Force Feedback Needs Improvement

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wumpus

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Using an old and trusty Logitech DFP here (still working great since GT3). I've noticed there is no force feedback indicating loss of wheel tire traction. I'm not sure this was ever simulated in the GT series but after having played countless hours of GTR-2 on the PC with this wheel I can say this is sorely missed. It really helped me feel connected in a way I haven't felt with GT5 yet.

Does anyone know what I'm talking about?
 
Yes, I know exactly what you're talking about. I miss that too. GTR-2 had sublime force feedback - still a benchmark for a lot of things.

So, please PD, let us really feel the loss of grip.

DJ
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Do you mean on this : when car starts to oversteer you don't feel any force on the wheel if you rotate it in opposite direction? Its like there is no traction at all.
 
DrJustice
Yes, I know exactly what you're talking about. I miss that too. GTR-2 had sublime force feedback - still a benchmark for a lot of things.

So, please PD, let us really feel the loss of grip.

DJ
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I agree. Has a drifter, you don't feel **** like you did in prologue. It's there, but you can't feel it fast enough.
 
Yes! In LFS you can feel right away when the wheels are about to break loose and and make corrections before you ever see it on the screen. It makes driving on the limit so much more intuitive and less mentally taxing because you aren't concentrating constantly on visuals to give you the information you need.

Accurate physics is only one part of a sim, communicating them to the player is the rest.

GT5 is such a great game, I really hope they release updated FFB code at some point because it needs it more than anything else at this point in my opinion. I don't think this gets talked about nearly enough and PD needs to know so I hope they are listening :)
 
I get traction feedback on my Fanatec 911 Carrera wheel in GT5. If I'm about to loose the rear end the wheel will go from strong resistance to very light to almost no resistance, then the back kicks out. Or if I brake too late and too hard, the wheel will go into a series of small jerks hard back and forth indicating I've locked up the tires, and about to go into a spin. It's very hard to correct when the small jerks turn into one big jerk and i'm off. Puts a smile on my face when I can save it though. :)

It's not even close to perfect though, and I had to play around for a long time with it get it to where I want...which wouldn't be possible if the wheel didn't allow you to tweak on the fly. This is a case of hardware compensating for the software coding.
 
cschoei
Yes! In LFS you can feel right away when the wheels are about to break loose and and make corrections before you ever see it on the screen. It makes driving on the limit so much more intuitive and less mentally taxing because you aren't concentrating constantly on visuals to give you the information you need.

Accurate physics is only one part of a sim, communicating them to the player is the rest.

GT5 is such a great game, I really hope they release updated FFB code at some point because it needs it more than anything else at this point in my opinion. I don't think this gets talked about nearly enough and PD needs to know so I hope they are listening :)
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Agreed!!!!!!!! LFS is way better with FFB then GT5.
 
articzap
I agree. Has a drifter, you don't feel **** like you did in prologue. It's there, but you can't feel it fast enough.
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Do you feel like Prologue had better FFB?

When I drift in GT5 I feel like the FFB is actually doing the opposite of what it should. In a real car the wheel starts to get light in your hands and spins freely through your fingertips in the counter steer direction until you grab it or traction snaps back, It just feels natural. In GT5 I find myself clenching the wheel and actually pushing against the FFB to get the counter steer I need and by then its too late. It's really frustrating because the game is amazing and the physics are mostly good I just can't feel it all the time.

Like I said before I think LFS FFB is very good and I remember reading somewhere that the entire FFB code was written in something like 20 lines. Or maby that was rFactor, I'll try to find it.
 
cschoei
Do you feel like Prologue had better FFB?

When I drift in GT5 I feel like the FFB is actually doing the opposite of what it should. In a real car the wheel starts to get light in your hands and spins freely through your fingertips in the counter steer direction until you grab it or traction snaps back, It just feels natural. In GT5 I find myself clenching the wheel and actually pushing against the FFB to get the counter steer I need and by then its too late. It's really frustrating because the game is amazing and the physics are mostly good I just can't feel it all the time.

Like I said before I think LFS FFB is very good and I remember reading somewhere that the entire FFB code was written in something like 20 lines. Or maby that was rFactor, I'll try to find it.
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Prologue had way better FFB.
 
articzap
I agree. Has a drifter, you don't feel **** like you did in prologue. It's there, but you can't feel it fast enough.
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I thought it was just me.. Tried the S2000 drift car yesterday and every time I got into a decent drift the wheel went completely light and the car just ended up spinning.
Damn near impossible to make the little corrections.
 
Ya Pops
I thought it was just me.. Tried the S2000 drift car yesterday and every time I got into a decent drift the wheel went completely light and the car just ended up spinning.
Damn near impossible to make the little corrections.
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I'm not alone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I use to kill it in Prologue, now I can't do ****!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
I agree, i use a G27, you can feel the tyres and the grip, but you can never feel when you lose grip. makes it hard to adjust to. I've said many a time that i find GT5 harder to be consistant with than i do iRacing/Rfactor.
 
I agree that the FFB seems off, and also it seems GT4 had better FFB with the G27.
In GT5 there is a lack of feeling the road in most cases which feels very un-natural.
 
DrJustice
Yes, I know exactly what you're talking about. I miss that too. GTR-2 had sublime force feedback - still a benchmark for a lot of things.

So, please PD, let us really feel the loss of grip.

DJ
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It's been several years since I played GTR2 (lost my DVD a long time ago) so I unfortunately can't recall how good the force feedback was in that game.
More recent ISI engine sims though - like RACE 07 and the GTR Evolution add-on - have pretty numb and lifeless force feedback in my opinion (using my G25)

I belive the ISI engine sims in general use "canned" or fake force feedback effects (sometimes to good effect, sometimes not, I do vaguely seem to remember GTR2, GT Legends and the older F1 Challenge having better FFB than the more recent titles), rather than games like iRacing and LFS (and the rFactor RealFeel plugin, which is great with some car mods, terrible with others) that get the forces straight from the steering rack in the cars if I'm not mistaken?

iRacing sets the benchmark in force feedback in my opinion, but it's probably safe to say that the laser scanned tracks - where every little bump can be felt - play almost as large a part in that as the force feedback model itself.

Edit: Oh, and as far as GT5 go I've actually been quite satisfied with the force feedback. It feels alive and responsive to me, although perhaps lacking the ability to convey some of the finer details of car behaviour and road feel.
 
wumpus
Using an old and trusty Logitech DFP here (still working great since GT3). I've noticed there is no force feedback indicating loss of wheel tire traction. I'm not sure this was ever simulated in the GT series but after having played countless hours of GTR-2 on the PC with this wheel I can say this is sorely missed. It really helped me feel connected in a way I haven't felt with GT5 yet.

Does anyone know what I'm talking about?
Click to expand...

How exactly does that feel? I use a G25 and have FFB turned to the max and when my front wheels lose grip the wheel does this quick tug and then gets all floaty feeling. First time I ever felt that and I have prologue, that's never happened in prologue ever. But I still wish the FFB was stronger, GT4 had wickedly strong FFB on la Sarthe can be a workout just keeping the car straight.

Anyway OP I would like to know what feeling it is that you are supposed to feel when the front wheels lose grip.
 
I must be the only person who thinks the FFB in GT5 is miles ahead of prologue.

With a G25, the FFB in prologue was (for me) weak and uninformative. It made the cars feel very floaty as I couldn't tell what was going on with traction at all. Also the centering spring force was such a pain!!

I play GTR2. A lot. With highly tweaked G25 settings. A couple days before launch, I stuck in prologue to get back on the horse, and after a few months of solid GTR2 I had to turn off prologue EXCLUSIVELY because of the poor FFB. I had no feel for what the car was doing and it left me dreading the arrival GT5 I must say.

Skip forward to GT5 and I have to say I'm mighty impressed with the FFB. It's not GTR2 or LFS that's for sure, but it's definitely a step in the right direction. It's not as heavy in places as I'd like, but I can really get a decent sense of what the chassis and tyres are doing. Personally, I could never get the feel for drifting in Prologue, but in GT5 it just feels so intuitive to hold slides.

I understand this may only apply to G25 users, as there was a huge drop in wheel strength/feel from my DFP in Prologue, and I still maintain the FFB is highly improved. If PD ever get around to even bettering it however, I wouldn't complain. What strength do you guys have your FFB set at?
 
Dijital Majik
I must be the only person who thinks the FFB in GT5 is miles ahead of prologue...
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You aren't. It has admittedly been a few months since the last time I played Prologue, but unless my memory is even more hazy than I suspect (it's been downhill every since I turned 30 :p), I definitely also feel that GT5 has markedly improved force feedback compared to Prologue.

I also feel that the physics/handling have improved significantly, and obviously that usually goes hand in hand with what is conveyed through force feedback.

Yes, the FFB in GT5 is indeed no iRacing or LFS, but it's the best I've felt yet in a console racer.
 
carcoll13
I agree that the FFB seems off, and also it seems GT4 had better FFB with the G27.
In GT5 there is a lack of feeling the road in most cases which feels very un-natural.
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I thought the FFB in GT4 was hopeless, GT5 is a massive improvement, its not bad its just not really that good either.

iRacing, Netkar and in some cases Rfactor with Realfeel is on a completely different level.


My opinion anyway, cant feel the tyres lose grip is a huge part missing from the immersion aspect and feel of the car.
 
Bigbazz
I thought the FFB in GT4 was hopeless, GT5 is a massive improvement, its not bad its just not really that good either.

iRacing, Netkar and in some cases Rfactor with Realfeel is on a completely different level.


My opinion anyway, cant feel the tyres lose grip is a huge part missing from the immersion aspect and feel of the car.
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I completley agree. GT5's FFB is extremely numb, static and unimmersive...and absolutely kills the simulation side of the game IMO. Some cars (moreso than others) have a really floaty, almost hovercraft like feeling to them to, especially when you use lesser grip tires - this feeling combined with the relative lack of meaningful communication through the wheel makes for a pretty poor/disconnected driving experience.

GT5's FFB feels like something you would find in a game from 20 years ago, when you compare the quality of FFB to iRacing's, Netkar Pro or even Rfactor w/the real feel mod.

I still can't believe how hyped up this game is in terms of providing a driving experience anywhere near the level of iRacing's, Netkar Pro or even Rfactor w/ the real feel mod...because in all honesty it's nowhere near :sick: With that said, I don't think I will be playing GT5 for too long.
 
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SavageEvil
How exactly does that feel? I use a G25 and have FFB turned to the max and when my front wheels lose grip the wheel does this quick tug and then gets all floaty feeling. First time I ever felt that and I have prologue, that's never happened in prologue ever. But I still wish the FFB was stronger, GT4 had wickedly strong FFB on la Sarthe can be a workout just keeping the car straight.

Anyway OP I would like to know what feeling it is that you are supposed to feel when the front wheels lose grip.
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For example if I'm in the middle of a right turn the lateral G-Forces can be felt in force feedback pushing the steering wheel to the left which I have to counter and it all feels pretty OK. If I start to exceed the limits of traction this force pushing the wheel to the left should lessen and with complete loss of traction the force should be negligible only to be reapplied once traction is regained.

The way it is now the same force appears to be used whether or not my tires have full traction or complete loss of traction and as far as I can tell there is no force feedback to signify the edge of traction..I can only use the squealing sounds from the game to help in this.

I'm also simplifying. What I experienced with GTR and GTR2 (and Legends etc) indicating loss of traction was something like a really fast alternation between proper counter force and no force which made the wheel shudder a bit like it should and was perfectly in sync to the sounds you would hear from your tires squealing.

Using a DFP..hopefully I don't have to buy one of these newer wheels for better FF implementation.
 

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