Formula E racing series launchedOpen Wheel 

  • Thread starter ECGadget
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Well... yeah, but who can afford a Formula 3 car either, without a ton of sponsorship money?

It's pretty obvious that not everyone is going to be able to rock up and compete in Formula E, but that isn't the point of it. It's a high-profile, high-engineering sport, like the dozens of other single-seater series out there.

In general, it's incredibly cheap to create a working electric car. Hell, you could build a motor yourself out of bits of scrap (edit: I said this as a flippant comment knowing how simple electric motors are, but you actually can build an electric motor from scrap...) - I'd like to see the guy who can build an engine himself without a lathe, precision tools, and a crapload of money.

As for "not as simple as Formula Ford", I'm not sure what you're referring to. You could count the number of moving parts in an electric drivetrain on one hand. In anything with an engine, it's up into the hundreds. How exactly is that "simple"?
 
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@ homeforsummer. "3D printing"

That's a really good point (something i hadn't considered), i'd be really excited to see them embrace that form of technology. 👍

Out of interest, isn't 3D printing based on using spools of nylon? it would be interesting to find out whether other base materials could be used, or how light/strong they could make the nylon components.

[EDIT]

I must be thinking about sewing machines.. :lol:

I have seen some of the cheaper variants use spools of nylon, but apparently 3D printers can use around 14 different kinds of material.
 
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ICE cars are simple to work on because there are decades of knowledge and secondhand parts and tools lying all over the place.

But electrics? It's as simple as buying a bunch of batteries, a secondhand forklift controller and a motor of whatever size you like. There's a thriving grassroots industry making electric cars, you can go online right now and get step-by-step instructions on how to build an electric Beetle... Along with secondhand or brand new EV or forklift motors and secondhand controllers.

If you want to wrench on a new car and tune it with the same freedom a carb and a set of replaceable jets, you'll need an expensive piggyback or programmable ECU... Or your own controller... And you'll have to learn how to adjust fuel, timing and TPS tables.

The big barrier with electrics is that powerful secondhand motors are not as plentiful or cheap as with regular cars, but give it time.

This is not to say electrics will ever be as cheap, convenient and available as gas cars, but if you're interested in building things, there are less interesting and fulfilling ways of wasting your time.
 
homeforsummer
As for "not as simple as Formula Ford", I'm not sure what you're referring to. You could count the number of moving parts in an electric drivetrain on one hand. In anything with an engine, it's up into the hundreds. How exactly is that "simple"?
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The Formula Ford specs and everything are given, AND all of the parts (ignition, etc) are store bought, from what I've heard. And, while I agree, that it's easy to build an electric motor, just working with the aerodynamics puts it in a much higher level. It's almost unfair to imagine any one person going head-to-head with Adrian Newey's top engineers, or Adrian Newey himself. That's because Adrian Newey, and his top engineers, clearly, are extremely talented aerodynamicists. This series doesn't ban the use of dive planes? Formula Ford does. Ergo, in terms of just aerodynamics, Formula Ford is much simpler.
 
But Formula E isn't meant to be Formula Ford. Formula Ford is a spec series, in other words, forcing people to buy stuff off the shelf to ensure an even playing field and VERY cheap cars.

Formula E is like a more modest LeMans, except closer to its less-regulated format than the stiflingly contrived engine rulebook they have today.

It's entirely possible to make a Formula E similar in expense to Formula Ford or F3. force everyone to use the same motor, pack, comtroller and chassis. Force them to use Leaf or Volt packs, for example (6k-8k maybe, to lease the batteries), and let them use Leaf traction motors. They'd be slower than The Fords in a straight line, but quicker on corner exit. And nearly as cheap. But then, that would defeat the purpose of the experimental formula, now, wouldn't it?
 
niky
*polite snip*
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The difference remains similar, though: while I understand that Formula E is going to improve on the quality of electric motors, and improve the motors etc., I also think that there could be a series dedicated to producing the highest percentage of electric cars to finish... Effectively, one of the things that keeps people from buying modern electric cars, is the "limited range." Why not make a series, where every car will finish, and show the companies, "hey, look, electric cars finally have a range equivalent to gas powered cars! They can finish this long race (F1 length?) so they can finish a trip from Point A to Point B, if need be.


Formula E might be too complex for its own good. There are too few restrictions, really, because everyone will focus on the normal stuff: bigger tires, lighter cars, more downforce, to make it go through corners faster, to gain time without hurting the battery life. Low weight means good acceleration, and better handling; as a benefit, that better handling gets you faster exit speeds, allowing more speed on the straights, with the same amount of power, and the same amount of output.



So, eventually, you'll have Red Bull X2010s in the corners, with about 100 horsepower in the straights, in order to be able to finish the race first, without pitting too often.
 
At 1ness
I have seen some of the cheaper variants use spools of nylon, but apparently 3D printers can use around 14 different kinds of material.
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Brilliantly, it's possibly to 3D print metals as well as synthetics. Which is great, as you can print the bodywork, but also print stuff like suspension components, brakes, and all sort of other things too. And, quantity of materials considered, it costs no more to 3D print something spectacularly complicated then it would to make something incredibly simple. A kilo of materials is a kilo of materials, as far as a 3D printer is concerned.

MrMelancholy15
I also think that there could be a series dedicated to producing the highest percentage of electric cars to finish... Effectively, one of the things that keeps people from buying modern electric cars, is the "limited range." Why not make a series, where every car will finish, and show the companies, "hey, look, electric cars finally have a range equivalent to gas powered cars! They can finish this long race (F1 length?) so they can finish a trip from Point A to Point B, if need be.
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That will come as a result of improving the technology itself, rather than being the sole focus of it.

Motorsport is already all about efficiency. Ideally, you want to use as little of everything as possible in order to win a race. Colin Chapman knew this and built racing cars only just strong enough (or not, as the case often was) to make race distance.

Modern race cars are the same. You want to do as much with as little fuel, tyres, weight etc as possible.

Setting electric racing cars a distance target and saying "make it last!" isn't as productive as making them go as fast as possible while still finishing a race. It doesn't matter how long the race is really, as the technology scales up. An absolutely tiny battery that does 5 laps very quickly is equally as scaleable as a larger battery that can do an F1 distance.

Technology coming from the sport should be natural, not forced. Disc brakes were used in motorsport, and made the transition over to road cars. People didn't invent road car disc brakes and then think, "right, now let's improve them with motorsport". Same with ABS, active suspension, fuel injection and a dozen other things.

That's why giving teams a reasonably free rein with ideas will automatically benefit road car development, rather than forcing a constraint like range on the racers.
 
homeforsummer
Brilliantly, it's possibly to 3D print metals as well as synthetics. Which is great, as you can print the bodywork, but also print stuff like suspension components, brakes, and all sort of other things too. And, quantity of materials considered, it costs no more to 3D print something spectacularly complicated then it would to make something incredibly simple. A kilo of materials is a kilo of materials, as far as a 3D printer is concerned.
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Wow!, i had no idea they could print metal aswell. 3D printings going to be the way forward for everything i think.
This country (UK) needs to invest heavily into this stuff (imo).
 
MrMelancholy15
But, for those people who stubbornly refuse to believe electric cars can make long distances...
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That's entirely the problem of the stubborn people then, isn't it?

Let's face it, the sort of people who hate EVs - despite knowing very little about them and almost certainly having never driven one - aren't going to be convinced even when the cars are both cheaper and longer range than regular cars. Some people are too stuck in their beliefs to change their opinions regardless of what happens.
 
After watching drives shakedown on the new Formula E series, wow! I am excited! And its coming next year in September!👍👍

Here is the video.


This will be very interesting, and I also think that this series will help with development of electric cars on the road.

What do think of this electric racing series?
 
First Thought:
Another FIA sanctioned open wheel single seater series? I thought Berger was supposed to weed out the feeder jungle?

After some thought, it's something that certainly is a good technology playground to get the equipment advanced. Electric racing has some new performance aspects such as single wheel propulsion control, which makes for awesome cornering capabilities. A good example is the e-SLS (Chris Harris- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IElqf-FCMs8)

I guess the missing engine sound is just something one gets used to quickly.
 
Third Reign
First Thought:
Another FIA sanctioned open wheel single seater series? I thought Berger was supposed to weed out the feeder jungle?

After some thought, it's something that certainly is a good technology playground to get the equipment advanced. Electric racing has some new performance aspects such as single wheel propulsion control, which makes for awesome cornering capabilities. A good example is the e-SLS (Chris Harris- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IElqf-FCMs8)

I guess the missing engine sound is just something one gets used to quickly.
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Nice, did not know about single wheel propulsion control, I dont mind the lack of engine sound, its sounds different.
 
I'll try to follow this closely. I'm liking the concept of it, I just hope they can get the attention they need to succeed. 3 teams and 2 manufacturers so far is good.
 
I'm not sure what to make of Formula E. The design renderings of some of the cars look like a mash-up of Indycar and F1. The working demonstration car looks like a USF2000 car in my eyes.

Whether EV technology in motorsport will catch on is anyone's guess but I can't see the appeal of watching a bunch of EV single seaters going around a circuit emitted next to no noise apart from a whirring whine.

With current battery technology, I doubt that short sprint races in Formula E would be enough to catch on. If the FIA can make Formula E work then kudos to them, but I remain pretty skeptical especially as sports car racing seems to make better use of technology transfers to road cars.
 
One would be forgiven for thinking that because most of the posters seem to spend most of their days with their head in a racing car engine bay, many who have corresponded seem to be over thinking and over analysing things.

homeforsummer @ post 70 I completely am with 100% on. I don't give two shiny shades about how it sounds or what it looks like. When they say is is a completely new concept they mean it is a completely new concept. It is in no way intended to be a 'sign of things to come' or a detraction from the current mechanical and technical trends.

My only issue is the 'push to pass' rule. The drivers will only use a power-boost a pre-determined number of times. One of the worst ideas of F1 was KERS. This is almost the same thing. I don't know whether KERS will be installed or if the power will come from another route.

The teams so far look decent. Andretti Autosport, Drayson Racing and China Racing have already signed up with a 4th to be announced on the 25th of July. And they all will have top drivers racing for them who will be able to race two cars at one meeting which will be powered by Renault engines so theirs the pedigree of having one of the top engine manufacturers running the cars.

I look forward to it.
 
Third Reign
I guess the missing engine sound is just something one gets used to quickly.
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I'm not so sure about that... I'm used to racing things that have an engine, not an electric motor. I'm going to assume that the Formula E cars are going to have one gear and definitely no engine noise; it's just weird racing a car where you can easily hear yourself speak and the wind rushing past your helmet where normally these are muffled out by engine noises.
 
It looks very good. Anyone who has seen electric race cars in action, or has even driven a car such as the Nissan Leaf, will know that these are the real deal and not to be underestimated.

Whether it can attract enough fans and sponsors is a completely different matter. I don't think it can in the forseeable future, so the organisers are going to have to throw a hell of a lot of money at it to keep it going until electric cars become more mainstream.

One of the big engineering challenges they will have is cooling. Cooling is a huge problem for electric motors in hot climates, more so than internal combustion engines. At Formula Student UK 2013, a good 2/3 of the EV vehicles broke down due to overheating. It's not good for the show to see the cars gradually slow down over the course of 3-4 laps and then slow to a crawl. This was only in Silverstone, what would it be like in hotter climates?

As for performance, the amount of torque EV can generate is stupid, that's the only word I can use to describe it. They can produce peak torque instantly, and it can be maintained as the vehicle gains speed. No combustion engine can do that. The battery technology does exist to keep these cars going for a full race distance without loading the car with too much weight (At least, not more than you would get with a standard engine). With the help of regenerative technology these cars can go for even longer, potentially able to compete in endurance events. Done correctly, EV can blow away traditional vehicles.
 
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I drove an electric go-kart, and the shove was fantastic, slow speed corners, sloppy surface... Electric torque, it was great! Even the leaf I drove felt like its response would be fun (even if the car is yuck)

I hope this series gets going, but I'm not sure how well it will be recieved.
 
MatskiMonk
I drove an electric go-kart, and the shove was fantastic, slow speed corners, sloppy surface... Electric torque, it was great! Even the leaf I drove felt like its response would be fun (even if the car is yuck)

I hope this series gets going, but I'm not sure how well it will be recieved.
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Speaking of which, I'm going to be testing an electric kart tomorrow. I'll tell you guys how it goes 👍 .
 
MSTER232
Speaking of which, I'm going to be testing an electric kart tomorrow. I'll tell you guys how it goes 👍 .
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Isn't it sort of overpriced to make a good electric kart for Rotax money, with Rotax or better performance? I was actually considering it, until I found out that the only sort of motor that would be cheaper than gas, would be pencil-sharpener sized...
 
Someone on the facebook Mulsanne Corner page (AKA - motor racing techies) linked a document that said that the drivers swap cars due to the battery charge. I'm not sure if that is right, but surely if it is then thats pretty costly? Also Andretti Autosport have confirmed they will be charging in as well.
 
Furinkazen
Someone on the facebook Mulsanne Corner page (AKA - motor racing techies) linked a document that said that the drivers swap cars due to the battery charge. I'm not sure if that is right, but surely if it is then thats pretty costly? Also Andretti Autosport have confirmed they will be charging in as well.
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They have to make 2 pit stops to change cars, they change back to the first car during the second stop after it gets charged up again.
 
I'm not sure it really generates a good image about electric cars if they have to switch cars due to battery life. Surely just having short races would be better than that?
 
Am I the only one who thought the acronym "Power" would be fitting for this sires?
"Power" standing for Professional Open Wheel Electric Racing.
 

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