FORZA 3 not a Sim according to KY?

[PAPPACLART]

As per the Thread Title

http://www.boomtown.net/en_uk/articles/art.view.php?id=18804


This will be fun....

PS

(*MODS*) If this has been posted already please accept apologies.

 

[Devedander]

That was his opinion and he said it doesn't feel quite like a sim. That's a pretty open statement really and considering he makes GT and it would be assumed he feels GT feels like a sim, and Forza definitely does feel different from GT... well his statement seems logical from his point of view.

 

[Kryz11]

I would agree, play iRacing most realistic sim racer out there, then play Gran Turismo 5 Prologue, you will feel right at home.. Then play FM3.. its different, not realistic, bad track designs from real circuits, no lift throttle overseer, and too easy to drive cars fast, brake too late and you still manage to get decent lap time..

 

[FyreandIce]

I would agree, play iRacing most realistic sim racer out there, then play Gran Turismo 5 Prologue, you will feel right at home.. Then play FM3.. its different, not realistic, bad track designs from real circuits, no lift throttle overseer, and too easy to drive cars fast, brake too late and you still manage to get decent lap time..

Thanks for sharing your opinion neatly disguised as fact o-O

Anyway, what would people expect ky to say? of course he is going to say his game is better/more realistic then X game. All developers do it with any game that is in competition or of the same style.

Hell, EA said they were confident that Shift was a better game then FM3...

 

[Loon]

I would agree, play iRacing most realistic sim racer out there, then play Gran Turismo 5 Prologue, you will feel right at home.. Then play FM3.. its different, not realistic, bad track designs from real circuits, no lift throttle overseer, and too easy to drive cars fast, brake too late and you still manage to get decent lap time..

You obviously haven't driven the Fiat 500.

 

[alba]

I'd have to agree with him but it's his opinion obviously and I hope people don't take it out of context and start going all "LOL KY TROLLING!". I have this "feel" when I play GT that I don't have on Forza, thing is I don't play with a wheel which I should but that's how it is, even on the pad it feels just a little more natural I guess.

 

[LaBounti]

Maybe he's referring to the poor human simulation and no shifting or pedal work. Kinda takes away from the realism even if it has no effect on gameplay.

 

[Terronium-12]

i would agree, play iracing most realistic sim racer out there, then play gran turismo 5 prologue, you will feel right at home.. Then play fm3.. Its different, not realistic, bad track designs from real circuits, no lift throttle overseer, and too easy to drive cars fast, brake too late and you still manage to get decent lap time..

Have you played FM3? Some C class cars can't even take moderately wide corners without the back end stepping out, let alone the classes higher up. As for the lap, that could be true...considering you don't end up in a dirt patch or having to use rewind to get the corner just right....in which case you're not setting any kind of a lap time because it's been invalidated.

As for KY, I didn't have a problem when Dan said it for FM3 and I'm not going to find a problem in this. It's their brainchild, of course it's going to better than this and that game to them.

 

[FyreandIce]

Have you played FM3? Some C class cars can't even take moderately wide corners without the back end stepping out, let alone the classes higher up. As for the lap, that could be true...considering you don't end up in a dirt patch or having to use rewind to get the corner just right....in which case you're not setting any kind of a lap time because it's been invalidated.

As for KY, I didn't have a problem when Dan said it for FM3 and I'm not going to find a problem in this. It's their brainchild, of course it's going to better than this and that game to them.

Some people must have warped ideas of what a "decent lap is"

Being a second and a half slower then a normal lap is by no means "decent" and that is about the time you lose by simply locking up and running wide on one corner.

Another thing, a real life car should not be difficult to drive at 90% of its capabilities. Driving at 100% is where skill comes in and you get rewarded for it in FM3. Just over stepping the mark will take half a second away or not using 100% of your grip around a corner and on the exit will give you slow lap times.

There is only 1 thing that I can think of that FM3 doesn't simulate well and that is "pendulam" over steer i.e you poorly catch a slide (over correct) and you spin out in the other direction.

It does happen but you need to really drive bad to have it happen.

 

[osrg]

I would agree, play iRacing most realistic sim racer out there, then play Gran Turismo 5 Prologue, you will feel right at home.. Then play FM3.. its different, not realistic, bad track designs from real circuits, no lift throttle overseer, and too easy to drive cars fast, brake too late and you still manage to get decent lap time..

How are you travelling on the HotLap leaderboards NoxNoctis????

In GT5 Time Trial, i have dozens and dozens of top 10 times, and quite a few top 5's........ where is my best currently in Forza 3?

Suzuka full in a Porsche 997 GT3........ where i'm in the Top 1% of all times (1,843 of nearly 138,000 times), but i am nearly 6 seconds adrift of P1.

I'd say forza is a darn sight harder than you're willing to give it credit for.

 

[J-PaP]

How are you travelling on the HotLap leaderboards NoxNoctis????

In GT5 Time Trial, i have dozens and dozens of top 10 times, and quite a few top 5's........ where is my best currently in Forza 3?

Suzuka full in a Porsche 997 GT3........ where i'm in the Top 1% of all times (1,843 of nearly 138,000 times), but i am nearly 6 seconds adrift of P1.

I'd say forza is a darn sight harder than you're willing to give it credit for.

That doesn't really determine how hard/easy a game is. Give me a GT game and I'm pretty good at it even online. Get me to play Ferrari Challenge or even Burnout and I am one of the slowest out there even after spending 50 odd hours on each. Neither of those two games are "harder" than GT but if you don't understand the gameplay you will be slow regardless how hard/easy a game is.

 

[mr_VOLCANO]

Well said J-PaP 👍 I have same "problem" with arcade racers, because some arcade racers are so far from reality Its hard to feel how hard you can push the car. Have not tried forza3 yet, but after my experience with both series I think gt5 will be more realistic, no im not a fan boy

 

[Kryz11]

Yeah I own FM3 i love that game, but its a sim / arcade in my book. For me its easy to drive cars maybe bit too easy, I play iRacing and GT5P, these two games feel more SIM like as well both games feel simular in FFB (altho iRacing is better in it) and how cars feel and react.

And yes this is my opinion!

 

[MustangSVT]

I've been playing Forza 3 with the MS wheel and it's pretty difficult, much more difficult than with the controller. It's almost as if it has different physics with the wheel.

 

[Kryz11]

I've been playing Forza 3 with the MS wheel and it's pretty difficult, much more difficult than with the controller. It's almost as if it has different physics with the wheel.

Have you play GT with the wheel? same thing

 

[The Outlaw]

Just because it is harder to achieve a top time (top .01%) in FM3 vs. GT5P doesn't mean it's more realistic in terms of physics either.

 

[FyreandIce]

Yeah I own FM3 i love that game, but its a sim / arcade in my book. For me its easy to drive cars maybe bit too easy, I play iRacing and GT5P, these two games feel more SIM like as well both games feel simular in FFB (altho iRacing is better in it) and how cars feel and react.

And yes this is my opinion!

Tell me exactly how you play FM3.

Controller and assist settings.

Just because it is harder to achieve a top time (top .01%) in FM3 vs. GT5P doesn't mean it's more realistic in terms of physics either.

How do you figure?

Are you telling me (or do you honestly believe) that any profesional racing team can pull anyone off the street, put them into a car and they would be able to set laptimes that are 0.1 second off what a real race car driver can do?

 

[McLaren]

I would agree, play iRacing most realistic sim racer out there, then play Gran Turismo 5 Prologue, you will feel right at home.. Then play FM3.. its different, not realistic, bad track designs from real circuits, no lift throttle overseer, and too easy to drive cars fast, brake too late and you still manage to get decent lap time..

Wow, last I checked, I was doing that in Gran Turismo, too.

 

[The Outlaw]

How do you figure?

Are you telling me (or do you honestly believe) that any profesional racing team can pull anyone off the street, put them into a car and they would be able to set laptimes that are 0.1 second off what a real race car driver can do?

How did you manage to come up with this crap based off what I said???

 

[MustangSVT]

Have you play GT with the wheel? same thing

I only play GT with the wheel and I didn't feel it was that difficult, in fact I've found GT to be pretty easy to drive, for me anyway.

My point is that it appears to me that Forza 3 shows more realistic physics with the wheel, at least that's what it seems like anyway. I'd still say it's not on the level of say like Live For Speed, but it's pretty darn realistic. I've been using my "sim-senses" when driving Forza 3 with the MS wheel and the handling feels realistic and natural.

 

[FyreandIce]

How did you manage to come up with this crap based off what I said???

Just because it is harder to achieve a top time (top .01%) in FM3 vs. GT5P doesn't mean it's more realistic in terms of physics either.

Do you even read what YOU type?

It is clear from this very quote that you think every man and his dog should be able to set properly fast times on a race track.


Just quickly, can someone link a youtube video of a good laptime in GT5.

p.s oh, and can you make sure it shows throttle and brake usage, pro physics and no assists if possible.

 

[Kryz11]

Here is the replay for GT5P PRO physics, with the wheel and clutch



I think he uses wheel with this one also..

PRO physics..




Also I wanna mention that KAZ promises even better physics realism in GT5! Also in TOKOY GAME SHOW DEMO the physics felt different especially when braking, the car was more unstable over GT5Prologue.

I only play GT with the wheel and I didn't feel it was that difficult, in fact I've found GT to be pretty easy to drive, for me anyway.

My point is that it appears to me that Forza 3 shows more realistic physics with the wheel, at least that's what it seems like anyway. I'd still say it's not on the level of say like Live For Speed, but it's pretty darn realistic. I've been using my "sim-senses" when driving Forza 3 with the MS wheel and the handling feels realistic and natural.

MS is only 120 degree or so so its not realistic at all, all reviews say FFB sucks.. so get a better wheel first before u can say its better There are so many stories when people have too easy or too hard time with the wrong wheel.

Hmm It took me long time to get hang on the wheel with GT games.
I dont have wheel for FM3 yet, because I am saving for the Fanatec wheel.

And I play with all assists OFF (sometimes ABS on and off) And manual shift no clutch.

 

[mr_VOLCANO]

Do you even read what YOU type?

It is clear from this very quote that you think every man and his dog should be able to set properly fast times on a race track.


Just quickly, can someone link a youtube video of a good laptime in GT5.

p.s oh, and can you make sure it shows throttle and brake usage, pro physics and no assists if possible.

Are you serious?! So because i feel grid is harder to get a good time on then gt5p, does that mean grid is more realistic? No! IMO i think realistic physics is often easyer, because i know how cars should react.

 

[The Outlaw]

Do you even read what YOU type?

It is clear from this very quote that you think every man and his dog should be able to set properly fast times on a race track.

You're obviously a bit confused to say the least First of all, how in the hell did I even come close to implying that every man and his dog should be able to set fast times around a race track???

If you had any reading comprehension skills before jumping in trying to make a point that just isn't there, you would have realized my statement basically and literally meant this - just because a racing game is more difficult than another, doesn't make it more REALISTIC than the other game. For example, say you play GT5P with a wheel using a proper FFB setting...then you turn the FFB off completely. The game would then be much more difficult to achieve a good time with the FFB off, but just because it's more difficult to achieve a good time doesn't mean it's more realistic...because you would then be lacking the feeling of FFB which also makes it more realistic. So what else do you want me to say?

You're obviously reading into SOMETHING too deeply...so quit twisting my arm please, because I'm simply wasting my time by having to defend myself and credibility over your nonsense 👎

 

[The Outlaw]

Sorry for the double post, but here's a PROPER lap done in Prologue using the F430, driven by Struppi 👍 Of course he makes it look easy, but the car is much harder to keep balanced on that fine edge than it looks, especially considering the mid-engine/lift oversteer characteristics of the car.

 

[MustangSVT]

MS is only 120 degree or so so its not realistic at all, all reviews say FFB sucks.. so get a better wheel first before u can say its better There are so many stories when people have too easy or too hard time with the wrong wheel.

Hmm It took me long time to get hang on the wheel with GT games.
I dont have wheel for FM3 yet, because I am saving for the Fanatec wheel.

And I play with all assists OFF (sometimes ABS on and off) And manual shift no clutch.

The MS wheel is 270 degrees, not 120 degree, so it's realistic enough. The FFB is not incredible, but it is alright. Why should I get a better wheel before I can say it's better? What I'm saying is that to me, it seems that the game is much more difficult and realistic with the wheel. I can get a proper feel of the car and I have to use the same type of approach I would use in a PC racing sim (such as LFS) when I use the wheel in Forza 3 which leads me to believe that the physics model is different with a wheel. I know very well how to play a game with a steering wheel and what a feeling of 'realistic physics' are. I've been playing PC racing games with steering wheel and pedals since 1998 and I have played and own majority of PC race sims out there, Live For Speed, GT Legends, rFactor, iRacing, Grand Prix Legends, Grand Prix 4, I could go on. If you want me, I'll post you a screenshot of my three 24" LCD monitor setup with Logitech G25 steering wheel playing GTR 2.

You can choose to believe me or not, what I'm saying is that as far as I can tell, the physics model or at least the assists model for Forza 3 is more realistic when using the MS wheel. I have not used the Fanatec wheel and I cannot comment on that. If Fanatec actually offered their wheel for sale through distributors than their crappy website, then I might have considered buying one.

Kaz can say a lot of things about Forza 3, but the physics are definitely there. The only things wrong with Forza 3 are the fact that the online matchmaking sucks, and that there will always be certain cars that dominate some of the classes, and the fact that Logitech wheels (G25, DFP, etc) do not work on Xbox 360.

FYI, I can drive too fast and brake too late and get great lap times in GT5 Prologue. I've played iRacing quite a bit and GT5 Prologue feels nothing like iRacing at all. Forza 3 actually does feel a bit like iRacing with the wheel, in terms of having to be super careful on the throttle and brakes, but maybe that's just the fact I was driving a BMW M3 GTR with stock setup in Forza 3. That being said, I would say neither GT5P or Forza 3 are close at all to the iRacing physics so I don't think you can make that statement.

 

[FyreandIce]

Sorry for the double post, but here's a PROPER lap done in Prologue using the F430, driven by Struppi 👍 Of course he makes it look easy, but the car is much harder to keep balanced on that fine edge than it looks, especially considering the mid-engine/lift oversteer characteristics of the car.

What I am looking for is throttle and brake control entering and exiting corners. The DB9 video showed what looks like an arcade game. The only throttle control was to keep speed up through corners and absolutely no finesse to braking or steering.

Anyway, will start loading this F430 video (slow internet), see if that is any different.

Ok, I watched most of it and it shows pretty much thme thing except there is abit more control shown in the steering and brakes but there is still no throttle control.

Also, timeattack, it seems you have no idea what lift off over steer is because there where quite a few times where the back end should have come out if it was ever going to (turn 1 and 2 for example). And finally, the guy put the power way too soon for the car. Hell, he was full throttle at the apex of the left hand hairpin.

p.s Saying "no throttle control" isn't exactly true, there is some in the video but no where near as much as there should be. The player doesn't feed the power on. All there is, is no throttle, half throttle and full.

p.s.s Oh, and I tried to do some laps in FM3 with the same car but for some reason I cannot load Suzuka full circuit

 

[osrg]

Yeah I own FM3 i love that game, but its a sim / arcade in my book. For me its easy to drive cars maybe bit too easy, I play iRacing and GT5P, these two games feel more SIM like as well both games feel simular in FFB (altho iRacing is better in it) and how cars feel and react.

And yes this is my opinion!

Hey no probs there..... everyone varies in skill and abilities.... my experience says yes it "feels" easier in certain aspects than Prologue, yet in other areas it feels more difficult.

That doesn't really determine how hard/easy a game is. Give me a GT game and I'm pretty good at it even online. Get me to play Ferrari Challenge or even Burnout and I am one of the slowest out there even after spending 50 odd hours on each. Neither of those two games are "harder" than GT but if you don't understand the gameplay you will be slow regardless how hard/easy a game is.

Valid points indeed JPap..... my initial point was that Forza is a little deeper than an "arcade" racer, which i still believe to be true IMHO.

Cut cut it short, i'll be more than happy to let Prologue collect dust for the 6 or so months until GT5 lands.... call me a fan of both consoles i guess.

 

[Scaff]

What I am looking for is throttle and brake control entering and exiting corners. The DB9 video showed what looks like an arcade game. The only throttle control was to keep speed up through corners and absolutely no finesse to braking or steering.

Anyway, will start loading this F430 video (slow internet), see if that is any different.

Ok, I watched most of it and it shows pretty much thme thing except there is abit more control shown in the steering and brakes but there is still no throttle control.

Also, timeattack, it seems you have no idea what lift off over steer is because there where quite a few times where the back end should have come out if it was ever going to (turn 1 and 2 for example). And finally, the guy put the power way too soon for the car. Hell, he was full throttle at the apex of the left hand hairpin.

p.s Saying "no throttle control" isn't exactly true, there is some in the video but no where near as much as there should be. The player doesn't feed the power on. All there is, is no throttle, half throttle and full.

p.s.s Oh, and I tried to do some laps in FM3 with the same car but for some reason I cannot load Suzuka full circuit

Can I just check that you have driven an F430 around Suzuka?

If not then you make some rather bold statements about how the car should be driven, particularly for someone who right at the start of this thread said this......

Thanks for sharing your opinion neatly disguised as fact o-O

.....as you have just done exactly the same thing.

I also wonder exactly what video you were watching, as the one I've just looked at had plenty of part throttle moments in it, and for good measure a lot of left-foot braking.

The driver is back to full throttle very quickly (as you should do on track and yes I do have experience of that), but its done smoothly. Quite frankly that's a well driven lap in anyone's books.

Now GT5 is far from perfect (not sim is perfect) and it does have its issues, but I would say that you need to give that lap a go in GT5 before decrying that lap as the driver used a good degree of throttle and brake control through corners 1 and 2 to avoid lift-off oversteer.


Scaff

 

[FyreandIce]

Can I just check that you have driven an F430 around Suzuka?

If not then you make some rather bold statements about how the car should be driven, particularly for someone who right at the start of this thread said this......



.....as you have just done exactly the same thing.

I also wonder exactly what video you were watching, as the one I've just looked at had plenty of part throttle moments in it, and for good measure a lot of left-foot braking.

The driver is back to full throttle very quickly (as you should do on track and yes I do have experience of that), but its done smoothly. Quite frankly that's a well driven lap in anyone's books.

Now GT5 is far from perfect (not sim is perfect) and it does have its issues, but I would say that you need to give that lap a go in GT5 before decrying that lap as the driver used a good degree of throttle and brake control through corners 1 and 2 to avoid lift-off oversteer.


Scaff

Sorry, didn't mean for it to come across as stating facts. But when you think of a 480hp light weight mid engined car, the last thing you would think of doing is stamping on the throttle when going through a low speed hairpin.

As I corrected myself there is some throttle control but it is more just going from nothing to half and then to full. There are only a few corners where teh driver is at 100% of the cars capabilities.

The entry through turn 1 (though not the exit of turn 2)

The banked right hander just before the bridge (a little over 100% actually)

I can't say how the last section was (after the high speed left into the final chicane) because after 40 minutes that had not loaded yet.