Forza Horizon 4 Dev Interview: Recreating UK Weather & The "Arcade/Sim" Spectrum

Silver Arrows
The problem with this is that you're cutting out a large chunk of people that would be interested in the scope and style of a Horizon game if it had the physics and the daunting wall of entry that comes with having sim based controls, and having to shell out so much money for peripherals.

The problem isn't the fact that we wouldn't be interested in a more sim-like Horizon experience. The problem is that it would only be played by a fraction of the people that are currently playing Horizon, and ultimately, that is one of the keys to Horizon's success.
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The difficulty of controlling a sim like PCARS2 is a consequence of shortcomings in its analog stick steering, which is SMS' fault. Purists cry "blasphemy!" at the necessary input processing -- part of the problem with PCARS is that internally, SMS kind of shares that mindset -- but Enthusia proved you can mate more realistic physics to GT-/Forza-style steering control. It is much more tamped-down than PCARS2, after all.

Accessibility is fine; after all, things can be made optional and only the no-fun-allowed purists would continue to complain. I'm also okay with abbreviated braking distances, unrealistic jumps, that kind of stuff Horizon has been known for since FH1. My primary concern is handling dynamics/behavior. All I want is a game like Horizon that is more natural and intuitive.

Don't get me wrong -- I know T10/PG are justified in leaving it alone. I'm just one of a minority of players lost in the middle between less-realistic driving games and realistic circuit-based racing sims, where my wishes are overlooked on this side of things and met with hostility in a place like the PCARS2 subforum. :ouch:
 
VXR
To be fair, all of the Horizons do a decent job of car handling if you don't drive everywhere with gay abandon. Drive more like it's a real road and it is a very good simulation of fast road driving.
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I think this sums up the problem with FH3's map. The infrastructure was designed in a way that promoted shortcuts across areas you wouldn't always want to drive in any car. This doesn't seem to be a problem in FH4's world.
 
I enjoyed reading the part about capturing seasonal atmospherics.

Ralph
Yeah! If it’s not fun, I’d be really worried. But if they’re saying “oh it’s not a sim” or “it’s not really arcade” I could not care less.
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I'm surprised Playground Games seemingly doesn't worry about this spectrum. In my opinion, simulation is fun when done right where it counts. Arcade is fun when done right where it counts. My point within a Forza Horizon context? Simulation is preferable when all four wheels touch the ground, but not so much when landing hard after a massive jump. Playground Games usually does very well when bridging that gap, so fingers crossed for FH4.

The Crew 2 demonstrated how you can create an arcade game (fun on paper) that isn't fun because simulation wasn't a noticeable priority.
 
Nielsen
I'm surprised Playground Games seemingly doesn't worry about this spectrum. In my opinion, simulation is fun when done right where it counts. Arcade is fun when done right where it counts. My point within a Forza Horizon context? Simulation is preferable when all four wheels touch the ground, but not so much when landing hard after a massive jump. Playground Games usually does very well when bridging that gap, so fingers crossed for FH4.

The Crew 2 demonstrated how you can create an arcade game (fun on paper) that isn't fun because simulation wasn't a noticeable priority.
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I think their point is that they focus on what feels fun, and they don't care about the argument over where the result falls on the Sim---Arcade spectrum.

They aren't focused on making a "sim" racer or an "arcade" racer - just a racing game that feels good to play.
 
ShakesMcQueen
I think their point is that they focus on what feels fun, and they don't care about the argument over where the result falls on the Sim---Arcade spectrum.

They aren't focused on making a "sim" racer or an "arcade" racer - just a racing game that feels good to play.
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That is pretty much what Ralph was quoted for saying. Why are you repeating it?
 
Nielsen
That is pretty much what Ralph was quoted for saying. Why are you repeating it?
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Because you said you were surprised they don't worry about where their games fall on the spectrum. I was just explaining why I think they don't care or worry about it.

Unless you meant to say "not surprised", in which case, disregard.
 
Nielsen
I enjoyed reading the part about capturing seasonal atmospherics.
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Glad to hear that. This interview opportunity was initially pitched as one primarily about the seasons, so the atmospherics were a big focus for us going in. I figured the last bit would be where the most discussion would center though, which seems like the case. :D

I'm surprised Playground Games seemingly doesn't worry about this spectrum. In my opinion, simulation is fun when done right where it counts. Arcade is fun when done right where it counts. My point within a Forza Horizon context? Simulation is preferable when all four wheels touch the ground, but not so much when landing hard after a massive jump. Playground Games usually does very well when bridging that gap, so fingers crossed for FH4.

The Crew 2 demonstrated how you can create an arcade game (fun on paper) that isn't fun because simulation wasn't a noticeable priority.
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You sort of prove the point: fun shows up on both sides of the spectrum. Horizon gets brushed off as a simple arcade game by some folks, but there’s a lot of simulation going on under the skin, especially with all the seasons.

It’s slightly similar to the whole sim = difficult thing. Look at GT Sport: Kaz specifically said PD doesn’t subscribe to that notion. I think Playground has found a balance, one with a firm foundation in the real world, but with a layer of approachability that makes it accessible for a wide range of people.

A while back, @glassjaw brought up how GT1 would make a perfect arcade racer these days, at least from a physics perspective. I agree, and I think that even though it was considered more realistic than its contemporaries two decades ago, it was still able to tap into an inate “rightness” with the humble pad. Nowadays all the super-cereal sim racing games practically demand players spend multiple hundreds of dollars on accessories, scaring away folks that just want to have fun driving something they’ll never get to in the real world. Some elements of the community just compound this issue with increasingly elitist attitudes, and they’ll be a lot more vocal about their preferences than the people who just decide the hassle isn’t worth it, and move on to something else.
 
ShakesMcQueen
Because you said you were surprised they don't worry about where their games fall on the spectrum. I was just explaining why I think they don't care or worry about it.

Unless you meant to say "not surprised", in which case, disregard.
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Ok, but it's not like I didn't understand what Ralph said. I'm just surprised he sees it that way.
 
To all the people saying "no they don't want it to be a sim.....elitist mentality of pro sim people", i struggle to see how driving constantly at 180mph through sweepers and not crashing and burning is a challenge and fun? People want accurate renderings of cities, cars and sounds....but physics? No! its too hard!
 
unv412
To all the people saying "no they don't want it to be a sim.....elitist mentality of pro sim people", i struggle to see how driving constantly at 180mph through sweepers and not crashing and burning is a challenge and fun? People want accurate renderings of cities, cars and sounds....but physics? No! its too hard!
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The challenge comes when you race other vehicles. It slows you down enough when you're racing to give you an incentive not to do it. But not enough to make getting from place to place an inconvenience. That's all the physics I need because I don't care where on the sim/arcade spectrum FH4 lies, it's just an incredibly fun game. Have you played it?
 
unv412
To all the people saying "no they don't want it to be a sim.....elitist mentality of pro sim people", i struggle to see how driving constantly at 180mph through sweepers and not crashing and burning is a challenge and fun? People want accurate renderings of cities, cars and sounds....but physics? No! its too hard!
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shhh-let-people-enjoy-things-22211460.png
 
UKMikey
The challenge comes when you race other vehicles. It slows you down enough when you're racing to give you an incentive not to do it. But not enough to make getting from place to place an inconvenience. That's all the physics I need because I don't care where on the sim/arcade spectrum FH4 lies, it's just an incredibly fun game. Have you played it?
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yes i have played it....but on a g920.... and i struggled a bit with oversteer recovery with certain cars. The racing is a bit of a rush initially , but then turns into a lot of dirty passing and general smash em up derby crashes without the concequences of say a "beam NG " style game.

All i was initially saying was that it would be a better game ....for me.....if it had more realistic physics.

I kind of struggle with the arcade tricks used in being a fast driver.
For example , i 'm pretty good at table tennis.... but struggle on nintendo Wii table tennis.
I'm pretty good on the street (or at a track) drifting a real car....but struggle on FH4.

Hence, I wont play the Wii table tennis if offered a go.......and i would prefer not to play FH4.

Trouble is ...i'm an absolute car nut.... and the list of cars and the open world aspect suck me back in.
 
unv412
yes i have played it....but on a g920.... and i struggled a bit with oversteer recovery with certain cars. The racing is a bit of a rush initially , but then turns into a lot of dirty passing and general smash em up derby crashes without the concequences of say a "beam NG " style game.
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Sounds like you need to blueprint longer races then as the bashing is usually a consequence of short races.
 
unv412
To all the people saying "no they don't want it to be a sim.....elitist mentality of pro sim people", i struggle to see how driving constantly at 180mph through sweepers and not crashing and burning is a challenge and fun? People want accurate renderings of cities, cars and sounds....but physics? No! its too hard!
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It should be worth noting that most people who drive 180mph on the real highway, actually don't crash.

Make of that what you will, but it definitely happens. A lot.
 
unv412
yes i have played it....but on a g920.... and i struggled a bit with oversteer recovery with certain cars. The racing is a bit of a rush initially , but then turns into a lot of dirty passing and general smash em up derby crashes without the concequences of say a "beam NG " style game.
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It's a consequence of most games that don't extend their laps past 3 laps, as everyone has to rush to the front to win and the only way to do that is be dirty, unless you lower the difficulty. Like mentioned, use the Blueprint feature for the circuit based races and it'll flow much better. For sprint races, that will be hit and miss if its not a longer race.

unv412
on highways yes, but on sweepers as i mentioned? most cars with no real downforce will crash!
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Unless I tune my cars without downforce, that's usually how it ends up the majority of the time if I'm not paying attention. Still, I think you should take a step back and accept it for what it is rather than getting mad for what it's not. It's never came across as something that's trying to beat other sims on the market, so I'm not sure how someone can be upset about that after the fact.
 
unv412
To all the people saying "no they don't want it to be a sim.....elitist mentality of pro sim people", i struggle to see how driving constantly at 180mph through sweepers and not crashing and burning is a challenge and fun? People want accurate renderings of cities, cars and sounds....but physics? No! its too hard!
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People want the setting to look and feel like a real, immersive place. They want the gameplay to be FUN.

If you don't get what's fun about it for people, then it's not like I can say "ur rong" - it's a personal preference - but clearly millions of people enjoy the balance PG have struck with the physics and handling.
 
unv412
yes i have played it....but on a g920.... and i struggled a bit with oversteer recovery with certain cars. The racing is a bit of a rush initially , but then turns into a lot of dirty passing and general smash em up derby crashes without the concequences of say a "beam NG " style game.

All i was initially saying was that it would be a better game ....for me.....if it had more realistic physics.

I kind of struggle with the arcade tricks used in being a fast driver.
For example , i 'm pretty good at table tennis.... but struggle on nintendo Wii table tennis.
I'm pretty good on the street (or at a track) drifting a real car....but struggle on FH4.

Hence, I wont play the Wii table tennis if offered a go.......and i would prefer not to play FH4.

Trouble is ...i'm an absolute car nut.... and the list of cars and the open world aspect suck me back in.
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Turn off sim steering. Yes. I know. It says "Sim" and turning off something that says "Sim" hurts you deep in root of your soul. I FEEL YOUR PAIN, FOR I TOO SHARE IT.

Now get over it and go drift without worrying about silly unrealistic tank slappers. The E-brake is still OP compared to F7, and doesn't slow you down enough, but there is legit weight transfer and stuff more or less reacts as it should, if in a slightly exaggerated manner.

I enjoy drifting IRL. Forza Horizon isnt nearly as realistic as Forza 7 when it comes to drifting, but its drifting actually makes sense in the context of real world and how things actually work out there.
 

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