Forza Motorsport 3 Surpasses 2 Million Copies

[Terronium-12]

I think you should stop while you're still ahead, or behind.

Whichever way you choose to look at it.

 

[phil-t]

I think you should stop while you're still ahead, or behind.

Whichever way you choose to look at it.

Quite possibly.

 

[Jay]

XBox360/FM3 - 2.28m - 5.9%
PS3/LBP - 3.12m - 9.5%
XBox360/FM2 - 3.97m - 10.3%
PS3/Motorstorm - 3.51m - 10.7%
PS3/GT5P - 3.61m - 11.0%
PS3/RFoM - 3.67m - 11.2%
PS3/MGS4 - 4.59m - 14.0%
XBox360/Gears of War 2 - 5.61m - 14.6%
XBox360/Gears of War - 6.03m - 15.7%
XBox360/Halo 3 - 10.87m - 28.2%
Wii/Mario Kart - 21.46m - 31.3%
Wii/Wii Sports - 60.60m - 88.3%

(those last two are kinda scary, and I've left off a few Nintendo titles inbetween them)

Now, don't get me wrong, 6% market penetration in just over a quarter is okay. But for a game that is supposed to be a "killer app" to have ninety-four percent of all potential owners not bothering with it despite 4 months' opportunity? GT5P isn't a "killer app", but runs 11% penetration (though it's a budget title). Resistance and MGS haven't got within forty paces of either of my PS3s, and apparently I'm not alone, but have considerably better penetration than that!

Little pedantic I know but as of December 2009 GT5P actually sold 4.65m

http://www.polyphony.co.jp/english/list.html

 

[Famine]

Which is not the definition of a killer app though, I see where your confusion stems from. For it to be a killer app, it had to be a massive hardware mover, it was never designed to be, never marketed as, and didn't move many consoles, if you look at hardware sales, it didn't so much as blip... GT5, in contrast is a killer app, it's expected to, marketed too and we all know it will shift a mass of consoles (I'm included in that)..

Again, this has no bearing on it being a killer app.. the fact it did shift a few consoles to these people was just a bonus.

Except it's still the premier driving title on its platform. People still buy the consoles just for that game. I have an XBox I got just for FM1. I have an XBox360 that I got just for FM2.

Apologies, 'failing' is incorrect, you are simply unfairly downplaying it's sales and trying to say it is not performing well for a killer app. But considering you have inadvertantly misunderstood the meaning of a killer app is not surprising.

I don't see any unfairness in how I've portrayed the sales figures. I have quite clearly stated that though the number of sales themselves are fairly normal for a first party game, they are reasonably good considering the timeframe. I've also shown that 3rd party titles have better penetration on the PS3/360 but neither are anywhere near as good as 1st party Nintendo titles, on either raw sales or penetration.

User base = number of PS3 owners, the same benchmark your figures used..?

So KZ2 and FM3 don't have roughly the same userbase then, given that they appear on different platforms which have 20% differing sales figures?

"My" figures (which are nothing of the sort, and come from the same source you cited) are raw sales and market penetration (sales/available consoles). On raw sales, FM3 is okay for a first party title. On market penetration, FM3 is average for a first party title. On both, considering the comparative timeframe, FM3 is good.

Just the fact you are incorrectly (possibly on purpose) claiming FM3 is a killer app, and then trying to do your best to indicate that it isn't selling very well

I'm not doing - or attempting to do - anything of the sort. Read the words rather than just making them pink for some reason. I'll quote it again for you:

So... compared to other first party titles on the console... 2m is alright. 2m in 4 months is not bad. 2m on 38m consoles is... distinctly average, though in just 4 months it's pretty good.

Please find "isn't selling very well" in there.

It's selling pretty well for a 1st party title, not only based on it's predecessor, but to NFS:Shift and other driving games on the platform.

NFS: Shift isn't 1st party...

And? does owning a console mean your bias against an individual game is automatically banished?

No, it just makes a nonsense of the "some" who would try to claim a bias on my behalf.


You've read wrong, and based an argument on it. I haven't said FM3 is failing (as you claimed, now retracted). I haven't said it isn't selling very well (as you claimed). I haven't said anything negative at all about it. It doesn't need defending against the bad man who was nasty about it, because I said nothing nasty. I pointed out that 2m is okay, 2m in 4 months isn't bad, that 6% (look! I rounded up in its favour!) penetration is average and that 6% (I did it again!) penetration is 4 months is pretty good, for a first party, genre-leading, single-platform title. Find the bias in there (or get "some" to do it for you).

Little pedantic I know but as of December 2009 GT5P actually sold 4.65m

http://www.polyphony.co.jp/english/list.html

We're using VGChartz who are independent. Not that I don't trust PD, but I could be accused of all sorts of bias if I used their figures for their game and VGChartz's for all the others.

Oh, wait

 

[phil-t]

More Stuff

I think your argument is very false, you are classing FM3 as a killer app, judged it on being a killer app and decided it's sales where only just adequate for a 1st party title, using plenty of derogatory terminology ("less then stellar") that doesn't reek of positivity does it? And using percentage of total ownership that bought the game was for what reason? that it had a lower number then those games you 'selected', what was the point of that if not to present a negative image?

Just because I used the word 'failing' which was too harsh, does not suddenly vindicate your incorrect argument.

If you can find me facts that show FM3 was deemed a killer app by all and sundry, I'd be happy to say that the fact it sold as per normal for a 1st party title a little under-par.
However since I know you can't prove it's a killer app and the fact it has sold exactly as many high profile 1st party titles, I see no reason for you to present it's sales in such a negative light.

You seriously aren't now back peddling and trying to say that all your comments where not in an attempt to advocate FM3 is somehow under performing in sales and using the 'killer app' as the criteria to perform this?

 

[Famine]

I think made an incorrect argument, you are classing FM3 as a killer app, judged it on being a killer app and decided it's sales where only just adequate for a 1st party title, using plenty of derogatory terminology ("less then stellar") that doesn't reek of positivity does it?

And yet it's neither "failing" nor "isn't selling very well".

Look at the numbers. Look at the words.

Just because I used the word 'failing' which was too harsh, does not suddenly vindicate your incorrect argument.

I am not making an argument. You are - for some reason trying to argue against empirical data...

If you can find me facts that show FM3 was deemed a killer app by all and sundry, I'd be happy to say that the fact it sold as per normal for a 1st party title a little under-par.
However since I know you can't prove it's a killer app and the fact it has sold exactly as many high profile 1st party titles, I see no reason for you to present it's sales in such a negative light.

What negative light? READ THE WORDS:

"alright"
"not bad"
"distinctly average"
"pretty good"

I have portrayed the sales exactly as they are - average in total, better over the timeframe, for a first party, single-platform, PS3/360, genre-leading game.

"Killer app" is merely a matter of opinion - since I know it shifted consoles and that it's the leading example of its genre on one platform (first party or not), I class it as such. Apparently you don't. Woo. It doesn't change the objective data at hand - it is average in total, better over the timeframe, for a first party, single-platform, PS3/360, genre-leading game.

You seriously aren't now back peddling and trying to say that all your comments where not in an attempt to advocate FM3 is somehow under performing in sales?

If you class "back-peddling" (sic) as "repeatedly posting the same paragraph of text in the vain hope you'll eventually read it and stop pretending it contains words it actually doesn't", sure, why not?


I've said nothing bad about FM3. I've said nothing bad about its sales. And still you're highly defensive and borderline ad hominem.

 

[phil-t]

even more stuff

So what was the point of all your posts then? to tell us FM3 is doing very well and performing OK then?

What was all the rhubarb about 'killer-app' and the percentage attach rates for 1st party titles, or the total sales figures compared to the previous games LTD? or any of the other evidence? which all appear to show FM3 as the lest performing title based on your evidence.

I'd say your argument is very clear, you classed FM3 as a killer app and proceeded to regurgitate many facts and figures that indicated it was not performing as a killer app, which can only be taken as a negative representation of the game..

But it seems now that mixing the odd word that taken in isolation could be taken as a positive statement makes your argument somehow valid? Looking at the context, it's clear you are now getting pedantic to save admitting that FM3 isn't actually a killer app, and you've unfairly represented it.

I love the 'Ad hominem' comment, one bias comment was made, that's not the crux of my counter-argument at all..

 

[Terronium-12]

And yet you still carry on.

 

[phil-t]

And yet you still carry on.

Why not? It's a free world, and it's quite entertaining for me.

We all know Famine can never be wrong, and will twist and squirm and get as pedantic as possible to vindicate himself at my expense, which is what makes it so much fun.


Perhaps we can simplify it a bit,

Famine, can you sum up your stance/argument of FM3 in context of this 'killer app' and presented figures, so we can stop getting pedantic over trivial stuff, perhaps that will clarify to me if I understand your argument correctly?

 

[Famine]

So what was the point of all your posts then? to tell us FM3 is doing very well and performing OK then?

No. That it is performing at about the average in total, better over the timeframe, for a first party, single-platform, PS3/360, genre-leading game.

What was all the rhubarb about 'killer-app' and the percentage attach rates for 1st party titles, or the total sales figures compared to the previous games LTD? or any of the other evidence? which all appear to show FM3 as the lest performing title based on your evidence.

I'd say your argument is very clear, you classed FM3 as a killer app and proceeded to regurgitate many facts and figures that indicated it was not performing as a killer app, which can only be taken as a negative representation of the game..

Sure. If you ignore all the parts where I said it's performing at about the average in total, better over the timeframe, for a first party, single-platform, PS3/360, genre-leading game.

But yes, it's not performing at the level a killer app ought - since a killer app ought to be performing better than the average in total, better over the timeframe, for a first party, single-platform, PS3/360, genre-leading game. If you want to take that entire previous sentence as a negative representation - because as we all know, average is really a buzzword for awful (and not, as I'd thought all these years, "average") - you go right ahead. But then since you don't consider it a "killer app", it shouldn't really be relevant, leaving you with just "it's performing at about the average in total, better over the timeframe, for a first party, single-platform, PS3/360, genre-leading game."

Oh, what a terrible thing to say.

But it seems now that mixing the odd word that taken in isolation could be taken as a positive statement makes your argument somehow valid?

The... huh?

Looking at the context, it's clear you are now getting pedantic to save admitting that FM3 isn't actually a killer app, and you've unfairly represented it.

Yes. Spot on. Look, I even said it right here:

"Killer app" is merely a matter of opinion - since I know it shifted consoles and that it's the leading example of its genre on one platform (first party or not), I class it as such. Apparently you don't. Woo. It doesn't change the objective data at hand - it is average in total, better over the timeframe, for a first party, single-platform, PS3/360, genre-leading game.

Oh wait, I didn't. I reinforced the statement. Wait. Let's try this one:

But yes, it's not performing at the level a killer app ought - since a killer app ought to be performing better than the average in total, better over the timeframe, for a first party, single-platform, PS3/360, genre-leading game.

[...]

But then since you don't consider it a "killer app", it shouldn't really be relevant, leaving you with just "it's performing at about the average in total, better over the timeframe, for a first party, single-platform, PS3/360, genre-leading game."

Snap, that's not it either.


See, what I see is you being highly aggressive in your defence of... nothing at all, since nothing needs defending. Find the horrible things I said about how bad FM3's sales are and then you might have a case. Only they aren't there, so you don't - I said they're average in total, better over the timeframe, for a first party, single-platform, PS3/360, genre-leading game. That's not saying they're bad. That's not saying they're good. The word "average" is your friend.


But never mind, you can always post my words in pink, ignore them, invent things I didn't say and put them in quotation marks, ignore all the actual data at hand, say I'm twisting and squirming, back-peddling (sic) and pedantic and tacitly accuse me of bias while being blissfully unaware that I actually play the game. Since that's the foundation of a solid debate.

And to think I actually started off by upbraiding someone who was obviously an anti-FM3 fanboy trolling the thread.

 

[phil-t]

Stuff

So basically you are saying that FM3 is underperforming as a killer app.

This is exactly what I though and counter-argued. I do wonder why you chose to then place it in the least favourable light as even a regular 1st party title with your figures, but I guess I'll overlook that for now.

So it now boils down to the fact you have made up your own meaning for 'killer app', one that now fits your argument, yet is not the same as generally recognised. I don't know if you are being genuine in doing that and where just misguided in your own interpretation of the 'killer-app' or whether it's a Bill Clinton-esque careful redefinition to get out of admitting you were wrong.

So lets just concentrate on the 'killer app' definition.

End of the day, in the real world, by any stretch of the imagination, FM3 is not seen as a killer app, it's never been referred to as a 'killer app' by MS, the gaming press or similar.

When the game was launched, GT5 was highly expected that Christmas, there was no reason for any PS3 owner to buy a 360 just to play it, in fact it was only after the new year that it became apparent as to the size of delay GT5 was officially facing. If you look at the FM3 sales figures, there is no appreciable increase in sales of FM3 that correlate to the announcement of GT5's delay.

It's only been some weeks after the launch of FM3 that people on here made indications that they would get a 360 and FM3 due to the delay, and the numbers are remarkable small in context of the rest of the populous..

So to be clear, I am saying that I believe you where very much misguided to class 'FM3' as a killer app, as absolutely no credible evidence exists to back it up. Since that is the basis of your argument, I think it's best to concentrate just on this point.

[edit] I'm ignoring the latter half of your post, as that's a bit of ad-hominem and more contentious statements that would only serve to confuse.

 

[Famine]

*stuff*

Since that is the basis of your argument, I think it's best to concentrate just on this point.

And, as I have been at pains to point out to you, I am not making an argument. I am saying that, and have repeatedly said that FM3 is performing at about the average in total, better over the timeframe, for a first party, single-platform, PS3/360, genre-leading game.

Apparently this means that I think it's doing really badly.


However, if you want to press the point about killer apps, explain to me the phenomenon where, in the 6 weeks following the release of FM3, sales of the XBox360 worldwide picked up to pass the PS3 for the first time in 3 months. All the consoles saw an increase in sales over the period between September and Christmas, but the XBox360 increased at a rate beyond the others - then dipping below the PS3 again after that six-week spell.

18th October 2009 - 15th November 2009
XBox360: 146,425 - 437,915 (299% sales)
PS3: 260,969 - 392,837 (151% sales)
Wii: 377,411 - 543,225 (144% sales)

In Europe - as you point out, a motorsports game region - all the consoles also saw a spike, with the 360 increasing more than the others (380% to 197% to 165%) but failing to pass the PS3 by a matter of 1,700 units. The US tells a similar story (269% to 131% to 191%), though the 360 managed to outsell the PS3 for 3 solid weeks before dipping and recovering that position right through to Christmas.

Now, my definition of "killer app":

it shifted consoles and that it's the leading example of its genre on one platform

Doesn't seem at odds with the Wikipedia definition:

A killer application (commonly shortened to killer app), in the jargon of computer programmers and video gamers, has been used to refer to any computer program that is so necessary or desirable that it proves the core value of some larger technology, such as computer hardware like a gaming console, operating system or other software. A killer app can substantially increase sales of the platform on which it runs.

XBox360 sales nearly tripled in the US, nearly quadrupled in Europe and actually tripled worldwide in the six week period between the week before and five weeks after the launch of Forza Motorsports 3, increasing at a rate beyond that of the rate of increase of other consoles.

Doesn't seem unreasonable to me to class FM3 as a "killer app". Fun addendum - in that period (excluding Japan), FM3 sold just under 1.2m copies, and the 360 increased in sales (compared to the approximate baseline of the previous month) by 1.3m.

I'm ignoring the latter half of your post, as that's a bit of ad-hominem and more contentious statements that would only serve to confuse.

Considering they're all things you have said and done, it's entirely accurate - and it's a bit rich of someone who has done his best to demonise me while ignoring my points to accuse me of ad hominem attacks.

 

[chromatic9]

Before release I was expecting T10 and MS to really push Forza 3 and have a good go at GT with slick adverts and better presentation but from my view it never happened and the quality of the game isn't sufficient yet.

Felt like a flat release. Sold 175k in October then vanishes.

In the UK it went very cheap after a few weeks and its long presence in the UK charts is the same as Lego Batman and Pure being there for a while before it, meaning its heavily bundled.

 

[drivatar]

Just some points:

Vgchartz ist known for not being reliable. Use their numbers with caution. I know it's easy to use and often you don't find anything better.

IIRC Turn10 counts their sales without bundled copies. I don't know about PD and others.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=3786002&postcount=27
Interesting numbers. However it makes little sense to compare the sales of old games with the current installed hardware base.

 

[phil-t]

stuff

Yes, I do want to press the point about killer app, that's the basis of this argument afterall, well that and the subsequent transparent 'dig' in the following sentence, that somehow we are meant to take as you not being negative in anyway.

So you want an explanation of your badly chosen 6 week period?
- All consoles had a big increase in sales in that period, in fact the week FM3 was released, all consoles had an increase in sales that shows on the sales charts, but the big answer is, MW2 was released at the start of November.. In fact looking at the figures, as I'm sure you are aware, the week before and the week after MW2 was released there was a huge sales spike, there was barely a blip on the week before/after FM3.

I still think you grossly misunderstand the term killer-app, any game could shift a few HW units, it's not unexpected, and often reported, but the superlatives are used when HW sales dramatically increase, or else every game could just about give credit to the term killer-app..

Honestly, just read your original statement..

Obvious troll is obvious.


However, 2 million copies of a "killer-app" in... what... 4 months on sale, with a potential userbase of nearly 40 million - and a quarter of those in week 1?

It's not really a stellar performance - in fact it's only just over half what its predecessor managed so far.

Is there anyone that can't see the exceedingly thinly veiled dig at the sales figures? Are you seriously telling me that you didn't mean to imply that it wasn't doing very well sales wise?

You can get as pedantic as you want with individual words, but the context is as clear as day, the rhetoric that has ensued for you to argue this wasn't meant negatively is really quite worthless.

You even point out the guy is trolling with ludicrous statements, but then use the word 'however' which implies the following is supporting of such actoins.

 

[Terronium-12]

Forgive me for getting involved in this.. whatever it is you have going on here, but you seem to either be ignoring what Famine has said (repeatedly, might I add) or are just choosing to rewrite history to suit this argumentative tantrum you have going on; you continually take things out of context just to prolong an argument that just should not even have occurred in the first place. Golfman is/was a troll, and can clearly be identified as such by simply reading the dribble that was posted in this thread; calling Forza Motorsport, and every iteration thereof a "GT Wannabe" is asking for attention in the most negative of ways possible. If anyone wants to be technical, they're all REVS "wannabes" as this was one of, if not the first simulation-based racing games commercially available. To claim any game that came after it to be a wannabe would just be plain silly, wouldn't it?

Yes, yes it would.

As far as the tantrums go, Famine has said again and again (and again, and again once more) that Forza Motorsport 3 has done average for itself, nothing spectacular, but nothing awful either. The whole "killer-app" thing is getting a tad bit mundane as well, it's nothing but a glorified metaphor for "best seller" or to be even more simplistic, a "really good game". It has no value other than what people place upon it. I guess I'm taking sides now or something, but the argument is a bit ridiculous, regardless of who's involved.

 

[niky]

Did he say it was selling badly? No.

Did he say it wasn't a steller performance? Yes.

Implication? It's average?

EDIT: Tree'd, but that's okay. We're basically saying the same thing... because we both read the original post and came to the same conclusion. I don't see how what Famine wrote says or implies that the game is terrible... garbage... or whatever... though he is implying that its sales are hardly spectacular... yet hardly terrible... thus... average.

I'm baffled at what you're trying to tell us Famine is saying.

You're arguing with him over the definition of killer-app (by the way MW2 can't be cited as the main reason that the XBox overtook the PS3 since it came out for both consoles)... then arguing that he's saying it's underperforming (which he isn't).

Thinly veiled his dig is not. It's a blatantly obvious criticism of Forza for being average in terms of sales.

 

[phil-t]

Thinly veiled his dig is not. It's a blatantly obvious criticism of Forza for being average in terms of sales.

The argument is, that this blatant criticism is based on FM3 being a killer app, i.e. one expected to sell in large numbers and attract new HW sales, which is totally incorrect..

Obviously on a GT forum, I don't expect such games to get a huge fanbase, but I don't expect logic to be thrown out the window..

 

[phil-t]

Forgive me for getting involved in this.. whatever it is you have going on here, but you seem to either be ignoring what Famine has said (repeatedly, might I add) or are just choosing to rewrite history to suit this argumentative tantrum you have going on; you continually take things out of context just to prolong an argument that just should not even have occurred in the first place. Golfman is/was a troll, and can clearly be identified as such by simply reading the dribble that was posted in this thread; calling Forza Motorsport, and every iteration thereof a "GT Wannabe" is asking for attention in the most negative of ways possible. If anyone wants to be technical, they're all REVS "wannabes" as this was one of, if not the first simulation-based racing games commercially available. To claim any game that came after it to be a wannabe would just be plain silly, wouldn't it?

Yes, yes it would.

As far as the tantrums go, Famine has said again and again (and again, and again once more) that Forza Motorsport 3 has done average for itself, nothing spectacular, but nothing awful either. The whole "killer-app" thing is getting a tad bit mundane as well, it's nothing but a glorified metaphor for "best seller" or to be even more simplistic, a "really good game". It has no value other than what people place upon it. I guess I'm taking sides now or something, but the argument is a bit ridiculous, regardless of who's involved.

No one, including myself is remotely bothered about the fact FM3 has only just OK, no one is implying other wise,

It's the original statement where he sides with a troll, adding the statement that only has 1 context, to deride FM3 by classing it as killer app yet selling only half it's predecessor, both totally dubious claims..

Of course, he will tell me time and time and time and time and time again that pedantically he never used the word 'failing' or inferred such, but you have to be clinically brain dead to say the context of this statement was anything but a flawed dig at FM3, all that from a GT Mod? How could anyone think such a thing?

Worse still, how dare anyone point out that the criticism is flawed and quite inaccurately represented..

We all know how Famine operates, just goes off on a pedantic troll whenever he is questioned, however it may work on some people, but when you are wrong, you are wrong, you can't make factually incorrect and obvious criticisms and expect people to not retort to it..

 

[Terronium-12]

...I'll go back to eating my popcorn now.

 

[phil-t]

...I'll go back to eating my popcorn now.

It's clear that my argument is not understood, it's not about me thinking he's calling FM3 rubbish/poor preforming, it's just about misrepresenting facts for his criticism, but we will be going around in circles all day, this is not the place to do this.



I'll stop now

 

[Famine]

It's the original statement where he sides with a troll

Lulz. I think that and this:

We all know Famine can never be wrong

Tells everyone your motivation for this discussion and your understanding of it.


Notice how you're the only person that is having trouble seeing what I actually said - and the only one repeatedly trying to change it to suit your own ends.

all that from a GT Mod?

I'm a Forza mod too.

Your bias is obvious. Your motivation for arguing is obvious. Your pathetic attempts to misrepresent other members' statements are obvious. Your inability to operate within the boundaries of the AUP are obvious - and make no mistake, if I'd come into this thread and seen you talking to another member the way you're talking to me, you'd have been banned by now.

Argue the numbers all you like - FM3 has sold an average amount. If you think this is a criticism, you are wrong.