Forced Induction+Fuel Economy?

nd 4 holden spd

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So I have a question for all the car buffs out there (or anyone that knows a bit on this topic). It's probably common knowledge to most by now that manufacturers have begun using forced induction combined with smaller engines to achieve better fuel economy than bigger engines. My question is can better/equal fuel economy be achieved using forced induction over natural aspiration? Surely running a low boost setting would help the engine compress air more efficiently and thus achieve better fuel economy, without going overboard on power and needing more fuel. I read in a magazine known as Street Commodores that they had a project car which was a turbo V6 Commodore, which I think was running 11sec passes all day long while achieving better fuel economy than your average standard V6 Holden. So it sounds possible, and I want to know if it's really possible or whether some people are just getting fluke setups.
 
Well hey, I know where this idea came from :sly:

Let's see what they have to say...
 
It's more than possible to get better power and at minimum the same fuel economy with a turbo... So long as the car is tuned to be properly leaned out when the boost isn't there and the driver keeps their foot out of it.

And, of course, a turbo four-cylinder that can make 450hp can be made to get better fuel economy by a long shot than a less powerful V6 or V8 both in the city and on the highway. How? Keeping the boost away, and only providing enough fuel to get the car up to speed and maintain (Maintaining 70mph takes under 100ft-lbs of torque in almost any vehicle).

But, unfortunately, most of the time when a vehicle is tuned for more performance, fuel economy gets flipped the bird completely, and tuning to keep fuel economy at low loads up is ignored...
 
Thanks RJ, but that doesn't entirely explain everything. How was it that that turbo Commodore could get almsot better fuel than an average aspirated. And if supercharged would it be possible to have 2 boost settings- one for decent economy daily driver stuff, and one for performance driving.
 
Well, it's like I said, the car was probably tuned so that fuel was only added when boost was, rather than at all times, so during cruising/light driving, it did as good as an NA car as it was literally running AS an NA car, possibly with more optimized of timing and an air/fuel ratio that was maybe a little leaner than stock (stock is usually somewhat rich).
 
Doesn't forced induction = higher compression = hotter explosion? I'd think that you'd be able to lean out the mixture because of that.
 
Fuel economy and efficiency are related, so are efficiency and power. Basically, by making the engine run leaner by effectively upping compression you get a better burn, thus more power from the same amount of fuel.

Making a high performance turbo get good gas mileage is mostly a function of the fuel management, and keeping it at the just the right lean amount to function but not to hotly.

Most of the best gas mileage cars in the world use turbos, and some crazy guy combined a turbo with an interheater to improve mileage. It worked, but reliability became a huge issue from the heat.
 
EDIT: Been treed.

Edit X2: Yeah, Smokey Yunick. Hot Vapor Cycle Engine. Boosted power and fuel efficiency. The turbo didn't provide boost, it just helped heat the intake charge further.
 
a boosted engine also makes better torque usually. that means you can cruise at lower rpms.

i notice the difference in rpms when my car is loaded. add two people to the driver and it runs at a slightly higher rpm. with boost it'd still have the cojones to pull at lower rpm
 
So you have to tune it so less fuel is injected at lower RPMs with higher compression to achieve similar power? Then you'd be taking away from a good power curve making it worse just for economy? Then with a supercharger running a boost setting so low that it only boosted power by what it took away- how would that effect economy. Basically what I'm asking is- if you ran 2 different boost settings on your supercharger- one that was higher boost for track days and races, and then your daily driver setting that didn't really improve power over NA power levels, how would the daily driver setting effect economy? Sorry if I'm being a noob, but supercharging is an option for me if I could have one setting for daily driving that didn't increase running costs, and one setting for track days. Same goes for a friend of mine.
 
So basically just get a supercharger to improve compression and lessen the amount of fued used.

I like that, but a 2-setting blower is IMO the best way, if such a monster exists. I hope they do!
 
So you have to tune it so less fuel is injected at lower RPMs with higher compression to achieve similar power? Then you'd be taking away from a good power curve making it worse just for economy? Then with a supercharger running a boost setting so low that it only boosted power by what it took away- how would that effect economy. Basically what I'm asking is- if you ran 2 different boost settings on your supercharger- one that was higher boost for track days and races, and then your daily driver setting that didn't really improve power over NA power levels, how would the daily driver setting effect economy? Sorry if I'm being a noob, but supercharging is an option for me if I could have one setting for daily driving that didn't increase running costs, and one setting for track days. Same goes for a friend of mine.

One question: How the hell would you run two boost settings on a supercharger?

Its driven directly off the engine. Turbos are driven by exhaust. Superchargers leach power from the engine and its best to just not run them at all to preserve fuel economy.

A turbo is a completely different story on boost control and such.
 
@Azumen
Are you talking about the Fiero GT? Cuz I think that's the car that used that idea that you are talking about?

*Edit It was Henry Yunick that made an engine like that using the Fiero engine


An interesting article was published in the May 1984 Car and Driver about Henry "Smokey" Yunick and his Hot Vapor Fiero. Smokey Yunick reportedly produced 250 hp (186 kW) from the four-cylinder engine using heated fuel pumped through a turbine "homogenizer" and an exhaust-heated "heat exchanger". In this instance, the power was reportedly doubled as well as the fuel economy. A 14 second 0-60 mph car became a 5.9 second 0-60 mph car. This concept is based on the theory of the adiabatic engine, where no heat is gained or lost during the process
 
One question: How the hell would you run two boost settings on a supercharger?

Its driven directly off the engine. Turbos are driven by exhaust. Superchargers leach power from the engine and its best to just not run them at all to preserve fuel economy.

A turbo is a completely different story on boost control and such.

So what, you can't run multiple settings on a blower? Should be able to I think.
 
Well, it's like I said, the car was probably tuned so that fuel was only added when boost was, rather than at all times, so during cruising/light driving, it did as good as an NA car as it was literally running AS an NA car, possibly with more optimized of timing and an air/fuel ratio that was maybe a little leaner than stock (stock is usually somewhat rich).

Just to add - you're also increasing the volumetric efficiency of the engine by adding forced induction, especially with turbos since you're utilizing burnt exhaust gases. When the turbos aren't generating positive boost, the amount of fuel used isn't in excess of what it would be if it was naturally aspirated (generally speaking, to keep in simple).

My 147hp 97 Miata (intake & catback exhaust) got about 29-30 mpg highway (with the top up). My 225hp 04 Mazdaspeed Miata (intake, full exhaust, electronic boost controller @ 11 psi) gets 30-31 mpg highway (with the top up). Not only does the MSM make 60% more power and weighs 200 lbs more than my 97, it gets better gas mileage when I'm not boosting.
 
I found out you need a different belt in a supercharger to change boost, and it seems hard to get better/equal economy out of a supercharger if it's possible at all. It seems the only way to have better economy with boost is by a special setup with turbos.
 
Actually with a supercharger to change boost you need a different pulley to create different underdrive ratios thus different boost settings.
 
You could, being an Aussie, run it Mad-Max style... Put a clutch on the upper blower pulley. (Of course, that means 'on' and 'off')

Oh, and as to the 'tuning a turbo car for economy means sacrificing a good WOT power curve' bit (yes, this is an edit):

Nope. Not with EFI at least... The car can be tuned for differing timing curves etc depending on throttle position and RPM, so you could (in theory) have it set so that it's tuned for optimum efficiency (lean mix, optimized timing, etc) at low-throttle (and therefore low boost) situations, then have it go to a safe tune for WOT, ie slightly richer mix, conservative timing, etc, and make full power as it would if absolutely nothing had been done to get the best possible economy down low.
 
Gotta love that how he pulls the switch on the shifter and the car lurches forward (well rather the film speeds up, but same diff! :lol:)
 
It's pretty simple. You program it to run leaner at low throttle openings and low boost, and you run the more aggressive fuel and ignition maps at higher boost and throttle openings.

If your car has an electronic throttle, you can customize it even further, by controlling the amount of throttle input the driver can order up from partial throttle, so that you don't have a sudden increase in air intake that'll make the engine go pig rich and drink gas like a Hummer H2.

My car is tuned to run close to stoich at high rpms... it's a little more fuel efficient than stock at low rpms, but at high rpms, where the stock program goes pig rich, my car drinks much less gas.

With turbo cars, there's often more attention paid to the mapping of the engine... where in their "non-performance" naturally-aspirated versions, they just stick on a "safe" (super-rich) map and leave it. This is why some turbo cars are more economical. But if the manufacturer pays attention to tuning the naturally aspirated version of the car (cough... Honda... cough), they can have a high-powered screamer with good fuel efficiency at low rpms (case in point: the current Honda R18 engine).
 
You could, being an Aussie, run it Mad-Max style... Put a clutch on the upper blower pulley. (Of course, that means 'on' and 'off')

Oh, and as to the 'tuning a turbo car for economy means sacrificing a good WOT power curve' bit (yes, this is an edit):

Nope. Not with EFI at least... The car can be tuned for differing timing curves etc depending on throttle position and RPM, so you could (in theory) have it set so that it's tuned for optimum efficiency (lean mix, optimized timing, etc) at low-throttle (and therefore low boost) situations, then have it go to a safe tune for WOT, ie slightly richer mix, conservative timing, etc, and make full power as it would if absolutely nothing had been done to get the best possible economy down low.

A lean mix is more air and less fuel? And your saying that the power would only come on at higher throttle? That would be crappy for circuit racing. I'd just have 2 different setups, one with the lean mix at low throttle and one where the power is optmised all the time. And I take it that none of this can be done using a supercharger? My brother, who also knows a bit about cars (but not everything) says he has seen people who run 10psi of boost through a supercharger and get better economy/decent economy still. How can this be done? Can we focus on the supercharging part now as turbos are pretty well covered and it's superchargers I'd mainly consider.
 
Some auto makers have made use of the turbocharger (and to an extent the Supercharger in Mazda miller cycle) mostly for efficient reasons rather than outright performance for many many years, not just this recent burst we are seeing now (Ecoboost anyone), Saab is an example of this.

Turbochargers can/do give a higher efficiency over a similar powered NA engine for a couple main reasons.

One is thermal efficiency, all that heat energy that normally is wasted out of the exhaust to some extent is used assisting for a intake charge rather than just fully expelled, some of this effiency is lost at higher boost where the intake charge itself is overheated from the compressing, needing a intercooler to remove some of that excess heat energy for combustion and compression temps to remain at safe level (bit of a two way dagger)

Another is the fact the turbocharger at idle, low RPM's and low loads (cruising) is really not doing much and is hardly a restriction at all, this means the engine off and at low boost can be tuned to run almost stoich, behaving much like a usual standard tuned NA engine. While a NA engine to provide a similar power and torque curve would need a displacement increase and or compression increase thus increasing other inefficiencies like extra pumping and friction losses.


Supercharging on the other hand can have advantages like in the miller cycle assisting the intake charge during a small period of time to reduce pumping losses (in one of the important time periods of the cycle BDC) by allowing the intake valve to stay open someway through the compression cycle, this design is not for outright power, but rather extra efficiency, which is greater than the losses of the supercharger.

One main disadvantage of the miller cycle is it is not a power chasing engine, infact if you try to increase boost you will just loose the efficiency that was gained.

Superchargers also have the disadvantage of mechanical friction losses all the time from idle and small loads/throttle inputs (cruising), much like having the aircon running all the time but worse, there is clutch systems for superchargers that can disengage at will, so it could be shut off at low rpm, low loads but long term reliability will suffer.


Some superchargers can be boost adjustable without changing pulleys, some have a aggressive pulley ratio with having a boost bypass to control boost similar to a turbochargers wastegate, which can aid in steady broad flat torque curves.


Doesn't forced induction = higher compression = hotter explosion? I'd think that you'd be able to lean out the mixture because of that.

Hotter explosion also means higher combustion temps, there is only so high you can go before given pump fuel pre-detonates, fueling (enriching) is one of a few ways to reduce combustion temps to a safe level without dropping a ton of power.


where in their "non-performance" naturally-aspirated versions, they just stick on a "safe" (super-rich) map and leave it.

Interesting, most factory NA tunes I have l looked at have a pretty good map, it's the aftermarket chipping I have seen some odd examples of.

A lean mix is more air and less fuel?

Well same air, less fuel.

And your saying that the power would only come on at higher throttle?

Power will come on (on a turbocharged engine) when ever you have setup to provide boost not how you fueled it, you then have to fuel the engine accordingly on the rev's vs load axis map. The fueling is to make the most effeicent possible (closest to stoich is possible with some exceptions) while keeping the combustion temps in the correct safe ranges.
 
So long story short, can better economy be achieved with a supercharger running a sporty setup? Say I want my Ute to be around 300kw at the flywheel, could I have a setup with a supercharger that is more or less economic?

Edit: My Ute would have a load of other mods before supercharging, I'd wanna make sure it's strong to withstand the pressure and you know- the general things.
 
So long story short, can better economy be achieved with a supercharger running a sporty setup? Say I want my Ute to be around 300kw at the flywheel, could I have a setup with a supercharger that is more or less economic?


It will be less economic than your stock engine or turbocharged tuned (300kw) during normal everyday driving, but supercharging it to 300kw's would be more efficient than a NA tuning it to 300kw's (3800 V6 I am assuming).

High loads wont make much difference, not that you would expect it to be good on fuel like that anyway.
 
Well after I do all the mods I wanna do I could be getting an average somwhere in the 8-9L/100km range. How much worse would the supercharger be?
 
I don't know why you want all that power out of your V6 then worry so much about fuel economy really.

Anyway, If a good thorough tune is made (Emphisis on 'thorough' as many 'tuners' don't spend enough time on it) under low loads and normal everyday type driving your fuel econmy should still be fairly decent. Giving a actual number is impossible as there is so many variables, it all depends on what you do to achieve this power level (cam profile, pulley ratios, tuner etc).

If you really are worried about fuel economy (don't forget you will require premium unleaded aswell) then maybe you shouldn't worry to much about power on your daily car.
 
A daily driver that can clean up most cars you meet is cool, but if I ever do supercharge it I would probably own a second car for daily driving. Just exploring my options. There are a few mods that help power and either improve or don't hurt economy- that's all I'm focusing mainly on at the moment.
 
The biggest downside of the supercharger when compared to turbochargers is just the fuel mileage, the SC needs power from the engine to run and thus needs fuel to even work, let alone to make more power. The turbo power is "free" as it's driven by the otherwise useless exhaust gases. So, if you run a supercharged engine off boost, it'll still consume more fuel than a similarly sized NA engine because the SC is robbing a bit of the power and necessitating slightly more throttle to keep the speed but a turbo engine off boost consumes the same as the NA one, only becoming a gas guzzler when the boost kicks in.

About that 8-9 litres per 100 km, you have little chance to achieve it unless you'll only drive straight flat roads with the overdrive on and even then it's unlikely. It's NA 2.0l inline four territory, not 3.8l supercharged V6 one.
 
8-9L/100km is not what I expect when supercharged, it's what I expect when NA. I already get 10L/100km, and I don't yet have an exhaust, MSD igintion coil, better computer engine management etc. I just wanted to know what it would have been like to have that then supercharge it. Looks like I'll need a second car before that happens.

Edit: Something occurred to me- the VW Golf GTI runs a supercharger at low RPM and in daily driving it gets awesome fuel economy doesn't it? What gives?
 
GTi is turbocharged, I think. It's probably the 1.4 twincharged GT you're thinking about.

Interesting, most factory NA tunes I have l looked at have a pretty good map, it's the aftermarket chipping I have seen some odd examples of.

(shrugs) guess it depends on which cars you're looking at. Most econoboxes I've seen have a fairly decent air-fuel map at low rpms that goes pig rich at high rpms, to forestall any possible pinging or detonation.

But heck, it seems that running ultra-rich is the OEM solution to almost anything... :lol:
 
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