Ford Says No to Mr. Diesel

[YSSMAN]

Why do I get the feeling that this is a bad idea...

Ford has no plans to offer diesel engines in passenger cars in the United States, according to Automotive News. Instead, diesels will be limited to Ford's truck offerings in America, said Mark Fields, Ford's U.S. division president.

"We have done a lot of assessment from a customer perspective, looking at what diesel offers in terms of fuel economy and performance versus cost," said Derrick Kuzak, Ford's product development boss. "At this point in time, we would say that GTDI (gasoline turbocharged direct injection) seems to be the better alternative."

Ford offers a number of efficient diesels in Europe — including a 50 mpg Focus — but those vehicle would not meet new strict emissions standards introduced here in America. Fields said Ford would be unable to price diesel cars fairly and still make money, so it will instead focus on turbocharger and gasoline direct injection and hybrids. Toyota has taken a similar stance, saying new regulations make diesels less cost effective than hybrids.

Wow. Just when you think Ford may be getting back up on their feet, they drop the ball again, and chose to ignore the growing diesel market. What it comes down to is the lack of foresight on their behalf, and the lack of what basically comes down to "good judgment" for their own well-being. We'll see if they change their mind, but I am certainly disappointed in Ford's decision.

 

[TopHat]

You read the article, the government wont allow it. So we'll just have to wait until California dies.

 

[Keef]

Originally Posted by Ford
We have done a lot of assessment from a customer perspective, looking at what diesel offers in terms of fuel economy and performance versus cost

What the hell is the point of doing an "...assessment [of diesel feasability] from a customer perspective..." in the United States? I'd guess that 90% of drivers in this country have never operated a diesel anything, and some might never have even seen a diesel car on the road! They don't even know diesels lack spark plugs!

In general, American drivers have no clue what a diesel would be like to drive, the benefit of the engine, the detriments, etc. So, asking an American "Would you drive a diesel?" would yield a big "I don't know." POINTLESS.

At least let us know what a diesel is before deciding that we don't like them, Ford.

 

[YSSMAN]

You read the article, the government wont allow it.

Ford could spend the money it takes to modify the systems to run "clean" like DaimlerChrysler, Volkswagen/Audi, BMW, General Motors, and presumably Honda and sell them in the United States without a problem. Added to that, given the market share that diesel vehicles have been taking up in America is staggering, and it is part of the reason why so many companies are buying into the technology. Considering that on-average that they are more fuel efficient than most hybrids, have a lower cost increase over hybrid vehicles, and indeed drive more like "regular" cars compared to hybrids, why not go for it?

Volkswagen has seen dramatic increases in sales of their TDI line year, after year, after year... And the lack of TDI sales this year will be detrimental to their sales figures. So, if Ford wants to stay away from sub-$25K sedans that can get nearly 50 MPG on the highway, and can average well-above 40 MPG, that is their deal. But when they see sales running away from the Focus not only because of the rather strange looks, but because of the lack of a competitive fuel-efficient product, they will realize that they screwed up.

 

[Jim Prower]

The thing is, Ford isn't willing to take the steps to make a diesel engine that is clean enough for the North American passenger car market. Which is kinda the same stance over Focus, Mondeo, and Falcon.

 

[3-Wheel Drive]

This isn't surprising. Ford hasn't exactly made many good decisions lately, other then letting the Taurus die.

Only a company like Ford could respond to faltering SUV sales by making their Expedition 2 feet longer.

It reminds me of the C&D article, "The Cars that Could Save Ford". Ford already makes cars that cold indeed save them, but they just aren't sold to the one market that is demanding such cars. I mean why would we Americans want a fast, stylish FPV Typhoon, when we could settle for a nice Ford 500?

 

[harrytuttle]

Wow. Just when you think Ford may be getting back up on their feet, they drop the ball again, and chose to ignore the growing diesel market. What it comes down to is the lack of foresight on their behalf, and the lack of what basically comes down to "good judgment" for their own well-being. We'll see if they change their mind, but I am certainly disappointed in Ford's decision.

Ford: paper, darts, blind semi-retarted monkeys....


That and a good dose of laziness compensating for Ford's view of the US public's cluelessness about diesel.

 

[Keef]

Ford: paper, darts, blind semi-retarted monkeys....


That and a good dose of laziness compensating for Ford's view of the US public's cluelessness about diesel.

Most people don't know much about how modern diesels can be cleaner, quieter, and quicker in some cases than their gasoline counterparts these days. But they'll stay like that until they get the chance to drive a diesel. Not everyone shops at Volkswagen, so not everyone has been exposed to modern diesel passenger cars. Diesels need more exposure in the US, and that's the bottom line.

So, I can't tell wether you agree or disagree with Ford's decision, becaus many Americans are clueless.

 

[a6m5]

Personally, I'd take that gamble. Yes, I think it would be a gamble for Ford to push diesel in the U.S.

Just like the people complaining about the new American Focus, you guys forget how big of a hole Ford is in, financially. When you are trying to near miss bankruptcy, you are not as flexible as you'd like to be. They can't afford to start up diesel manufacturing and marketing in the U.S. They got no money!

Again, I think it's a great idea. I just don't think Ford can afford it.

 

[Philly]

Of course the public know nothing about diesels. The diesels we had until now were rattly and smelly. Companies are having to stress the fact that diesels are now clean and quiet. Also, the US has such low gas prices (we American's should NOT be complaining). Diesel just wasn't needed here.

If I have my facts right, diesels strong point economywise is their highway mileage. Doesn't it make sense to have diesels here, because we do so much highway driving compared to the streets of Europe?

This decision probably won't hurt Ford too much. Diesels will probably take at least 5 years, maybe ten to catch on and become mainstream here. That would give Ford enough time to recover and develop a diesel. Or, they could start now and develop a dirtier car and ignore Cali.

 

[YSSMAN]

I believe it to be younger, and better educated members of American society that have an education in diesel, and is indeed part of the reason why so many automakers are rushing to get diesel products in America before the end of the decade. Given that they can indeed produce great fuel economy both in and out of the city (that being highway driving), they tend to make more sense than Hybrid and other gasoline/whatever models that compromise power and overall driveability simply for the case of "fuel efficiency."

Certainly older folks will recall rather crap-tastic diesels from Oldsmobiles and early Volkswagens, but it is the younger folks who recall newer TDI diesels and things like the Duramax and Cummins to make diesel power seem reasonable again. Added to that, thanks to the internet, there is a greater sharing of information about who gets what, where, and what exactly it does. I often sight the Clarkson test of the Lupo from a couple years back when he achieved 75 BMPG, so somewhere around 62 USMPG on the highway. People come off impressed and ask why they don't sell the car here, and for that I don't have a good answer...

...So Ford sits there, arms crossed, refusing to do what people may end up going for in the end. They may regret it, they may not. But when cars like the SMART, Jetta TDI, Astra diesel, 330d, etc go flying off the shelf in the near-future for their high fuel efficiency and rather low cost-increase to the consumer upon purchase, don't be surprised if Ford gets a little upset over what they could have done.

 

[Philly]

I'm suprised the trend is not reversed. Diesels for their great highway mileage in the US with lots of highways. Hybrids with mostly city mileage in Europe, where street driving is very common. Maybe the Europeans are looking for power, which diesel does great, with loads of torque. I guess the Japanese, with their reputation have resorted to tech to give an advantage. And we are still stuck on the big V8. I'm sure Ford's V8 atachment has to do with this desision.

 

[a6m5]

Ford diesel parts are very expensive too. I wonder if that had something to do with the decision they made. 7.3 is a very common diesel engine for Ford, but even they have $20 bolts(that's one) and many parts that cost a small fortune to replace. I wonder if it's the same way with other makes.

 

[Mark T]

Ford offers a number of efficient diesels in Europe — including a 50 mpg Focus — but those vehicle would not meet new strict emissions standards introduced here in America.

So a diesel Focus would produce more harmful emissions than a Dodge Viper? Am I missing something. Surely the emissions would be much lower?

 

[TheCracker]

So a diesel Focus would produce more harmful emissions than a Dodge Viper? Am I missing something. Surely the emissions would be much lower?

I think it's more about what chemicals those emissions consit of rather than an overal amount. A diesel engine emits a different range of chemicals than those from petrol unit. I guess the US regulations are stricter on certain chemicals than the EU regs.

 

[Mark T]

I think it's more about what chemicals those emissions consit of rather than an overal amount. A diesel engine emits a different range of chemicals than those from petrol unit. I guess the US regulations are stricter on certain chemicals than the EU regs.

I'll have to do some googling today and try and find out the difference between the emissions.

 

[TheCracker]

I'll have to do some googling today and try and find out the difference between the emissions.

Wiki covers the US regs fairly well

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_emissions_control

- could'nt find any mention of the Euro regs though.

 

[Poverty]

looks like daimler chrysler and vag will hhave a diesel monopoly.

 

[FoolKiller]

So a diesel Focus would produce more harmful emissions than a Dodge Viper? Am I missing something. Surely the emissions would be much lower?

The US just passed new regulations on sulfur content in diesel and so new engines are having to be redesigned and even Volkswagen has had to stop TDI production until 2008 to adjust.

For the details:

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/06/ultra_lowsulfur.html

 

[L8 Apex]

*Borat voice* Yet another "Bold Move" from the Blue Oval................................................................................................................NOT!

A diesel Fusion or Five-Hundred that got low-40s MPG would have been a major coup, IMO. Oh well. Good thing they didn't revive the old slogan "Ford has a better idea!"; otherwise, they'd be in a mess o' trouble for false advertising!

 

[YSSMAN]

looks like daimler chrysler and vag will hhave a diesel monopoly.

General Motors and Honda have both said that they wish to enter the diesel market in America, and BMW is sounding as though they are going to do it as well. What it is going to come down to is who can sell us on diesel power as cheaply and as efficiently as possible, so we'll see what happens. The last of the Jetta TDIs are gone now, and won't be back for a year. To put it lightly, more than a few VW dealers are just a little pissed-off...

 

[harrytuttle]

looks like daimler chrysler and vag will hhave a diesel monopoly.

Which is kind of what I stated earlier. Considering their success in Europe, they shouldn't have too much trouble translating that over here. That's on top of their new (Bluetec) and old (TDI) histories.

General Motors and Honda have both said that they wish to enter the diesel market in America...

I think they'd have to have good diesels somewhere before attempting to enter the usually stubborn US market.

 

[FoolKiller]

I think they'd have to have good diesels somewhere before attempting to enter the usually stubborn US market.

If the image of the diesel can be improved upon and Americans be convinced that it doesn't require warming up, plugging it in, and that it doesn't spew smoke then they will jump on it. Audi and Volkswagen have already started working on this by putting out diesel powered racing vehicles to get it out there.

Then, consider that with hybrids people who didn't know anything about them bought in to the new thing and helped them catch on. Now, I believe that there are enough people that understand diesel to buy into them and once people realize that it is just as effiecient, and nearly as clean as a hybrid, but performs much better and looks like the same car they currently drive they will become interested.

If I had to guess, I would say that about ten years after the new diesels are out they will have a decent market penetration. It's just going to require something more than Volkswagen, because too many people in America see it as the hiking in the woods hippy car (at least where I live).

 

[RouWa]

Here in Germany the only reason people buy a Diesel is the extremely high price for fuel. Diesel has a lower tax than ordinary gasoline and is therefore cheaper.

Today´s prices:

Ordinary gasoline (octane number 95) = 1,25 Euro (1,63 $) / liter
Diesel = 1,06 Euro (1,39 $) / liter

That´s

Ordinary gasoline (octane number 95) = 6,18 $ / US gallon
Diesel = 5,27 $ / US gallon

In other European countries the prices are even higher.

With fuel prices as low as in the US nobody would buy a Diesel.

 

[FoolKiller]

In the US it is the opposite. Diesel costs about $0.20 more than ordinary gasoline, which puts it about average with premium.

 

[Gil]

To repeat, and add to what FoolKiller said:

Keep in mind that in the US, most drivers prize power over economy, and historically the diesel cars that have been offered get great economy, but give up acceleration.
Pretty much the only "successful" diesel automobiles in the US have been the Volkswagen, and to a lesser extent Mercedes diesel variants. (this due to price, not that Merc doesn't make a very good diesel automobile).

Add to that the growing popularity of hybrids, which do offer the acceleration that we Americans have grown accustomed to with fuel economy that is comparable to the deisel, with "normal" gasoline, which is cheaper now than diesel (though that is a fairly recent development).
And with diesel fuel, availability is a bit of a problem in most of the US. I have traveled pretty extensively in the Midwest, and Eastern portion of the US, and diesel is sold at maybe 1 out of every 5 to 7 stations in metropolitan areas. You'll find diesel at every exit with more than one station traveling the interstates. But, it's kind of "uncomfortable" to be the "little" guy fueling up at the truck-stop amidst all the semis.


I believe that diesel is an awesome alternative. Especially when bio-diesel can be produced for pennies per gallon. But diesels will most likely stay a "truck only" option for the forseeable future.

 

[Pebb]

I think Ford are looking at Bio Fuel and Hydrogen.

 

[harrytuttle]

If the image of the diesel can be improved upon and Americans be convinced that it doesn't require warming up, plugging it in, and that it doesn't spew smoke then they will jump on it. Audi and Volkswagen have already started working on this by putting out diesel powered racing vehicles to get it out there.

That's a big "if". Americans pretend not to be xenophobic, but they are notorious for not listening to outside ideas or opinions. I think diesel will have some very slow success, starting from the bottom up with small cars like the Golf and Civic. If Mercedes could somehow bring the A-Class with a diesel engine here, that would be a great start (provided it didn't kill any moose).

 

[YSSMAN]

I would care to share a few diesel stories written in the US:

First is the C/D test between the various "fuel saving" vehicles, a Toyota Prius, a Honda Civic Hybrid, a Volkswagen Jetta (Bora) TDI, and the Toyota Echo... Each representing different ways the consumer can save money at the pump, and which vehicle would be best for doing so. You can read their Frugalympics story here.

Added to that, C/D's most recent test of the now-defunct Jetta TDI, located here. Again, high praise for a fuel efficient car with fewer sacrifices needed to be made for hybrids and whatnot.

After driving a Jetta TDI a few years ago, I've pretty much been convinced that it is the way to go without sacrificing too much driveability in the sake of economy at the pump. The problem is, other people have indeed caught on, and the cars used are nearly as expensive as some brand-new models. Of course, VW oil-burners are about as die-hard as you get with some diesel fans in America, thus even extremely used-up diesel models can still go for a lot in America if they are in good shape. I've seen the older MKIII diesels rack up as much cash as later MKIV 1.8T GLS, GLX, and even Jetta Wolfsburg models.

 

[FoolKiller]

That's a big "if". Americans pretend not to be xenophobic, but they are notorious for not listening to outside ideas or opinions.

I used to think the same thing about hybrids and now I see them everywhere. I am slowly working to convince a few people I know personally who have the "dirty diesel" image in their brains and were contemplating a hybrid. All I had to do was show them the stats on the Audi R10 along with a video showing the lack of noise or exhaust coming from it. I let them know that it is the future of diesel and suddenly they are interested.

The quickest way, however, would be to take the route the Toyota Pious did, have a Hollywood celebrity feature it on their show and even focus an entire episode around how wonderful the car is, ala Larry David from Curb Your Enthusiasm. It was a classic episode that touted the "glory" of the car, while at the same time showed how annoying the owners of these cars can be.

While Americans don't listen to outside ideas, they do listen to marketing. I can guarantee there are enough celebrities that like to have power, but would love economy as well, to be able to get a few of these into high-profile hands. Off the top of my head I can think of a couple of big LeMans fans. I know Paul Newman and Patrick Dempsey (even if his roles do suck) are big into LeMans and they do have some good name credit. I can guarantee they have seen the TDI and would gladly take a fancy Audi and then talk about how it is just as efficient as the Pious as much sacrifice.

Of course a "news report" about this wonderfully improved technology would be a nice step as well. Television news specializes in pre-packaged "news" stories about fancy new products.

I would care to share a few diesel stories written in the US:

First is the C/D test between the various "fuel saving" vehicles, a Toyota Prius, a Honda Civic Hybrid, a Volkswagen Jetta (Bora) TDI, and the Toyota Echo... Each representing different ways the consumer can save money at the pump, and which vehicle would be best for doing so. You can read their Frugalympics story here.

Added to that, C/D's most recent test of the now-defunct Jetta TDI, located here. Again, high praise for a fuel efficient car with fewer sacrifices needed to be made for hybrids and whatnot.

After driving a Jetta TDI a few years ago, I've pretty much been convinced that it is the way to go without sacrificing too much driveability in the sake of economy at the pump. The problem is, other people have indeed caught on, and the cars used are nearly as expensive as some brand-new models. Of course, VW oil-burners are about as die-hard as you get with some diesel fans in America, thus even extremely used-up diesel models can still go for a lot in America if they are in good shape. I've seen the older MKIII diesels rack up as much cash as later MKIV 1.8T GLS, GLX, and even Jetta Wolfsburg models.

After owning my first VW I suspect my next car (far down the road) will be a TDI. Lately my Rabbit has gotten better economy than it was rated (rated at 30, I get ~33), so I would like to see how the new TDI pans out.