Formula E racing series launchedOpen Wheel

[cgr-10]

mmm, looks like someone parked a Formula Ford on top of the current indycar.

That was exactly my first thought as well, it probably would look better if the nose weren't so large.

 

[Grand Prix]

Far as I can remember, as I wrote about it at some point, the batteries are low in the chassis, i.e. below the driver - hence the driver sits up high, which makes the nose high too.

Hmm, I see. I think I would put those batteries either side of the driver though. It would raise the side bits, but the driver and nose would be lower. Dunno what kind of problems that would create with their design though.

I guess over time the best designs will come out on top anyways, in the evolution of the series.

 

[niky]

As the battery pack as a whole is much heavier than the driver, it makes sense to put it as low to the ground as possible. Since they don't need swappable packs, they can put them in the floor. Having a tall and narrow cockpit makes for better aero than increasing frontal area unnecessarily.

Form follows function. The way it should in racing.

 

[Grand Prix]

As the battery pack as a whole is much heavier than the driver, it makes sense to put it as low to the ground as possible. Since they don't need swappable packs, they can put them in the floor. Having a tall and narrow cockpit makes for better aero than increasing frontal area unnecessarily.

Form follows function. The way it should in racing.

On this, we agree.

I've noticed something funny though.

Tall and narrow body, small and skinny tires, with teardrop shaped rear:

Yup, we've come full circle.

 

[MSTER232]

Far as I can remember, as I wrote about it at some point, the batteries are low in the chassis, i.e. below the driver - hence the driver sits up high, which makes the nose high too.

Then the driver must be standing up in that car since it's so tall .

 

[prisonermonkeys]

People have claimed the same thing (don't sound right, won't watch) about the turbo-fours, the V6s, the V10s, the V8s and the like in Formula One... but those people are still watching.

And when you really think about it, Formula E will limit the ability of other series to go 100% electric. The FIA will move to protect the series, because they won't be able to cmopete if a more-established series like Formula 1 starts going the same way.

 

[Grand Prix]

Here's some food for thought: How many would be happy if this series guaranteed racing at tracks like Spa, (yes, I know Spa has a new F1 contract, but hypothetically speaking) which are constantly under threat due to noise complaints about petroleum cars?

What if people that lived by these race tracks loved the electric racing so much they didn't want petroleum powered cars on them anymore?

Will be an interesting decade.

 

[homeforsummer]

Then the driver must be standing up in that car since it's so tall .

Not really. The battery pack probably comes to around half the height of the vehicle, with the driver on top of that in the usual single-seater driving position.

Whether you like the design or not, as Niky points out - it's just form following function.

Here's some food for thought: How many would be happy if this series guaranteed racing at tracks like Spa, (yes, I know Spa has a new F1 contract, but hypothetically speaking) which are constantly under threat due to noise complaints about petroleum cars?

I have to say, that aspect appeals to me too. My relatively-local track is in constant battles with local residents over noise and only runs a handful of events per year - and it's certainly not the only UK track in that situation. I'm absolutely for electric racing if it'd allow more frequent events.

 

[niky]

It would be awesome if electric racing could help support race tracks. Also, if you could have relatively inexpensive feeder series (think, e-karts with bodies), you could bring racing closer to the public (malls, parking lots, city courses) without infuriating zoning boards everywhere.


RE: The car. Mind you, I'm not saying it's pretty... but then I think that most F1 cars are garish monstrosities. If it were tall narrow and nothing else, I'd like it more... but I think it's an excellent solution that might actually be better than cars laid out in a more traditional manner.

E-vehicles are not conventional. Designing one to look conventional sacrifices packaging efficiency. Does the Fisker really require a traditional, crowded engine bay? No. But they make it the way it is because that makes it sexy. And flammable.

You'll note the other design is also tall and narrow with a wide floor. Given the need pack enough batteries to minimize pitstops, I guess everyone will go this way. And given the other design is prettier... it might just be faster.

 

[Jav]

In a nutshell, it's racing with Electric cars. Due to start in 2014, the investors say "we can race in new places".

Many critics have one major concern with this and that is that racing isn't just about the speed. It's about the noise as well as the speed. And as we all know, an electric car makes the most ridiculous hum.

My opinion: I shan't watch it, I shan't follow it, or support it in anyway. I shan't even acknowledge it as a form of racing. I hate electric cars, and I will hate this with a passion.

What are your opinions of this?

Sorry to be so prejudicial, but I 100% share your feelings towards this.

 

[jcm]

As long as this is broadcast in Canada, this series will be brilliant in my opinion

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

As long as this is broadcast in Canada, this series will be brilliant in my opinion

Maybe.



I'm curious; what are people's takes on drivetrain choices? Even if they go with the open-wheel layout, how do we know that no one's going to go AWD, because there are few restrictions, meaning that someone could use AWD to take advantage of the electric motor's torque AND lack of torque curve. Let's face it, electric motors have a much bigger "sweet-spot" in terms of the RPM powerband range, than gasoline/petrol powered motors.



So, if someone takes the opportunity to create a car with all-wheel-drive, could we not see yet another "Deltawing" type design, which will force engineers to rethink their current understanding of motorsports, including in F1?

 

[homeforsummer]

E-vehicles are not conventional. Designing one to look conventional sacrifices packaging efficiency. Does the Fisker really require a traditional, crowded engine bay? No. But they make it the way it is because that makes it sexy. And flammable.

I'm looking forward to the point a carmaker can design an electric car utterly unconstrained by the preconceptions of what a "car" is supposed to look like, as that's one of the whole benefits of electric cars. You don't need a dedicated hood to package an engine, you don't need to compromise on suspension design when you don't have to fit it around a fuel tank. You don't even need craploads of insulation materials and the like, because electric motors make very little noise, no vibration, and no harshness...

Same lack of constraints applies to racing cars too. If anything I'd say that Fondmetal tall-boy racer is compromised, because they have kind of ruined the looks by trying to put batteries in the same footprint as a regular single-seater.

Single seaters look the way they are because of where the engine, radiators, gearbox etc is in most of them. Engine in the middle, driver in front, fuel tank between them, gearbox at the back, radiators in the side pods, air intake above the driver... but none of that applies to an electric one. Why not in-wheel motors? Why not an incredibly sleek closed-cockpit? Why not arced, safety-reinforcing sidepods with more aerodynamic properties, rather than generic ones where radiators would normally go?

The Bluebird one seems much less constrained by tradition than the Fondmetal car. And it looks better to boot.

Sorry to be so prejudicial, but I 100% share your feelings towards this.

If you're sorry about your prejudice, why not try to change it?

Dismissing something you have zero experience of isn't just unfair on whatever you're dismissing, it's also unimaginative. To me, it's no fairer than the people who say that NASCAR is "easy, because it's just a bunch of people going in circles". Anyone who gives it a chance can see the appeal - and I suspect the same will be true of electric racing.

 

[jcm]

Yeah, I'll be honest the people who are complaining about the engine noise are so, for lack of a better word, silly. Sure it sounds great, but that's not what makes racing exciting. Prejudices are quite lame, especially when the only basis for your prejudice is that the cars won't sound good. At least come up with a decent reason for your prejudicyness, as there are some legitimate reasons available to have a big prejudice against this series, and engine noise isn't one of them.

If you want legitimate reasons to hate this series barely days after it's creation here are a couple, along with a couple less legitimate reasons

- A hatred of street circuits.
- A hatred of that concept design car thing which looks quite ugly.
- The open-rulebook is flawed, too many/not enough rules.
- A hatred of all FIA endorsed events.
- Why watch cars that don't go 220+mph?
- A hatred of trees.
- A hatred of various animals in the arctic, including polar bears, who are very possibily the best animal in the world


Those are all better reasons to not like this series. Still, I really do think that this will be a great series Maybe they'll even come to Vancouver. Canada is very green

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Maybe they'll even come to Vancouver. Canada is very green

Those are horrible reasons. In Ontario, there was... like, no winter... at all... this year... Stupid climate change stuff.


Anyways, maybe they'll come to Toronto.

 

[jcm]

Yeah those were horrible reasons, but still better then the sound reason Not actually better reasons, rather, equally pathetic reasons

There should be an all-Canada Formula E championship

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Yeah those were horrible reasons, but still better then the sound reason Not actually better reasons, rather, equally pathetic reasons

There should be an all-Canada Formula E championship

The guy funding it is Spanish. I wish, though! I'd like to see a big Formula series race come to Kitchener, actually. We have some interesting hills/streets, and no one around here knows about the sport yet. I mean, I met the one guy... who complained that there are no tracks around here...

 

[jcm]

One day... Formula E Canada, greatest racing series in the world. Until then, we'll have to settle for an international series of near equal brilliance

 

[Nessy]

Am i the only one that thinks the Fondmetal design is better, (though not in an aesthetic way) than the Bluebird design?

Reason i say this, is that i'm looking at it from a cost perspective, ie: in-wheel motors as opposed to normal set-up (more costly i imagine).
Uncomplicated bodywork (Fondmetal) should be easier to manufacture (thus cheaper) than something really complex (Bluebird).

The reason i feel cost is important, is because i think if the costs are low enough, there's a greater chance of seeing an increased grid size... more cars racing should = greater the spectacle (imo).

As for the way both cars are packaged, i'm not really sure they're all that much different in lay out, i'm imagining that both cars probably concentrate the weight of the batteries around the most optimum point.. the center.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Am i the only one that thinks the Fondmetal design is better, (though not in an aesthetic way) than the Bluebird design?

Reason i say this, is that i'm looking at it from a cost perspective, ie: in-wheel motors as opposed to normal set-up (more costly i imagine).
Uncomplicated bodywork should be easier to manufacture (thus cheaper) than something really complex.

The reason i feel cost is important, is because i think if the costs are low enough, there's a greater chance of seeing an increased grid size... more cars racing should = greater the spectacle (imo).

As for the way both cars are packaged, i'm not really sure they're all that much different in lay out, i'm imagining that both cars probably concentrate the weight of the batteries around the most optimum point.. the center.

But, complex metalwork nets downforce. In terms of efficiency per cost, sheetmetal's the best way to start. I mean, you can go full-out on the design of the aerodynamics, using CFD computer programming, OR you can just go on google, design a wing, and work with what's already known, rather than reinvent an aerodynamic wheel.


Otherwise, though, the motor can only be improved so much, before it takes battery life away, and I imagine, that pit stops will be QUITE long, if they're entirely changing cars. So, just adding more power will not likely be an option. Personally, I think that, if anyone were to try, a Ginetta G4 would be the most efficient type of electric race car: no diveplanes to create aero drag, and a small motor which just runs and runs and runs, without having to do 10 driver changes, from one car to another.

 

[m8h3r]

The FIA says it represents "a vision for the future of the motor industry over the coming decades".

This is what worries me. I like the roar of the engine, it's one of the things I've missed over the 5 week Formula 1 break. I would be very very annoyed if suddenly everyone starts doing electric cars. Can you imagine chases scenes on TV when the cars go past and you hear the obviously digitally altered engine sounds revving, what if that was just a hum of the electric engine. Doesn't give me the immersive feel to it.

Cars such as the electric Nissan Leaf can cope with longer journeys

Now that's just misleading. The only reason the leaf can go so far is because it doesn't go above 10 mph. When you have cars, hopefully, topping 200mph the batteries are going to drain so quickly.

 

[niky]

From what I've gathered, completely in-wheel motors are less effective than otherwise, but my experience is limited to low-powered electrics.

With smooth power delivery and weight issues, I don't think AWD will be as big an advantage as with gasoline. Electronic torque control is built into the system from the beginning. And you can have torque vectoring built into the rear axles... or front-axles... Perhaps electric racing (or rallying) is one arena where the FWD handicap won't be so big.

I would love for it to be an ultra-experimental fun fest, but realistically, contestants will center around one or two general layouts, and by the second season, the rest of the field will be copying the layout of the faster cars.

 

[Nessy]

But, complex metalwork nets downforce. In terms of efficiency per cost, sheetmetal's the best way to start. I mean, you can go full-out on the design of the aerodynamics, using CFD computer programming, OR you can just go on google, design a wing, and work with what's already known, rather than reinvent an aerodynamic wheel.

I wasn't really referring to metalwork with regards bodywork, (Fondmetal is the name of the company). I was looking at it from the perspective that, less complicated CF design could possibly be the cheaper process... don't no for sure though, i could be wrong.

I'm all for this E-car series, if the accelerations are even remotely anything like this, then i'm really looking forward to it.

Black current drag car:
(the magic is around the 4.30mins mark)



And yes, i know it's an entirely different kind of racing from the E-car series.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Firstly, you just mentioned that Beetle, but it only has to make it a bit more than 1/4 mile. That's not a race distance, at all. I don't know the capacity of the batteries, but, I doubt that the cars will want to use the more demanding motors, that will drain the car's batteries as quickly as the motor(s) on that Beetle.



Anyways, as for the thing I was mentioning, I meant that I didn't quite understand, how you think that it'd be more cost-effective to design a very efficient carbon fiber setup. Cost efficiency is the enemy of carbon fiber AND aerodynamics. Aerodynamics and carbon fiber are the most cost intensive parts of most of the cars being built for this series, guaranteed. And, I imagine, that a huge percentage of the series will come down to tires, aerodynamics, and battery longevity.


I'm expecting that these cars will be running almost full-throttle for most of the lap, with a small motor, and little downforce, trying to win by staying out of the pits (the same tactic that wins at Le Mans/24 Hours of Daytona/24 Hours of Nürburgring.)

 

[Nessy]

@ MrMelancholy.

Yes, i'm fully aware of that, hence:

I'm all for this E-car series, if the accelerations are even remotely anything like this, then i'm really looking forward to it.

And:

And yes, i know it's an entirely different kind of racing from the E-car series.

I'm leaning to the acceleration hopefully being more like that drag car than say.. a milk float.

As for the bodywork thing, i wasn't really comparing metalwork vs CF, i was actually pointing out the differences between the two designs.. "Fondmetal" vs "Bluebird".
For me (that's assuming they're both CF bodies), the Bluebird looks to be the more complex design, hence why i think maybe it would be more costly to develop than the 'Fondmetal' bodywork... but as i said "i could be wrong".

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

As for the bodywork thing, i wasn't really comparing metalwork vs CF, i was actually pointing out the differences between the two designs.. "Fondmetal" vs "Bluebird".
For me (that's assuming they're both CF bodies), the Bluebird looks to be the more complex design, hence why i think maybe it would be more costly to develop than the 'Fondmetal' bodywork... but as i said "i could be wrong".

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

However, this (what I bolded,) is the exact reason why I believe that the series will come down to aerodynamics.

 

[Nessy]

No worries. And yeah i agree, i too think it will come down to the aerodynamics/pit-stops like you described.

 

[homeforsummer]

Worth noting that even current road car batteries, which I expect are a world away from what you'd see under the pressure of competition, are capable of sustaining an electric car for a good 50 miles of racing, which is maybe 25 laps of a lot of circuits.

Or, about the same length of time as your average Formula 3 or touring car race - and few people complain about the excitement of those sort of series. I'd even go as far as saying in something like the BTCC, sound isn't that important - 95% of the excitement comes from the full grids, the closeness of the racing, seeing the cars move about so much, tight, twisty circuits, and of course the odd crash... I'd love to see an NGTC-spec Nissan Leaf or something... would be fascinating.

With regards to the complexity of the two race car bodies, it leads me to think whether that wouldn't be the ideal case for another up-to-the-minute technique - 3D printing. Complexity is virtually irrelevant with 3D printing, as it costs no more to make a dozen completely different items than it does to make a dozen identical ones.

Would revolutionise component upgrades too, as a front wing endplate that wasn't really working at a particular racing weekend could be re-designed and printed out at the circuit, in between sessions... ditto with any other component. I'd like to see Formula E being a technological showcase in the same way that F1 currently is.

I can't see how anyone who considers themselves interested in engineering, technology or racing, wouldn't be at least a little interested to learn more about electric racing.

 

[niky]

Silly... If it's not a burbling, carbureted V8, it's not a real car...

Many people bemoan how car technology is so out there that you can't wrench on anything new. Electric cars, aside from the controller board, are so simple you could build one yourself.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Silly... If it's not a burbling, carbureted V8, it's not a real car...

Many people bemoan how car technology is so out there that you can't wrench on anything new. Electric cars, aside from the controller board, are so simple you could build one yourself.

Pfft, not as simple as Formula Ford. In seriousness, for those who don't "wrench on anything new," there's always Spec Miata: going to a dealership, and ordering one. It's not hard to do.


Following that, though, I think it's always the financial problem, that causes the problem. I don't think that there will be any privateer entries. It's too much money. With no rulebook, these cars COULD end up looking like Pikes Peak cars, with big wings, big diffusers, and low weights. Try telling some 24 year old guy, that he needs to design a car, that has all of the parts of a high-performance race car, in his garage, and he'll just say "I wish."


Summary of my denial of your logic: "I wish." They're too expensive for just anybody.