Forza Motorsport General Discussion Thread

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And there's absolutely nothing to substantiate your claim here. The studio of Turn 10 still has more employees than Reiza and they're doing fine with AMS2. The studio still has more employees than Straight4 and they're making Project Motor Racing. The studio still has more employees than Kunos and they're making Assetto Corsa Evo.
Who are you that we should believe such sensationalized claims?
Funny, I could ask you the same question.

Anyway...

T10, after the cut, may have more people, but they don't have the necessary people to make the game like all these studios you've mentioned do. I took a look at the list Draugnimir posted. Lead physics guy, sound guy, leading 3D artists, senior crew, all those cut. The pillars of the studio are gone. How do you make a game with just juniors and community managers? You don't.

No amount of wishful thinking here will change Microsoft's mind. They're worse than EA when it comes to axing stuff. All evidence points to Forza Motorsport going into Microsoft's endless fridge of unused IPs, come EoL for this game. Which will be a sad event, because this comes in FM's 20th anniversary. Forza started with Motorsport and Microsoft simply didn't do it justice past FM4.
 
They haven't made a "Forza" title for mobile for a long time now... Forza Street was such a delightful pile of steaming garbage ...surprise... when it turned up.

Forza Customs only closed down a few months ago after two years available - it wasn't a racing game though, just a glorified configurator with lots of silly bodykits wrapped around generic match-three gameplay or similar.
 
Since Phil repeated "the next Forza", and since it also seems there'll not be another "Motorsport", perhaps they'll see no need to keep the Horizon moniker as a differentiator and the next game will simply be "Forza" instead of FH6?
 
Since Phil repeated "the next Forza", and since it also seems there'll not be another "Motorsport", perhaps they'll see no need to keep the Horizon moniker as a differentiator and the next game will simply be "Forza" instead of FH6?
That would be stupid, you have a successful brand you use it. They have been saying the next forza before official announcements since 2012
 
Of course, what I am saying is speculative; but here I go.

If they were not going down the road of a live-service version of Motorsport, I do not think the studio would have been hit so hard. If they were working on a new Motorsport title, they would have likely been spared from such a heavy layoff. As of now, Turn 10 was supporting a mostly FOMO title with poor reception and very little long-term return on investment. Launching a live-service oriented racing game at full price was extremely silly to begin with.


There is a strong theme in these layoffs of going after projects that are unlikely to make a return of investment.

Everwild was announced 6 years ago, probably in development years prior, and I personally did not see massive interest in the game and who knows how close it was to actually releasing.

The initiative has been trying to put out a game for seven years with a massive initial investment, proclaimed as a AAAA studio. My guess is that Perfect Dark was still years away from release and it was decided that it would never be a return on investment. I can only guess that what we saw was an extreme vertical slice and that the game itself was far from completion.

The most puzzling one to me is the Zenimax game meant to replace ESO. It also started development seven years ago (two years before Microsoft purchased them.) and had yet to even be announced.


If Microsoft were canceling titles with no care, I would have expected a much worse bloodbath. Games like State of Decay 3, Grounded 2, Contraband, Keeper, and Blade.

As well as studios like Toys for Bob.

As of right now they said there are 40 projects in development across Xbox owned studios; that is a TON of unannounced games that we have no idea about.


I think this was a situation where Microsoft told Xbox they had to cut x number of positions and x amount of expenditures with low likelyhood of roi. If true, in my opinion, that Turn 10 was not working on a future title; it made them an easy target for layoffs.

I want to say that I'm not blaming developers here, I think this is a failure of Xbox management having such a hands-off approach with their developers and the management of the studios themselves mismanaging their studios. I think being hands-off can work well for some studios but not for others.

The terrible reality is that Forza Horizon 5, a title never launched with a exclusively live-service mindset, managed to be a way more successful live-service game than Forza Motorsport.


I think we are at a crossroads.

1) Turn 10 Studios becomes a full support studio and eventually is merged into Playground Games and the studio is shut down.

2) Turn 10 Studios will eventually recover, likely and hopefully with new studio management, and release a more traditional Forza Motorsport title.


I hope everyone that was laid off lands well and quickly finds employment after this. I hope Microsoft provided proper severance for you and I want to thank you for all the hours of fun that you helped to provide the community.
 
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Of course, what I am saying is speculative; but here I go.

If they were not going down the road of a live-service version of Motorsport, I do not think the studio would have been hit so hard. If they were working on a new Motorsport title, they would have likely been spared from such a heavy layoff. As of now, Turn 10 was supporting a mostly FOMO title with poor reception and very little long-term return on investment. Launching a live-service oriented racing game at full price was extremely silly to begin with.


There is a strong theme in these layoffs of going after projects that are unlikely to make a return of investment.

Everwild was announced 6 years ago, probably in development years prior, and I personally did not see massive interest in the game and who knows how close it was to actually releasing.

The initiative has been trying to put out a game for seven years with a massive initial investment, proclaimed as a AAAA studio. My guess is that Perfect Dark was still years away from release and it was decided that it would never be a return on investment. I can only guess that what we saw was an extreme vertical slice and that the game itself was far from completion.

The most puzzling one to me is the Zenimax game meant to replace ESO. It also started development seven years ago (two years before Microsoft purchased them.) and had yet to even be announced.


If Microsoft were canceling titles with no care, I would have expected a much worse bloodbath. Games like State of Decay 3, Grounded 2, Contraband, Keeper, and Blade.

As well as studios like Toys for Bob.

As of right now they said there are 40 projects in development across Xbox owned studios; that is a TON of unannounced games that we have no idea about.


I think this was a situation where Microsoft told Xbox they had to cut x number of positions and x amount of expenditures with low likelyhood of roi. If true, in my opinion, that Turn 10 was not working on a future title; it made them an easy target for layoffs.

I want to say that I'm not blaming developers here, I think this is a failure of Xbox management having such a hands-off approach with their developers and the management of the studios themselves mismanaging their studios. I think being hands-off can work well for some studios but not for others.

The terrible reality is that Forza Horizon 5, a title never launched with a exclusively live-service mindset, managed to be a way more successful live-service game than Forza Motorsport.


I think we are at a crossroads.

1) Turn 10 Studios becomes a full support studio and eventually is merged into Playground Games and the studio is shut down.

2) Turn 10 Studios will eventually recover, likely and hopefully with new studio management, and release a more traditional Forza Motorsport title.


I hope everyone that was laid off lands well and quickly finds employment after this. I hope Microsoft provided proper severance for you and I want to thank you for all the hours of fun that you helped to provide the community.
One of the claims I've seen come out recently is MS is ploughing full steam into pushing its AI and is using gaming as a soft target for layoffs
 
One of the claims I've seen come out recently is MS is ploughing full steam into pushing its AI and is using gaming as a soft target for layoffs
Not sure I would say they directly targeted Xbox as a soft target; the vast majority of layoffs were not related to Xbox. The last estimate I saw was Xbox layoffs account for around 300 or more of the 9000 employees laid off. Likely the biggest hit was maintaining a certain amount of profitability while increasing spending on AI. It sounds like they went after their entire company to cut jobs for AI endeavors.

I really don't care for all this AI stuff either, but I can't argue against it being what made Microsoft into a $4 trillion dollar company.
 
Of course, what I am saying is speculative; but here I go.

If they were not going down the road of a live-service version of Motorsport, I do not think the studio would have been hit so hard. If they were working on a new Motorsport title, they would have likely been spared from such a heavy layoff. As of now, Turn 10 was supporting a mostly FOMO title with poor reception and very little long-term return on investment. Launching a live-service oriented racing game at full price was extremely silly to begin with.


There is a strong theme in these layoffs of going after projects that are unlikely to make a return of investment.

Everwild was announced 6 years ago, probably in development years prior, and I personally did not see massive interest in the game and who knows how close it was to actually releasing.

The initiative has been trying to put out a game for seven years with a massive initial investment, proclaimed as a AAAA studio. My guess is that Perfect Dark was still years away from release and it was decided that it would never be a return on investment. I can only guess that what we saw was an extreme vertical slice and that the game itself was far from completion.

The most puzzling one to me is the Zenimax game meant to replace ESO. It also started development seven years ago (two years before Microsoft purchased them.) and had yet to even be announced.


If Microsoft were canceling titles with no care, I would have expected a much worse bloodbath. Games like State of Decay 3, Grounded 2, Contraband, Keeper, and Blade.

As well as studios like Toys for Bob.

As of right now they said there are 40 projects in development across Xbox owned studios; that is a TON of unannounced games that we have no idea about.


I think this was a situation where Microsoft told Xbox they had to cut x number of positions and x amount of expenditures with low likelyhood of roi. If true, in my opinion, that Turn 10 was not working on a future title; it made them an easy target for layoffs.

I want to say that I'm not blaming developers here, I think this is a failure of Xbox management having such a hands-off approach with their developers and the management of the studios themselves mismanaging their studios. I think being hands-off can work well for some studios but not for others.

The terrible reality is that Forza Horizon 5, a title never launched with a exclusively live-service mindset, managed to be a way more successful live-service game than Forza Motorsport.


I think we are at a crossroads.

1) Turn 10 Studios becomes a full support studio and eventually is merged into Playground Games and the studio is shut down.

2) Turn 10 Studios will eventually recover, likely and hopefully with new studio management, and release a more traditional Forza Motorsport title.


I hope everyone that was laid off lands well and quickly finds employment after this. I hope Microsoft provided proper severance for you and I want to thank you for all the hours of fun that you helped to provide the community.
Good post and I agree with virtually everything you say as being in line with my feelings also.

The only thing I'm not entirely convinced about is the idea that FH4 and FH5 weren't live service orientated games. Prior to the "final" update, the map only changed with monthly Forzathons (contrast this with the permanent additions in The Crew Motorfest), the additional (and very welcome) cars post release were all either Forzathon rewards or paid DLC.

if you take away the live service aspect you have the Event Lab, a few races on the map admittedly and the ultra ultra short "career mode" which took less than 10 hours to complete.

People will only realise just how "live service" FH4 and FH5 are when the servers go offline - there's not in my opinion a lot of content without them. More than Test Drive
Unlimited though :lol:

I do think FH5 is highly relevant though as its success has been part of the downfall of FM23. For example, if you want a track racer just go to Eventlab Island and choose one of squllions of tracks with the excellent handling model.

@Imari fairly (in my opinion) described the game as "mediocre" and that's the biggest issue it has had. In a world where FH5 exists, mediocre just wasn't good enough.
 
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I see so many people talking about the returning tours but not the all new career mode. Seems like T10 were always up against it no matter what, after the game's poor reception.
The new career mode is indeed great. The problem has been, it should have been there in October 2022. Single player wise, It’s one of THE main reasons for the poor reception in the first place. Although the "unpopular" (although i didnt mind it) XP thing on the cars was probably the biggest, I believe.

In the same way that GT7 is still rightly lambasted for its crap "career mode".

It does, however, now give us lots of great stuff to do in Single Player racing outside of resorting to Free Play now.
 
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The new career mode is indeed great. The problem has been, it should have been there in October 2022. It’s one of THE main reasons for the poor reception in the first place. In the same way that GT7 is still rightly lambasted for its crap "career mode".

It does, however, now give us lots of great stuff to do in Single Player racing outside of resorting to Free Play now.
Yeah, it was a huge oversight, but still must be frustrating to have something brand new mistakenly labeled as recycled content by so many. I guess they could have timed it better to avoid the confusion.
 
While I respect the game in it's current status and the people that worked in it, I submit exhibit 1 of why it's getting (deservedly?) downsized:



Does the game resembles that? No. Does the game will ever resemble that? No. And yet they claimed it was "Footage captured in-engine".

Exhibit number 2, two years later and promising a Spring 2023 launch (it didn't).



Can anyone with a rig powerful enough can confirm that the game indeed looks like that at 4K @ 60 fps?

Finally, the last trailer with the real release date (October 2023), and certainly the game didn't looked/performed like that at launch.



Constantly overpromising and underdelivering is what eventually led to the current state of things, and if Turn 10 eventually gets absorbed into Playground (or they drop them alltogether with the Forza engine and opt for Unreal or whatever), well, they had it coming.
 
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Good post and I agree with virtually everything you say as being in line with my feelings also.

The only thing I'm not entirely convinced about is the idea that FH4 and FH5 weren't live service orientated games. Prior to the "final" update, the map only changed with monthly Forzathons (contrast this with the permanent additions in The Crew Motorfest), the additional (and very welcome) cars post release were all either Forzathon rewards or paid DLC.

if you take away the live service aspect you have the Event Lab, a few races on the map admittedly and the ultra ultra short "career mode" which took less than 10 hours to complete.

People will only realise just how "live service" FH4 and FH5 are when the servers go offline - there's not in my opinion a lot of content without them. More than Test Drive
Unlimited though :lol:

I do think FH5 is highly relevant though as its success has been part of the downfall of FM23. For example, if you want a track racer just go to Eventlab Island and choose one of squllions of tracks with the excellent handling model.

@Imari fairly (in my opinion) described the game as "mediocre" and that's the biggest issue it has had. In a world where FH5 exists, mediocre just wasn't good enough.
I meant that Forza Horizon 5 was not intended to be a 10 year game.

While I respect the game in it's current status and the people that worked in it, I submit exhibit 1 of why it's getting (deservedly?) downsized:



Does the game resembles that? No. Does the game will ever resemble that? No. And yet they claimed it was "Footage captured in-engine".

Exhibit number 2, two years later and promising a Spring 2023 launch (it didn't).



Can anyone with a rig powerful enough can confirm that the game indeed looks like that at 4K @ 60 fps?

Finally, the last trailer with the real release date (October 2023), and certainly the game didn't looked/performed like that at launch.



Constantly overpromising and underdelivering is what eventually led to the current state of things, and if Turn 10 eventually gets absorbed into Playground (or they drop them alltogether with the Forza engine and opt for Unreal or whatever), well, they had it coming.

I have a RTX 4090 and it looks really close to that trailer.

Running anywhere near those settings is EXTREMELY hard on a machine. I generally play at twice the resolution of 4K (my main monitor is 32:9 7680x2160) so I generally have to run with DLSS on quality.
 
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Yea, the word of mouth of this game is abysmal. This thread is the most positive place surrounding discussing the game, which has it's positives but I think a lot of people here didn't realise just how badly the game has performed. It's a shame because the game has come a long way, but in reality the game in it's currently statet is how the game should have launched, not getting on to two years after the fact. The Motorsport brand has become a laughing stock in online discourse when I. It's heyday was lauded as a genuine Gran Turismo competitor.

I really do hope T10 doesn't dissolve and can rebuild over time to give it another shot, with better management and direction to let the game shine from the very beginning
 
Yeah those trailers made me go for an Xbox, along with it having to be able to run Flight Sim which expensive PCs struggled with probably sealed the deal.

FH5 was nice graphically but overall a bit of a bland map for me so I ended up in the last gen game that looked almost as fine. Expecting a new Horizon every other year and if Motorsport was to be a live service thing where it used to release every couple of years made me think it would obviously get major updates on the years between new Horizon titles.

The UE5 demo for the Matrix made me think there'd be loads of games like that now too.

As someone not into wizards, dagons, swords, neon exploding turn based fighting looking stuff, ghouls, anime, etc I'm generally horrified at what I've bought when I watch Xbox showcases while waiting on racing games or just anything with some basis in reality.

Unless their new system uses that quantum chip Microsoft say is now handheld I think I'm firmly out. GTA VI and an updated RDR 2 could make it worthwhile though until the new sim racing titles run nicely on it.

On the AI front, I spend too much time watching tech demos and Two Minute Papers to be impressed by many releases any more, just waiting until that future arrives, hopefully alongside better priced VR. I'm not sure if we'll need developers in a few years so see where they are coming from, just sticking to the sure hits until it arrives to make anyone any bespoke game they want with a few commands.

Looking at the way AI can currently take a photo and complete the missing parts turning things into 3d objects makes me think cars should be really easy for us to add to our own games that support mods in some of these new sim titles coming soon, maybe Forza Motorsport too?
 
I meant that Forza Horizon 5 was not intended to be a 10 year game.


I have a RTX 4090 and it looks really close to that trailer.

Running anywhere near those settings is EXTREMELY hard on a machine. I generally play at twice the resolution of 4K (my main monitor is 32:9 7680x2160) so I generally have to run with DLSS on quality.
It's good to know. With my RTX 4070 S (two to three tiers below your card) I can get good to very good visuals now at 1440p with RTGI enabled and running DLSS on balanced (and the K preset override). But that being said, why feature a graphics level that the Series X could not hope to achieve neither then nor now? It would have been a completely different scenario if the game was only developed for PC, and even then, it does not look as good as FH4 that uses the older engine and more traditional lighting model overall (no wonder then that it's a performance benchmark darling in the PC world).
 
Even before the lay offs, didn't they say that there will not be a new Forza. Instead they will just keep updating what they have? Maybe a small team can still keep updating the current game.
Thats what we are hoping but it's all up in the air at this point. We will just have to wait for some kind of confirmation or time will just pass and either something or nothing happens.
 
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Even before the lay offs, didn't they say that there will not be a new Forza. Instead they will just keep updating what they have? Maybe a small team can still keep updating the current game.
Yeah, I don't see what's the point of discussing whether we'll "get a new Forza", when the plan didn't seem to involve a new game for the foreseeable future even before the layoffs.

The question should rather be if there will still be updates to the current Forza Motorsport; and for the answer we'll have to wait and see.
 
Yeah, I don't see what's the point of discussing whether we'll "get a new Forza", when the plan didn't seem to involve a new game for the foreseeable future even before the layoffs.

The question should rather be if there will still be updates to the current Forza Motorsport; and for the answer we'll have to wait and see.
i think they'll try to get through any updates they already pre-planned, but after that, its likely game over
 
It's good to know. With my RTX 4070 S (two to three tiers below your card) I can get good to very good visuals now at 1440p with RTGI enabled and running DLSS on balanced (and the K preset override). But that being said, why feature a graphics level that the Series X could not hope to achieve neither then nor now? It would have been a completely different scenario if the game was only developed for PC, and even then, it does not look as good as FH4 that uses the older engine and more traditional lighting model overall (no wonder then that it's a performance benchmark darling in the PC world).
At the time Forza Motorsport was released it was well established that PC was the highest-end offering for Xbox games so they showed them at their best. This will continue to be a trend for Xbox and most likely Playstation as time continues and exclusive hardware starts to die out.

It might take a decade but I expect Playstation to eventually follow Microsoft to PC with day and date releases for games. The market on PC is just way too massive for them to ignore. The reality is that no matter how much people want to fight over a plastic box it eventually becomes impossible for anyone to ignore potential customers with games costing hundreds of millions of dollars to produce.

Even before the lay offs, didn't they say that there will not be a new Forza. Instead they will just keep updating what they have? Maybe a small team can still keep updating the current game.
This was established before Forza Motorsport launched.

I would say all cards are off the table at this point. I wouldn't hold your breath that this game is going to be maintained for 10 years as originally planned.
 
At the time Forza Motorsport was released it was well established that PC was the highest-end offering for Xbox games so they showed them at their best. This will continue to be a trend for Xbox and most likely Playstation as time continues and exclusive hardware starts to die out.
The PC version at launch was nowhere near the trailers. RTGI was missing for over a year, the trailer had more detailed environments than any of the released versions, also the environmental quality level was (and maybe still is) still behind series X on quality mode. The trailer was ******** I'm afraid. The game has come a long way but still doesn't match that trailer. RTGI is broken in cockpit view too.
 
The PC version at launch was nowhere near the trailers. RTGI was missing for over a year, the trailer had more detailed environments than any of the released versions, also the environmental quality level was (and maybe still is) still behind series X on quality mode. The trailer was ******** I'm afraid. The game has come a long way but still doesn't match that trailer. RTGI is broken in cockpit view too.
I never said that it matched the PC version at launch and they also said that it would not have features such as RTGI at launch. I'm not going to argue that it was right for them to show off a game with features that were not available yet to players.

I was just saying that Xbox is going to show off their games on best hardware because they are releasing day and date on the highest end PC hardware available.
 
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How long does it take to make a new track?
Depends on the track and the depth of detail gone through to recreate it. Let's say, on average, 6 months.
Or convert an existing one into a new update format, if say three or four people are working on that?
An existing track would be much faster but it still wouldn't be a simple "drag and drop" job. There's a lot of considerations when porting existing assets into a newer game because that game has newer features that everything else has to cooperate with. Let's say a hypothetical Forza 2026 implements real-time weather based on weather forecasts in real-time, relative to the geographic location of the track venue as they're happening.

Now every track, every car, and asset has to be tuned to that; we're talking texture maps for rain, snow, sleet, dirt, etc, etc. To name a few things.

Imagine they can port cars over from Horizon with a few clicks.
Unfortunately, no. For similar reasons as above.
 
Has anyone got to the American LMDh endurance series yet? If so, is it the same formula as the Global series? All races day into night into day & rain?
 
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A crumb of hope is that they did say they have systems in place that make adding tracks easier than ever, but then they said a lot of things. Not sure if any track they could realistically add (from FM7) at this point would make much of a difference to the game for me. I've already gone back to PC 2 and am looking forward to PMR. Haven't played the new FM career, so I might revisit FM at some point, but I have no bitterness towards T10, as I can't say I didn't get my money's worth.
 
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This once again highlights the fact that we all need to sit tight until we get official news. There's so many rumours circulating at the moment. They may very well be true, but there’s also a chance things are greatly exaggerated and blown out of proportion.

I am worried, but (very) cautiously optimistic for now. Seeing all the panic surrounding Forza Motorsport on a plethora of forums reminds me of this saying about pessimism:
"When you are a pessimist and the bad thing happens, you live it twice. Once when you worry about it, and the second time when it happens". Let's try and keep our spirits high until we know for sure.
 
I am worried, but (very) cautiously optimistic for now. Seeing all the panic surrounding Forza Motorsport on a plethora of forums reminds me of this saying about pessimism:
"When you are a pessimist and the bad thing happens, you live it twice. Once when you worry about it, and the second time when it happens". Let's try and keep our spirits high until we know for sure.
Oh the other hand, a pessimist is never disappointed. But I'll try to play the optimist for a second.

The game is at a point where it wasn't likely to get much better than it was even without the layoffs; it has pretty much all the features you would want from a Forza game, it runs well (at least on Xbox), and many of the current issues with the game are a product of T10's design philosophy and conscious choices rather than a lack of technical polish. The idea that they were going to support it for ten years was always laughable - in 2033 we'll likely be two hardware generations past the one the title was launched on, and Forza's not a title with the niche appeal and consequent staying power of, say, iRacing, or R3E.

It would not be outside of the realm of possibility for what's left of T10 to keep supporting the game until an eventual end-of-life with additional content and minor improvements, possibly with the aid of PGG and/or offshoring much of the asset creation process (then, weren't the 3d models for Forza already developed by a third party?). After all, as other users have pointed out, half of the studio is still more people than there have ever been at Reiza, or even at Kunos (which is also developing its own engine, and as such makes for a better comparison). Forza Motorsport remains on Gamepass, and dropping a carrot once in a while would help keep engagement numbers high, so there is a potential (small) return of (small) investment for MS.
However, we don't know what's actually left of T10. The cuts seem to be rather transversal - no single area of development was entirely gutted, but a lot of team leads have been let go. What does that mean? I'll be damned if I know.

.

On a separate note, Mike Caviezel's Linkedin says he was "recently at Turn 10 Studios, working on an unannounced AAA racing title". Now, this I find very interesting. Perhaps there was a sequel to Forza Motorsport already in the works? Was it something else entirely? Perhaps a competitor to RIDE? Or an unannounced, secretive Indycar title - which would explain why T10 was gutted all of a sudden as the Indycar videogame curse claiming yet another victim?
Or perhaps, and I'll try to be serious for a second here, T10 was cooperating closely with Playground on Forza Horizon 6, and the suits at Microsoft realized "wait a second, we already have a sound team at Playground"?
 
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