Flav's Latest Complaint

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Of course it's because he's pissed off at Brawn - the new diffuser and associated costs might just be what breaks Renault's back and forces the out of the sport, seeing as there's no sponsor yet for 2010.

The point is that Brawn shouldn't be receiving FOM money in the first place, and that it's a courtesy of the other teams that they do. Flavio's point is that Brawn (and Williams and Toyota, but there's nothing to argue against them) forced others into more spendings because of their loopholes, and therefore, others shouldn't be "generous" towards them and use that money to cover the costs.

I don't agree with it, but he makes a point.
 
Of course it's because he's pissed off at Brawn - the new diffuser and associated costs might just be what breaks Renault's back and forces the out of the sport, seeing as there's no sponsor yet for 2010.
Contrary to what Flavio might believe, Formula One can survive without him. Scuderia Toro Rosso is for sale, and they've obviously been working on that for a while, so it's not going to end up in the hands of anyone. USGPE is set to join the grid, as is Hyundai. Renault or no Renault, the fact is that the 2010 championship can go ahead because the terms of the Concorde Agreement will be met. It'll be sad to see Renault go, yes ... but that doesn't mean Formula One dies with it.

The point is that Brawn shouldn't be receiving FOM money in the first place, and that it's a courtesy of the other teams that they do. Flavio's point is that Brawn (and Williams and Toyota, but there's nothing to argue against them) forced others into more spendings because of their loopholes, and therefore, others shouldn't be "generous" towards them and use that money to cover the costs.
Wasn't it you who pointed out that if the diffusers were declared illegal, it would be Brawn, Williams and Toyota under threat? Brawn because they're new and Branson's money will only go so far, Williams because their sponsors are dropping like flies, and Toyota because Tokyo is always threatening to pull the plug on their F1 program. It's a case of damned if you do and damned if you don't.

I'm pretty sure that any Formula One team is going to have part of their budget set aside for research and development. After all, new parts have to come from somewhere, don't they? The ban on in-season testing might mean those budgets have been cut, but no doubt the teams have money set aside for development; it's just common sense. The need for a new diffuser might eat into that budget a little, but I can't see teams blowing the whole lot on one part. I imgaine the diffuser itself wouldn't be to expensive - reprofiling the rear end of the car might - but I see no reason for Flavio to be complaining considering his double World Champion just parked himself on P2 for tomorrow's race.
 
Contrary to what Flavio might believe, Formula One can survive without him. Scuderia Toro Rosso is for sale, and they've obviously been working on that for a while, so it's not going to end up in the hands of anyone. USGPE is set to join the grid, as is Hyundai. Renault or no Renault, the fact is that the 2010 championship can go ahead because the terms of the Concorde Agreement will be met. It'll be sad to see Renault go, yes ... but that doesn't mean Formula One dies with it.

He never said he thinks that way. You've misunderstood his suggestion, and the situation around it.. He doesn't threaten with a pull-out, but it's a threat hovering above the 2010 operations.

Wasn't it you who pointed out that if the diffusers were declared illegal, it would be Brawn, Williams and Toyota under threat? Brawn because they're new and Branson's money will only go so far, Williams because their sponsors are dropping like flies, and Toyota because Tokyo is always threatening to pull the plug on their F1 program. It's a case of damned if you do and damned if you don't.

I'm pretty sure that any Formula One team is going to have part of their budget set aside for research and development. After all, new parts have to come from somewhere, don't they? The ban on in-season testing might mean those budgets have been cut, but no doubt the teams have money set aside for development; it's just common sense. The need for a new diffuser might eat into that budget a little, but I can't see teams blowing the whole lot on one part. I imgaine the diffuser itself wouldn't be to expensive - reprofiling the rear end of the car might - but I see no reason for Flavio to be complaining considering his double World Champion just parked himself on P2 for tomorrow's race.

The fact that Brawn is not-really-new is the only reason FOTA decided to give them their share of FOM money - but that's a courtesy. They don't have to, because the FIA considers them a new entry. His suggestion is this: The Brawn/Williams/Toyota teams got a loophole legalized that now costs the others significant amounts of money, so why should the other FOTA teams be kind to Brawn and give them a part of the FOM money that legally, they don't deserve?

As for my point about the possible pull-out of the Diffuser Three had it been declared illegal, it was in a different context altogether.

Of course they have a development budget - but it's dedicated to the regular updates. Such an important part, however, forces an effectively compete redesign of the car - gearbox, sidepods, engine-cover, suspension, front aerodynamics. This diffuser is now the biggest part of the budget. Ferrari estimated that it's costing them on the tune of $30-20m, and that because of the KERS and the double-deckers, their 2009 budget will have to be bigger than in 2008.

R&D, CFD, and wind-tunnel time alone to built an entirely new car (aerodynamically speaking) will cost a fortune. Adding the expenses of running gearbox-rigs, and entire-car rigs to test entirely new ways to package electronics inside the new sidepods, plus manufacturing at least a dozen new rear-ends for each development step... Only a fool wouldn't want some extra money to help cover these costs.
 
He never said he thinks that way. You've misunderstood his suggestion, and the situation around it.. He doesn't threaten with a pull-out, but it's a threat hovering above the 2010 operations.
I admit, I am putting words in his mouth a little. But it seems like the logical progression: Briatore is never happy with Formula One and thinks it's headed for trouble unless Renault is in front. Assuming this to be true, he' probably think the sport would die without Renault on the grid.

The fact that Brawn is not-really-new is the only reason FOTA decided to give them their share of FOM money - but that's a courtesy. They don't have to, because the FIA considers them a new entry. His suggestion is this: The Brawn/Williams/Toyota teams got a loophole legalized that now costs the others significant amounts of money, so why should the other FOTA teams be kind to Brawn and give them a part of the FOM money that legally, they don't deserve?
Funny that I can't recall him including Toyota and Williams in the same grouping as Brawn. He didn't even make mention of them in his comments, if I recall correctly. Yes, I know Williams and Toyota are not new teams the way Brawn are, but none of Briatore's comments suggest that FOTA should make an exception and not pay them, either. He's p!ssed that a driver he sought is actually doing well for himself - I think Flavio fancies himself as the Godfather of Formula One when it comes to the driver market - in a team that by rights would not normally be where he is (though he's completely ignoring the fact thar Brawn inherited its 2009 operations from Honda's development over the course of 2008).

As for my point about the possible pull-out of the Diffuser Three had it been declared illegal, it was in a different context altogether.
Would you care to define how the two are different?
 
I admit, I am putting words in his mouth a little. But it seems like the logical progression: Briatore is never happy with Formula One and thinks it's headed for trouble unless Renault is in front. Assuming this to be true, he' probably think the sport would die without Renault on the grid.

Currently, the sport would receive severe blows even if just one or two more teams pull out - and that's always the threat. FOM's track and TV contracts could be nulled.

HyundaiF1 is currently just a website, while USGPE is vapourware for now - and they'll be horribly uncompetitive unless they start track-testing soon. If the Red Bull drinks conglomerate stops sponsoring STR, that one's out too.

Funny that I can't recall him including Toyota and Williams in the same grouping as Brawn. He didn't even make mention of them in his comments, if I recall correctly. Yes, I know Williams and Toyota are not new teams the way Brawn are, but none of Briatore's comments suggest that FOTA should make an exception and not pay them, either. He's p!ssed that a driver he sought is actually doing well for himself - I think Flavio fancies himself as the Godfather of Formula One when it comes to the driver market - in a team that by rights would not normally be where he is (though he's completely ignoring the fact thar Brawn inherited its 2009 operations from Honda's development over the course of 2008).

^ That is where you've missed his point. He doesn't include Williams and Toyota because they're not new teams in any possible sense - so there's no excuse anywhere in the rule-book to withhold their share of FOM money. They are, however, in the same boat as Brawn - they're the ones that got the diffusers legalized.

Brawn may have inherited a ready-to-race team with an excellent car, and to most of us it's an old team (though many comfortably ignore that when saying "OMG NEW TEAM WINZ DEBUT!"), but legally considered, it's a new entry. It carries 22 and 23 on it's noses because they're a new entry (Force India should've carried 18 and 19, but since they already ordered their merchandise with 20 and 21, they got to keep that). As a legally-new entry, BrawnGP aren't entitled to a share of FOM money.

Currently, however, they're getting it - because other teams felt sorry or whatever other reasons - and Flavio's point is that they haven't been "playing fair", developing, running and legalizing a device that now costs other teams a fortune (because they thought it wasn't legal), and that therefore, the other teams shouldn't "play nice" either, and give Brawn only their legally-entitled share of FOM money: Nothing. Note that this sum is still only a tiny fraction of an F1 team's budget - on the tune of $30m.

Would you care to define how the two are different?

In one, the very principle on which the Brawn car was built was under threat. Yes, many parts on the BGP001 are clever - but they're all designed to work with the diffuser in harmony. Banning it would've meant a redesign of the entire rear end which, in their situation, just days ahead of the next race, would've been impossible. They'd miss a race or two, and then continue with underdeveloped cars - and return to Honda's usual place in the standings.

However, at the moment, it's just the question of getting $20-30m dollars more or less at the end of the season. It's not a question of pulling out of not, especially with their newfound success, and the deal with Branson to sell sponsorship-space on their cars. The team is already completely secured for 2009 - they're still funded by Honda, mind you, and the car is competitive and legal - so of all the under-risk-for-2010 teams, which includes Renault and STR, they're the safest bets for a company looking for 2010 title sponsorship.
 
He has a point, though. New teams aren't supposed to get their share of TV money - and officially, the FIA classifies them as a new team.

Brawn didn't go by the "spirits", so why should they get money that, as a technically-new team, they're not supposed to receive?


I disagree with it, but he does have a point.

Am I mistaken in remembering that Renault got the money that Benetton would have got - how is Honda to Brawn any different than that?
 
Am I mistaken in remembering that Renault got the money that Benetton would have got - how is Honda to Brawn any different than that?
They're winning when he isn't.
 
*such hurtful words, what's with these people?*
 
Am I mistaken in remembering that Renault got the money that Benetton would have got - how is Honda to Brawn any different than that?

Technicalities:

Honda officially pulled out, and their equipment was sold to Brawn - they count as a new team.

Minardi->Toro Rosso, Jordan->Midland->Spyker->Force India, Lotus->Stewart->Jaguar->Redbull, Benetton->Renault, and every other team bar Toyota and Super Aguri in the last decade were bought complete, ahead of the official entry list being completed. They never folded-then-bought.
 
Your starting to sound like a Flav fanboy :)

You forgot the Toleman team in the Benetton > Renault link.
 
I remember it, but it was ages ago..


As for the Flav point... No, I don't agree with Flav's claim - but I have to explain the situation, and the reason why that money doesn't "rightfully" belong to Brawn.
 
Technicalities:

Honda officially pulled out, and their equipment was sold to Brawn - they count as a new team.

Minardi->Toro Rosso, Jordan->Midland->Spyker->Force India, Lotus->Stewart->Jaguar->Redbull, Benetton->Renault, and every other team bar Toyota and Super Aguri in the last decade were bought complete, ahead of the official entry list being completed. They never folded-then-bought.

But its still a valid point against Flavio though....
 
Why?

(except for the fact that he's just nitpicking and generally annoying)

Well although "technically" being a new team...they aren't. You could argue that Renault were technically a new team too...
 
Nope, they were Benetton for a year under Renault ownership, too. The point is that once you pull out, as Honda did, it becomes a new team.

(and the worst trouble Benetton caused was make a few engineers play with the concept of a 111° V10, which was uncompetitive)
 
I fail to see the difference that makes to why it means they should be allowed the TV money or not.
 
New teams aren't awarded TV money. Old teams, or teams that changed owners, do. Simple as.
 
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