want to change to second, there is a chance you will go into neutral even when you completely let go of the accelerator. Granted, it's not entirely a clutch issue either.
VBR
Just because they've "adjusted" it, doesn't necessarily mean the actual problems have been fixed. Remember this is PD we're talking about, & they've also adjusted various engine sounds via updates, making some sound worse.
Either way, there's about a million problems with the clutch right now, so any "adjustments" made should be for the good.
 
Is it? I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say, but as long as the engine is near redline, and you want to change to second, there is a chance you will go into neutral even when you completely let go of the accelerator. Granted, it's not entirely a clutch issue either.

Either way, there's about a million problems with the clutch right now, so any "adjustments" made should be for the good.

The game sees that you're trying to engage a gear with the throttle wide open and says "nope". It was introduced in GT5:P to level the playing field, although gear changes remained faster than the "automatic clutch" could achieve (which is no longer true in GT5).

Second gear is a special case (see my lengthy, rambling post above from a while ago) in that, even if you lift the throttle, as long as you try to engage second gear within a certain time after having disengaged the clutch, the game also says "nope". This was introduced in GT5:P to reduce the advantage in standing starts, since first to second is usually wide, the time to change gear with auto-clutch was much longer. This is also much less of an issue in GT5.

Finally, any wheelspin whilst trying to engage gears: "nope". This one baffles me, although wheelspin should stop when you disconnect the engine from the driven wheels, so my guess is: inadequate driveline physics.



None of these things are specific clutch issues, they are deliberate control systems put in place by PD - although the inadequate clutch-plate / flywheel physics do contribute to the phenomena they control. So, generally, clutch pedal "response" tweaks alone are unlikely to make a difference, not even to the ability to pull away, because of the awful driveline physics. That is: input tweaks don't change the underlying physics.
 
The game sees that you're trying to engage a gear with the throttle wide open and says "nope". It was introduced in GT5:P to level the playing field, although gear changes remained faster than the "automatic clutch" could achieve (which is no longer true in GT5).

Second gear is a special case (see my lengthy, rambling post above from a while ago) in that, even if you lift the throttle, as long as you try to engage second gear within a certain time after having disengaged the clutch, the game also says "nope". This was introduced in GT5:P to reduce the advantage in standing starts, since first to second is usually wide, the time to change gear with auto-clutch was much longer. This is also much less of an issue in GT5.

Finally, any wheelspin whilst trying to engage gears: "nope". This one baffles me, although wheelspin should stop when you disconnect the engine from the driven wheels, so my guess is: inadequate driveline physics.



None of these things are specific clutch issues, they are deliberate control systems put in place by PD - although the inadequate clutch-plate / flywheel physics do contribute to the phenomena they control. So, generally, clutch pedal "response" tweaks alone are unlikely to make a difference, not even to the ability to pull away, because of the awful driveline physics. That is: input tweaks don't change the underlying physics.

Second and third "nope" are happening for the same reason: GT5 doesn't allow another gear if difference in engine revs between gears is too big. From 1st to 2nd there is usually quite a big gap in gear ratios, and GT5 wants you to wait a while, so the revs will drop. If you have wheelspin, usually you are bouncing off rev limiter, so changing to next gear your revs will also drop a lot. Probably if you take a car with custom gearbox and make the gear ratios between 2nd and 3rd or 3rd and 4th (cause it's faster to change) game will also say "nope".
 
I will definately NOT use the clutch on my G27 untill moment it is fixed.
It seems like there is Poliphony Digital defenition of clutch exists in this world...I've got my common sence of clutch wich is FAR away from theirs.
 
Even IF they fix it (and thats a big IF.. for all we know it could be a hardware issue also) the clutch is still purely novelty. It would not be an advantage in the game in any way and would really slow you down

Its fun, sure. And if you like to get down with ultimate realism thats cool too. JUst throwin up some facts
 
Second and third "nope" are happening for the same reason: GT5 doesn't allow another gear if difference in engine revs between gears is too big. From 1st to 2nd there is usually quite a big gap in gear ratios, and GT5 wants you to wait a while, so the revs will drop. If you have wheelspin, usually you are bouncing off rev limiter, so changing to next gear your revs will also drop a lot. Probably if you take a car with custom gearbox and make the gear ratios between 2nd and 3rd or 3rd and 4th (cause it's faster to change) game will also say "nope".

Well, the "timer" is now absent - you can shift directly to any gear no problem as long as you're off-throttle. I don't know when that changed, but it has. As has the requirement for the wheels not to be spinning, seemingly. Gear shifts are pretty snappy in general now. (At least in practice -> free run, where I tested the Amuse "Carbonara")

The only thing that remains is the throttle "nope", which needs to be tweaked to allow larger openings when selecting gears or taken out altogether as an option (i.e. "(dis)allow flat-shifts", or whatever.) Obviously, the check doesn't take effect on down-shifts, since you need to blip the throttle there - I think I saw someone complain that it did, but it doesn't (and never did).

I only really miss gears on down-shifting, (heel and toe), and no more often in GT5 than I did in iRacing - it's due to poor coordination between the gear lever and clutch pedal usually, for me. Live For Speed is a bit more forgiving than either of the other two, but I still occasionally miss on heel-toe. So, GT5 would definitely benefit from the other two games' approach to gear lever handling, in that as long as it's in a gate, the game will take that to mean you still want the corresponding gear. That would mean a clutch dip is all you need to continue, rather than have it force you to move the stick to neutral and re-select, all with the clutch in and throttle off (which is prone to fail again, and again...).

EDIT: tested with the Premium Esprit V8, too, and it's the same. There is some weirdness with the rev limiter which I could only repeat on changing from 2nd to 5th, which is a daft thing to try to do rapidly off the rev limiter anyway. However, I had a similar problem changing up from 2nd to 3rd when I slipped a wheel on the grass and hit the rev limiter, so something's up there (maybe the rev limiter interferes with the throttle reporting). I can also corroborate that flat-shifting is allowed under about 18 mph (i.e. 30 km/h), I'm not sure why that would be - perhaps to prevent penalising gear selection when moving off from a (near) standstill?
 
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To be fair, in *some* cars the gear whine is appropriate. But it is annoying when all I really want is to extend the top speed of my '69 Camaro to make it useful to race that the engine noise is completely drowned out by that annoying whine.

Whilst I agree it's annoying when it drowns out the engine noise, it's probably realistic. If you've ever driven a car with straight-cut gears you'll appreciate that they are very noisy.
 
Whilst I agree it's annoying when it drowns out the engine noise, it's probably realistic. If you've ever driven a car with straight-cut gears you'll appreciate that they are very noisy.
As I always say: GT6 should include a tuning part to allow the tweaking of only the final gear ratio, so that old cars such as vintage muscle cars can reach speeds useful in a race against other ones from other countries which have a gearing not just intended for 0-100 mph and quarter mile straight line performance. With this, the fixed close ratio gearboxes would make sense too.
 
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