Force feedback negative for lap times?

[mister dog]

I don't have that much experience with wheels (bought my first a couple of months ago, it's a fanatec CSR), so i have a question. Yesterday me and my mate were hotlapping until the early hours with Shift 2 on Francorchamps, and after more than an hour trying to break each other's time with the E30 we made it to a 2:56 (which was near the limit of what we could achieve with that car).

Then my friend accidentally jacked out the wire connecting the pedals to the wheel; which meant it lost all of it's Force Feedback (is this a bug, or is it normal you can loose FF and have to recalibrate the wheel again)? Anyway after that we kept on playing with no FF and all of a sudden we were breaking our lap times by 5 seconds , after i recalibrated and put it back on we were at 2:56 again...

What are your toughts on this gentlemen? Please enlighten me

 

[Gunstar]

No resistance would seem to be an advantage. Not being a hardcore "racer" tho I would rather the immersion of FFB than the advantage of no FFB, however in a competition all bets are off.

 

[luizsilveira]

I've heard of people who had a ffb wheel but turn the ffb off to race because they prefer it. They find the feedback to be misleading and prefer to rely on other cues (sound etc.).

Imo, what might be happening is that you are misreading the ffb cues. For example, you think the car is out of grip because the wheel got light but there is still a bit of grip left at that stage and you could have done the turn a bit faster.

Alternatively, yeah, you could be using too strong a ffb and then "fighting" it. That won't make you fast. Try using very light ffb - just enough that you get the feeback of what's going on with the grip, but not enough to make you feel like you're working out. That should help.

 

[mister dog]

I've heard of people who had a ffb wheel but turn the ffb off to race because they prefer it. They find the feedback to be misleading and prefer to rely on other cues (sound etc.).

Imo, what might be happening is that you are misreading the ffb cues. For example, you think the car is out of grip because the wheel got light but there is still a bit of grip left at that stage and you could have done the turn a bit faster.

Alternatively, yeah, you could be using too strong a ffb and then "fighting" it. That won't make you fast. Try using very light ffb - just enough that you get the feeback of what's going on with the grip, but not enough to make you feel like you're working out. That should help.

I adjusted it yesterday on the wheel itself from 100% to 50 and now it's fine. I bet if i turn it completely off i would be probably a lot faster, but this is the compromise i chose between speed and realism.

It makes a big difference tough, especially playing Shift 2 as the FFB is strong in that game.

 

[luizsilveira]

I adjusted it yesterday on the wheel itself from 100% to 50 and now it's fine. I bet if i turn it completely off i would be probably a lot faster, but this is the compromise i chose between speed and realism.

It makes a big difference tough, especially playing Shift 2 as the FFB is strong in that game.

I don't know these games and nowadays I play Rfactor almost exclusively. But imho if you would drive faster without ffb it's because: 1) the game has bad ffb, so it's a bad game anyway; 2) you don't have the ffb set properly. This could be on the wheel or via software. Setting the ffb in a moddable game like rfactor is an art in itself, for example; 3) you are misreading what the ffb is trying to tell you.

Gone are times in which the ffb transmitted only bumps on the road and rumble strips while completely ignoring grip. That was the case not too long, only a few years ago. Today you can feel exactly the sweet spot of grip, or feel an understeer and more importantly an oversteer as it happens and either control it, correct it, or catch it before it's out of control. I can't understand how feeling the exact limit of grip, even on the front and on the back wheels separately, wouldn't make you faster.

 

[mister dog]

I don't know these games and nowadays I play Rfactor almost exclusively. But imho if you would drive faster without ffb it's because: 1) the game has bad ffb, so it's a bad game anyway; 2) you don't have the ffb set properly. This could be on the wheel or via software. Setting the ffb in a moddable game like rfactor is an art in itself, for example; 3) you are misreading what the ffb is trying to tell you.

Gone are times in which the ffb transmitted only bumps on the road and rumble strips while completely ignoring grip. That was the case not too long, only a few years ago. Today you can feel exactly the sweet spot of grip, or feel an understeer and more importantly an oversteer as it happens and either control it, correct it, or catch it before it's out of control. I can't understand how feeling the exact limit of grip, even on the front and on the back wheels separately, wouldn't make you faster.

Well for starters you can't compare Shift 2 with games like Rfactor etcetera, as they are real sims and this is just a fun racing game with descent physics

On a 100% FFB, the wheel feels heavy and your arms even hurt a bit from counter resisting the wheel for a couple of laps. That's why in Shift 2 I think lowering it makes it easier on the arms, and as such it improves your lap times a lot.

I wonder though if this "rule" or whatever you could call it, applies to sim racers also. Seeing what you say on full FFB you don't have that heavy feeling, and it actually aids you to get the perfect lines no?

 

[luizsilveira]

I wonder though if this "rule" or whatever you could call it, applies to sim racers also. Seeing what you say on full FFB you don't have that heavy feeling, and it actually aids you to get the perfect lines no?

Good ffb should aid your lap times, yes. But "full" ffb will just make you tired.

A road/GT car going straight has the tendency to keep going straight. Every time you turn in, you are struggling against the ffb. If the centering force of the wheel is strong this will get you tired real quick for no reason (i.e., not contributing to lap times).

In this case, yes, you could say "realistic" ffb doesn't necessarily make you faster, and might as well slow you down. A car with a mechanic steering system at 150+ km/h is really really heavy to turn, and simulating this extra resistance will not make you any faster at all and will just make you pretty tired real quick.

I'm sounding confusing I think. In short: Imho, (good/precise) ffb helps a ton towards faster lap times; Stronger ffb doesn't and is more a matter of preference (or balance with realism if you wish).

 

[Crispy]

I adjusted it yesterday on the wheel itself from 100% to 50 and now it's fine. I bet if i turn it completely off i would be probably a lot faster, but this is the compromise i chose between speed and realism.

It makes a big difference tough, especially playing Shift 2 as the FFB is strong in that game.

Using a Fanatec wheel never turn the onboard wheel settings for FFB down. This actually stops the FFB in it's full range. For example, strong grip feelings may be at 80% FFB, so if you change it to 70% on the wheel then you cutoff the feeling of grip.

The best thing to do is to change the FFB settings on the game itself. This adjusts the strength, and does nothing to eliminate the details that you feel above a certain strength. In short, the wheel is providing the same strength at 100% and 50% on the onboard settings, just snipping out FFB effects that go above 50% in strength. This gets rid of details that may help you be faster. When you set the in-game settings to 50% FFB, the strength gets reduced to 50%. The wheel still provides the full 100% range of FFB and all the small details that come with it, but with a more controllable lighter less strong feel.

I personally run my CSR Elite with 100% on the onboard tuning, with about 40-60% on the in-game. I found that I would fight the wheel way too much, making turning slow, and causing many spin-outs. (The FFB controlled me) Now with a lower setting in-game, I can feel every small detail adding to immersion (And making me faster. I can feel rumblestrips on the edges of some parts of the Nurb, making me go off into the grass less) yet have a perfectly controllable FFB that I don't have to fight.

 

[mister dog]

Using a Fanatec wheel never turn the onboard wheel settings for FFB down. This actually stops the FFB in it's full range. For example, strong grip feelings may be at 80% FFB, so if you change it to 70% on the wheel then you cutoff the feeling of grip.

The best thing to do is to change the FFB settings on the game itself. This adjusts the strength, and does nothing to eliminate the details that you feel above a certain strength. In short, the wheel is providing the same strength at 100% and 50% on the onboard settings, just snipping out FFB effects that go above 50% in strength. This gets rid of details that may help you be faster. When you set the in-game settings to 50% FFB, the strength gets reduced to 50%. The wheel still provides the full 100% range of FFB and all the small details that come with it, but with a more controllable lighter less strong feel.

I personally run my CSR Elite with 100% on the onboard tuning, with about 40-60% on the in-game. I found that I would fight the wheel way too much, making turning slow, and causing many spin-outs. (The FFB controlled me) Now with a lower setting in-game, I can feel every small detail adding to immersion (And making me faster. I can feel rumblestrips on the edges of some parts of the Nurb, making me go off into the grass less) yet have a perfectly controllable FFB that I don't have to fight.

Thanks for the tip, i'll try it that way tonight

 

[Crispy]

Thanks for the tip, i'll try it that way tonight

No problem! Always glad to help!

 

[skazz]

The only way I managed to get my Fanatec Porsche GT2 wheel (same motors as CSR but heavier rim) fast enough so I wasn't fighting in the whole time was:
- drift mode on 4 or even 5
- spr to -3
- dpr to -3
(Or in PC drivers turn damping down as low as possible)

This makes the wheel a lot less heavy to turn and gives you much more chance to react quickly. The only downside is that drift mode does cause extra oscillation on straights, but holding the wheel while driving in a straight line is a small price to pay for the benefits.

 

[luizsilveira]

The only way I managed to get my Fanatec Porsche GT2 wheel (same motors as CSR but heavier rim) fast enough so I wasn't fighting in the whole time was:
- drift mode on 4 or even 5
- spr to -3
- dpr to -3
(Or in PC drivers turn damping down as low as possible)

This makes the wheel a lot less heavy to turn and gives you much more chance to react quickly. The only downside is that drift mode does cause extra oscillation on straights, but holding the wheel while driving in a straight line is a small price to pay for the benefits.

I don't know that wheel specifically but to my (very limited) knowledge these spring and damper values could (should?) always be set to zero or minimum. Same for centring force. What you do want (like Crispy pointed out) is the overall ffb effects on 100% (or higher for the Logitechs, like 105%).

The thing is: spring, damper and centring are all effects added by the wheel (or its driver/software) post-game to fill in the gaps. If your game is good and has decent ffb you don't want that. You want to only feel the forces the game itself is producing, and nothing else.

Only if the game has horrible/unusable ffb you want to bring the springs and dampers up so at least the wheel will produce the effects.

Take centring force for example. I don't think the Fanatecs have it but the Logitechs do, and it's a good example. Take it with a grain of salt because it's afaik. This centring is a force the wheel will put itself towards the centre regardless of the forces being sent by the game. But the game itself shouldn't send something like "centring force". A good game will send information depending on suspension and grip. This might be a centring force (thing fast turn within grip limits), counter-steering force (rear end loose/spin) or even no force (severe understeer). In a nutshell: if you mix all these forces the game is sending with the wheel-generated forces, you won't have the most precise ffb.

I could try to elaborate more but I have the tendency to write too much. In short: set overall ffb effects and set to max. Follow Crispy's advice and attenuate the forces with in-game settings. Then set springs, damper and centre to zero or minimum and go for a spin. Test wide turns on a straight (centring effect based on caster/suspension), understeer, oversteer, lock wheels under breaking (steering should get light or pull to one side if only one wheel locks), etc.

 

[LeMansAid]

When I tried Shift 2 I couldn't get much of a feeling of ffb at all, even with maximum settings in game and on wheel. Considering that alone, I personally wouldn't think of it as a good game to gauge ffb vs no ffb in regards to lap times.

It should be: the greater the dynamic range and detail of ffb information the better, but only up to the point where the upper end of the range begins to have physical repercussions.

 

[MozzMann]

I do not believe for an instant that your times magically dropped by 5 seconds because of no FFB , that just isn't likely to occur, unless you have the FFB settings WAY too high in the first place.

 

[mister dog]

I do not believe for an instant that your times magically dropped by 5 seconds because of no FFB , that just isn't likely to occur, unless you have the FFB settings WAY too high in the first place.

You calling me a liar boyyy? Like i said both me and my mate did low 2:50's all of a sudden when there was no FFB in my CSR.

Anyway could be that the FFB was indeed way too high though.

 

[luizsilveira]

You calling me a liar boyyy? Like i said both me and my mate did low 2:50's all of a sudden when there was no FFB in my CSR.

Anyway could be that the FFB was indeed way too high though.

I think he's just saying that you could be mislead by numerous other factors. Countless times I thought I was consistent and all the sudden improved 0.5s after a setup change. I'd think my setup skills were miraculous, only to go look into the telemetry and see the improvement had absolutely nothing to do with the setup change. Happens all the time.

 

[mister dog]

I think he's just saying that you could be mislead by numerous other factors. Countless times I thought I was consistent and all the sudden improved 0.5s after a setup change. I'd think my setup skills were miraculous, only to go look into the telemetry and see the improvement had absolutely nothing to do with the setup change. Happens all the time.

.... We did more than 20 laps and our times were constantly in the 2:57's near the end, then i reached 2:56 with a lap on the limit. Mate pulls out cable by mistake, we loose FFB and the NEXT lap we are both 4-5 seconds faster. You are talking about half a second, that's light years away from 5 to be frank.

Has nothing to do with skills in this case, we aren't magically gonna find 5 seconds no are we?

 

[luizsilveira]

Just to clarify it, 0.5s is a lot - of course depending on track, how consistent you are, and how much you are on the limit.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Maybe it is a case of driving to a lower limit due to what the FFB is telling you and maybe limiting in how fast your can turn wheel, also input lag might mean you are receiving the feedback later potentially. Generally on circuit racing, it should be faster with FFB for most games. I've got Shift 2, yet to play it with wheel so might try it one day soon.

 

[mister dog]

Seems like i'm alone here with my conclusion
Anyway it's probably due to Shift 2 having the FFB too strong, so when you are driving a heavier saloon you really got to work the wheel which, on a long circuit like spa, costs you a couple of tenths every corner resulting in those 5 seconds in the end.

Without the FFB i could almost turn in with my pinkie, but that just isn't realistic even tough it makes you faster in certain games.

 

[skazz]

I don't know that wheel specifically but to my (very limited) knowledge these spring and damper values could (should?) always be set to zero or minimum

Just to explain since you've never used a Fanatec wheel: spring/damper can be set between -3 and +3 on wheel, which has effect in console games, or equivalent settings in the PC drivers.
As you now understand, I have them set as low as they go, since the Fanatec Porsche wheels have a LOT of inherent damping. Since they piggy-back on the G25 profile in GT5/6 which is a wheel with very low internal damping they end up feeling extremely heavy because Gran Turismo applies more damping than they need, so reducing damping on wheel to minimum is necessary.

 

[mister dog]

Just to explain since you've never used a Fanatec wheel: spring/damper can be set between -3 and +3 on wheel, which has effect in console games, or equivalent settings in the PC drivers.
As you now understand, I have them set as low as they go, since the Fanatec Porsche wheels have a LOT of inherent damping. Since they piggy-back on the G25 profile in GT5/6 which is a wheel with very low internal damping they end up feeling extremely heavy because Gran Turismo applies more damping than they need, so reducing damping on wheel to minimum is necessary.

Thanks for another tip, my CSR is basically the same as the Porsche wheels. I noticed the guy from inside sim racing putting springs and dampers on -3 also for shift 2.

Does it contribute that much to the heavy feeling, i was under the assumption that damping forces just made your car handle better? Also do you keep FFB on wheel at 100 always?

 

[luizsilveira]

Why would damping forces make the car handle better? Damping forces serve to prevent movement of the wheel.

 

[mister dog]

Why would damping forces make the car handle better? Damping forces serve to prevent movement of the wheel.

Are we talking about damping forces in a car, or damper settings in your racing wheel?

 

[luizsilveira]

Are we talking about damping forces in a car, or damper settings in your racing wheel?

Force feedback wheel is what we are talking about here, no?

Damping forces on your force feedback wheel are those meant to prevent you from turning the wheel freely. More info here (for Logitech wheels, but of course the concepts apply across the board). [Edit to quote the relevant bit:]

"Damper forces slow down the movement of the gaming device in a particular direction. Examples of damper forces would be items such as water or mud. By moving the slider beyond 100%, the damper forces get stronger, and the gaming device will feel more sluggish when you encounter a damper force. By moving the slider below 100%, damper forces will not affect your gameplay as much." [/edit]

Damping forces in a car have nothing to do with this. Dampers do not prevent movement of the steering wheel but dampen the movement of the springs.

 

[mister dog]

Force feedback wheel is what we are talking about here, no?

Damping forces on your force feedback wheel are those meant to prevent you from turning the wheel freely. More info here (for Logitech wheels, but of course the concepts apply across the board). [Edit to quote the relevant bit:]

"Damper forces slow down the movement of the gaming device in a particular direction. Examples of damper forces would be items such as water or mud. By moving the slider beyond 100%, the damper forces get stronger, and the gaming device will feel more sluggish when you encounter a damper force. By moving the slider below 100%, damper forces will not affect your gameplay as much." [/edit]

Thanks, as i'm still a wheel virgin i didn't know this, i was thinking it was an add on to spring and damper stiffness in game to be honest.

Damping forces in a car have nothing to do with this. Dampers do not prevent movement of the wheel but dampen the movement of the springs.

You don't say? I think you misinterpreted my post there, i was asking you which one you were talking about...

 

[MozzMann]

I haven't seen whether the original comment was related to PC or console and as my remarks were aimed specifically at the PC setup they may not be applicable.

You fellas need to actually understand how FFB is applied and the fundamental differences between console version of a PC title, the way a PC calculates and applied FFB is completely different and IMHO completely erroneous to the way that PC platform calculates and applies, what will also have a huge effect is how the original FFB was set , remember that there should be NO centering at rest but centering when starting to move this will depend on the Car driven but in the case of Console's and the FFB applications there I can't help my comment was based on PC and PC only application of FFB. and it's tuning .
Now to clarify I'd suggest that your times might be 5 sec faster with FFB OFF because it has be set up very badly in the first place and your fighting the FFB and your times were **** as a result , so reducing the FFB settings or in your case turning it off was a vast improvement, this leads me to the conclusion that you most likely do not have the FFB and controller set up realistically as possible within the game parameter's you have to work with.


luizsilveira Dampers as in suspension yes they control the suspension but damping when applied to the steering (Logitech Wheels) helps prevent you from over correcting but again how this relates to Console set up I can't say

 

[mister dog]

^ sorry to not clarify that earlier, I play the game on a Xbox with a CSR.

 

[MozzMann]

^ That is likely the big reason why IMHO consoles just don't seem to have the same realistic behavior as many sim platforms unfortunately.