Forza physics, and media PR

Discussion in 'Forza Motorsport 4' started by SHVEDe34vsjzx90, Jan 23, 2013.

  1. SHVEDe34vsjzx90

    SHVEDe34vsjzx90

    Messages:
    32
    Turn10 needs a more aggressive public relations physics forza4 forza5

    Forza 4 Physics of Driving In fact physics fm4 gorgeous. problem of physics, fm4 that it is little advertised. In various forums, on youtube and etc. Those fanatics argue with better driving physics in fm4 in gt5 or PC simulators. But those who argue generally incompetent fanatics who know nothing about the physics of driving and realism.

    However, the man who first became interested in driving games do not know whom to ask which is better. And such a person will be guided by the opinion of fanatics.
    And so it happened, but among console racers have long formed the view that the physics of gt5 best, and better than fm4. But this opinion is very wrong, but that is the view of incompetent people shape the public opinion in general, forming the image of the game.

    I am not a fanatic fm4, but I know that in fm4 best console driving physics of all time. and physics fm4 not too much inferior to the PC simulator (Iracing) and exceeds Rfactor.A physics gt5 much inferior fm4, physics gt5 half arcade.

    But mass opinion fanatics, as well as the opinion of some "independent" review and compare the opinions of some authoritative "independent" riders like Valentino Rossi or Tiff Needell form the majority of people a false idea that gt5 is more realistic, more respectable, more seriously. But this is not true, it's just a PR

    Turn10 needs a more aggressive public relations physics forza4 forza5

    Polyphony Digital places the its logo on race cars in the 24 hours of Nurburgring, the chicane at Le Mans, and so.But turn10 simply more money to spend on independent Expert simulation game physics, comparative tests gt5 vs fm4.* write more about this in the papers, make a video about it, cause charts and graphics, photo evidence realistic physics.

    Scientific proof that physics forza4 fm5 or better than the physics of gt5, gt6. The shortcomings of physics gt5. Conduct media war

    After all, most of the players of games like gt5 and fm4, understand nothing in the realism of physics. but the driving physics for them is the pride and excellence of their game.
    This is a competition - who is steeper but incompetent fanatics need an authoritative opinion, for example to developers or riders so that they can argue that their holywarsAnd public opinion influences on game sales

    Developers of racing games vow that their game the most realistic, but as a rule they are lying, such as NFS Shift, and even developers gt5 forced to lie and exaggerate.But turn10 should be proud of physics fm4, they do not need to lie, they do not need to be modest. They need to advertise it, not limited to items "under the hood" that is read only by a few people.

    In addition to fans of the game, the competitor, which should be directed PR.There are neutral people is: PC Sims fans who interesting to watch and for gt and fm, as well as people who are not gamers.

    People who are close to motorsport who participate in amateur races, these people also need to know exactly what fm, steeper than the GT and all talk about it.
     
  2. Mike R

    Mike R

    Messages:
    23
    Location:
    United States
    It only took me about 15 min to decide Forza 4 had superior physics over GT5, I have played the GT series for over 10 years. I would not consider myself a "fanboy" of the game, I just didnt want to give Forza a chance, But since i have GT has been collecting dust!
     
  3. SHVEDe34vsjzx90

    SHVEDe34vsjzx90

    Messages:
    32
    I thought it would be like gt5 physics in Enthusia suspension and tires in fm2.But physics gt5 disappointed me.But fm4 has excellent physics, combining a good sense of the tire, and well modeled suspension.
     
  4. mikecustom

    mikecustom (Banned)

    Messages:
    210
    I wouldn't call FM4 physics ''excellent'' or ''superior'' than GT5, now that I have both games, it felt like I was playing the same game, I switched back and forth between GT and FM repeatedly and it felt the same but with less grip, if there's anything superior in FM physics is crash and collsion physics which still are way too dumbed down.
    On some cars, FM reminded me of the Shift series, with the rear end just breaking loose on every single corner (even with some FWD) and it always takes too long to do anything about oversteer, it feels sluggish.

    In GT5 (2.10) you have everything from snap oversteer to slow and progressive loss of grip, with FM it always seems to be the latter, even racing cars with racing slicks behave like this which is not very realistic, IRL these cars are planted and when they do come off, they do it all of the sudden and even spin out if the driver can't do anything about it, they don't start drifting around like in FM4.

    Anyway, they are both great games but they are not ''simulators'' and last but not least, WTH is wrong with FM's grass? If you go off track the game stops you like glue, that's just not real and I know they did that to avoid cheaters but when you have to do things like this, it really shows the kind of fanbase you have, T10 knows that and that's why they don't advertise it as a ''simulator'' you can't call it a sim with that kind of things.
     
  5. Dopplegagger

    Dopplegagger

    Messages:
    1,272
    Location:
    United States
    I don't think Turn 10 should persue a "Physics is better here" campagin because that is only a money fuled argument. Word of mouth from actual players carries way more weight than pretty advertisements and ad blitzes. Let the game's physics speak for it's self. Advertise the graphics, realism, tuning, community features, and other items that will make the casual gamer or non gaming audience curious about FM5. Entice them to try the game. Hook them with the hands on experience, and with that you'll need superior physics.
     
  6. UKMikey

    UKMikey

    Messages:
    4,757
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    There's an entire thread dedicated to the physics of both games and another on GT Planet. I don't know whether it's because I'm using a controller but my experience of Spec 2.10 was frustrating as I couldn't feel when the car was about to lose grip. Forza was a lot easier in that respect.

    Sticky grass is unfortunate but I rarely encounter it when driving on the track. I'm not sure what driving on the grass have to do with how accurate the physics are? Ditto crashes. It's the driving experience which should be paramount.
     
  7. imported_JJ72

    imported_JJ72

    Messages:
    330
    Forza's marketing direction was correct all along imo.

    Not because FM's physics is inferior, but because when you do PR, you focus your energy on the biggest differentiating factor. And for forza, that is the car culture and social thing.

    The slight difference in physics is a rather hard point to market on because it is 1. subjective. 2.only a tiny portion of fanbase can really tell the difference. and most important of all GT has already established that position for over a decade, regardless on how realistic it actually is, if enough people believe it is more realistic, the marketing department will have a hard time changing that opinion.

    For Forza 5 maybe there should be a change of focus, now that Forza is better established and is taken more seriously as a racing simulator after the success of Forza 4. It maybe indeed a good time to communicate its merit as a serious racing platform, however the campaigning is secondary, the most important thing is to make the system itself less restrictive (online setup change, custom grid order etc), allow more steering options so more people can feel the physics, and then you think about cross over with real motorsport.

    I think the bottom line is it isn't nesscary a bad thing the general public conceive Forza as a less serious simulator than GT, its more an ego thing for us core audience. If Forza's philosophy can bring a wider audience that will support the game, it is not a bad thing at all. If I want to be elitist I will just go back to the PC world. :p
     
  8. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

    Messages:
    23,223
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    To be honest I'm yet to come across a car in GT5 (even with the latest patches in place) that even comes close to showing a progressive loss of grip.
    I've also come across plenty of snap oversteer and over-correction in FM4.



    I would also have to disagree that all racing cars with slicks behave in the manner in which you have suggested, I've driven a few over the years and they range from those that will snap hard and fast into oversteer (Formula Ford and Clio V6 cup cars would be good examples) to those that will show a progressive loss of grip that's well communicated and has been easier to control that on some road cars.

    Now while its true that grip levels on slicks are of course higher than road tyres and as the forces involved are much greater. Meaning when they let go its happening much faster, that doesn't mean they all act the same, the same number of factors around the car layout and set-up exist to change the driving dynamic and balance as it does on a road car.

    A quick look at any BTCC race is enough to show that even on slicks a FWD can be set-up to oversteer (not power on but it will still happen) and be both predictable in its change of balance and be more than able to be recovered.

    Now don't get me wrong FM4 isn't perfect in this area (far from it), but its certainly a lot closer to representing the differences that exist between differing car layouts, design approaches, etc. that GT5 manages.


    By the standard definition of a simulator they both are:

    1. a person or thing that simulates.
    2. a machine for simulating certain environmental and other conditions for purposes of training or experimentation: a flight simulator.
    Source - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/simulator

    They are most certainly not at the higher end of vehicle simulation, but they are both simulators.


    Not all the grass does that, in is for the most part only in the areas of the track that get cut during on-line races. Now while I would much prefer a system of flags and penalties its reasonably effective at what it sets out to achieve in on-line races and would not stop it being a sim.
     
  9. cuco33

    cuco33

    Messages:
    1,732
    I am all for more public relations and advertising of Forza (and Gran Turismo). But OP you might not be aware that there actually is a lot of Forza branding and motorsports sponsorship. The PS/GT chicane at Le Mans was rebranded the Forza Motorsport chicane. ALMS did a sponsorship with FM4 last season, which should be interesting for this season as ALMS and Grand Am merged. The first time that GT had a kiosk at Le Mans, so did Forza, where Forza and xbox360 branding was on the main straight in 2007 (I was there). The Peugeot 908 also flipped sponsorship between xbox360 and Playstaytion. There are other examples but Gran Turismo sponsorship at race events surely is more seen and known over Forza. Also there have been professional drivers who have been used as a guide to improve physics and track details. Ironically Gunner Jeannette helped T10 with FM4 and last season raced alongside a GT Academy winner in the Deltawing.
     
  10. Mike R

    Mike R

    Messages:
    23
    Location:
    United States
    Scaff, thanks for the great input you add to these type of threads!
     
  11. justchyllan

    justchyllan

    Messages:
    531
    Location:
    United States
    I'm not sure about the PR part. I'll take some time and read what has been said later. Just to quickly add my input, I've been racing at track days in my Evo, S2000, and occasionally my dads NSX and the physics in FM just feel better and closer to my track experience. It's hard to say exactly what it is but the steering/handling physics are better IMO.
     
  12. HAL20XX

    HAL20XX

    Messages:
    1,787
    Location:
    United States
    Excellent post! I have feeling you and I work in similar industries because everything you said I deal with on a daily basis.
     
  13. imported_JJ72

    imported_JJ72

    Messages:
    330
    Yeah, Cos I do motorsport branding, or branding in general, although I am more on the creative side, there are some basic brand strategic principles that I have to comprehend.
     
  14. mikecustom

    mikecustom (Banned)

    Messages:
    210
    I'm super cautious on my inputs on the throttle, maybe that's why both games feel the same to me, of course if you push too hard, GT5 tends to make much more drama than FM, if that's what you mean I agree but at the same time FM makes you slide a lot easier, for example, FF cars get overdone weight transfer when trailbraking, almost like a 911 would do, I mean what? I'm not even locking my front tires, I'm just turning the wheel and I'm getting this out-of-nowhere oversteer and I'm not throwing the car into the corner at impossible speeds, I'm just doing what I'm supposed to do.

    Another observation, when you do come off in FM4 in a RWD car, why does it feel like a 4WD powerslide? not only feels that way but looks that way too, I mean, yeah your front tires become like an axis and the rear moves depending on your front tires if you are at full throttle and maintaining the powerslide but then, again, out of nowhere, God's hand comes and moves your entire car to the outer side without changing the angle, and instantly after that your car is going straight again.

    Is there a built-in aid i'm not aware of?

    With GT5, I gave it a go again and I was going like a drunk mad man and honestly it was harder to get the car to slide than in FM4 and I was using CM tires, I always use Comfort tires and in case you are wondering, both games are being tested with a CSR Elite wheel, (wish it was my own) and of course, all aids off including ABS but I'll end there because this isn't the thread for this.
     
  15. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

    Messages:
    23,223
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Odd because I don't find that at all, I use trail braking quite effectively with a wide range of cars in FM4 and while I can initiate oversteer from it in certain cars if I want to I wouldn't call it a dominant and persistaent trait at all.




    Both of the above were stock and trail braking was used in both videos (to the best of my memory).



    Again not a trait I recognize myself. Sorry for the heavy use of videos but its the best I can do quickly to illustrate my own findings:

    This one was put together just to see how the Morgan reacted in comparison to the real thing.


    And this just a quite oversteer (and opps) montage I put together:


    Your thoughts on the above in comparison to your own findings would be great to hear.


    What do you have steering set to?


    Going back to GT5 is a pain for me as I find the lack of progression on the tyres really hard to deal with, at least however some nice suspension changes and improvements seem to have come along with the last but one update.
     
  16. Wolfe

    Wolfe Premium

    Messages:
    12,450
    Location:
    United States
    For the record, I consider FM4 to be significantly more accurate than GT5.
    Honestly I don't think FM4 simulates enough weight transfer when entering a corner. Yeah you can tuck in the nose with a FWD car, but if you don't correct for it (or if you attempt to prolong it) you'll find that the effect doesn't actually last. It shouldn't be something to worry about.

    In a proper sim, you should be able to unsettle just about any car in a dramatic fashion by doing everything dramatically wrong. You can't shrug off everything into understeer. In FM4/Horizon, just about the only way you can provoke the car is with your right foot/finger. I think the rear-heavy and tail-happy Ruf CTR is one of the most natural-feeling RWD cars in the game, because it actually responds the way I expect a RWD to behave at the limit. It makes other RWDs feel half-numb by comparison.

    I could swear there's a oversteer assist that reduces angular momentum to help catch slides. The way you can whip a RWD car around in a low-speed, snaking burnout defies reality, especially on Simulation steering with a gamepad. It's worse than a steering issue; it's like the front wheels are getting torque.
     
  17. mikecustom

    mikecustom (Banned)

    Messages:
    210
    In the FM4 montage at exactly 49-50 seconds with the Italia at TG you can see what I was talking about. That violent movement that doesn't have any consecuences other than the car automatically straightening itself, of course there was some countersteering involved but for the most part the car does it on its own, at least in my experience and I'm running ''simulation'' steering.

    That, to me, is not realistic. IRL, that kind of violence would result in a spin but the other way around (over-correction). Look at what happened to The Stig with the CCX.

    Also, it's not something I say, it's the general opinion, that FM cars are way too tail happy.

    BTW, I don't have anything against FM nor GT, I'm starting to doubt about you now, Do you actually have GT? No offense but I think it's pretty idiotic to say ''no'' to one or the other when you have both, when you've paid for them but due to personal beliefs refuse to play one of them.

    I can switch between at least 5 times a day if I have the time, maybe even throw some Shift 2 time in there, I enjoy all of them because I've paid for them and have found things that one has and the other lacks. Like I said, this isn't the FM vs GT thread so I'm gonna stop it there and I'm gonna close with what I said earlier.

    I don't think FM4 is superior than GT in anyway because they are both too far from reality to be taken seriously, or to be called ''sims'' because my definition of ''simulator'' established by real simulators, not dictionaries, is a software that represents or simulates real life conditions in motorsport, say weather, damage, racing etiquette, qualifications, practice sessions, championships, pit strategy, accidents, etc., On that basis, Codie's F1 games are more ''sim-like'' than any other game on console but the thing is that this is a more complex topic than that because these console developers have come up with a whole new idea called ''sim-cades'' but I won't touch on that because to me and my definition they are either simulators or just games. can't have middle terms and that's why FM and GT are just games to me.


    EDIT: Ok, I've seen that you do have GT5 because I watched some of your YT videos, I came across the ''Losing a Cobra'' one too where I saw the same odd behaviour again.
     
  18. Speedster911

    Speedster911

    Messages:
    4,170
    I am super glad you posted this OP! And I also quite liked how you feel FM4 fall somewhere between Rfactor and Iracing. Now, on to the important stuff.
    I've been enjoying what the driving sim market has to offer ever since the original NFS was conceived and termed a simulator. Moving on, came GT and it's successors. I was quite sim-happy, but then Forza shows up out of nowhere.

    I'll go on record to say this: no other sim on consoles has outdone previous versions the way Forza has with each iteration. I mean you just have to acknowledge the hard work and energy the T10 guys have put into each one of their projects.

    Speaking of physics: it's a marked improvement over FM3, but there is room for improvement. It's going to be very exciting to see what FM5 has to offer.

    Mike, I've been around ever since the first GT game graced the PS1, right up to GT5. Somewhere around the time when FM2 on the 360 was released, I got a taste of it on a mate's set up, and it quite literally blew my socks off. Now, I continued to play GT4 and 5, but FM3 made me less compelled to play GT5, even though I would dive into it now and then. With the release of FM4, I would simply say the physics are quite simply better/more realistic/more true to life/in depth... however you choose to term it. It is quite simply a fact that makes many GT fans' stomachs turn! They would rarely admit it, but secretly get a whiff of it every now and then. Forums in general, or "word of mouth/general talk" will lead you to form an opinion, based on people's experiences with other games, their general mindset as a gamer, and their expectations with regard to any given genre.

    My specific verdict on FM4's physics is based on actual high speed driving. Therefore based on that, it comes eerily close to actually moving in a fast car in the real world. It is quite gratifying how the different powertrain cars feel different, and how things like suspension tuning and tire upgrades influence the characteristics of each car.

    Folks in general, who think that FM4 just doesn't cut it as a realistic driving sim on a console, should acknowledge the fact.. that it's a product.. and therefore a business for the devs; they're not going to give away everything in a single game... and it takes time for every product to mature, learn from past experiences.. and keep offering superior products in future. Take Sony and Samsung HDTV's for instance. If they wanted, they'd give you everything in a single TV. However, it's a business, and if you give away too much too soon, you tend to loose the charm or appeal a product or service has to offer.

    Coming back on topic: PD stopped innovating with the fourth GT game. T10 has continued to vow us with every single game. The pace they've progressed at, is JUST right I believe. And it is simply a taste of things to come in future. Who knows, perhaps one day, several years down the gaming line..we might start to see different T10 sims. Say, a motorbike sim, or a sim pertaining to race cars only. Or maybe road and street cars specifically. I doubt that's going to happen though, as the Forza games have always offered a wide variety, and it's about the car culture and love of cars, not just racing or physics.

    Excellent response Scaff! Well informed and calculated.. all note-worthy points!
     
  19. imported_vwpilot

    imported_vwpilot

    Messages:
    53
    I'd have to agree that FM cars oversteer way too much. I should not be able to get a VW Golf to snap into oversteer like it does in this game. Its my one main complaint with the game, I just do not find that specific characteristic of oversteer on many of the cars to be realistic.
     
  20. UKMikey

    UKMikey

    Messages:
    4,757
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Is this in comparison to GT5 or to real life?
     
  21. imported_JJ72

    imported_JJ72

    Messages:
    330
    It's really hard to compare FM4 to real cars if you are driving anything from the past decade, ESP and ABS changes driving characteristic dramatically, and if you living in the states you are almost certain you cannot turn those hidden aids off.
     
  22. saskman1950

    saskman1950

    Messages:
    608
    I'm not sure about all the oversteer/understeer stuff....but I do know this. I went back to GT5 a game I loved until I played FM4.

    I raced cars(I use a controller) at levels in GT5 that I could never master before I drove in FM4. I flew around tracks. I now find GT5 to be a lot easier driving in than FM4. That may be the appeal of the game, it is easier to drive.

    PR is the main factor with any product. Make it glitzy enough, slick enough and people will buy it. People will believe just about anything if they see it long enough.

    I know this, because I bought GT5 from seeing it on tv. I only bought FM4 because I needed a break from GT5...which has been over a year now...haha
     
  23. Speedster911

    Speedster911

    Messages:
    4,170
    On some forums, they'd complain about the cars oversteering too much, on others..they say..there's no traction in the front, and/or the cars feel like they are on ice.

    First of all, FM4 cannot be mastered if you rely on games like NFS, Dirt, Burnout or Horizon to master "real driving skills".

    Second, I believe the default deadzones that come with the game have to be fine tuned until you find the ideal sweet spot. Keeping in mind actual driving, I've found these to work the best: inside deadzones for steering and throttle/brakes - 0, outside - max. This gives you the best range of motion on a controller. Keep it on SIM, with all assists off. I'd really recommend these settings to anyone who feels the control is "glitchy". Have patience and put in lots of practice, then get back to us!

    On a wheel, make sure you have the latest FM4 title update as well as the wheel firmware update. Play around with the settings. Most wheel users usually keep the range set to 900 degs when driving road cars. And under 570 deg or even 180 deg when driving race cars.

    Cheers then! :cheers:
     
  24. mikecustom

    mikecustom (Banned)

    Messages:
    210
    Oh man, so it's like Shift 2 all over again, I spent like half a year trying to get the game to that sweet spot. I did, eventually and I enjoy that game a lot but I don't feel like doing the same thing all over again when GT5 works just fine with default settings.

    About the ''simulation'' setting, I personally find it to be glitchier than ''normal'', I've read the description for both and ''sim'' basically says that there's a steering aid involved. That doesn't make any sense, ''sim'' should have everything off.

    Anyway, I'm not getting that much trouble to enjoy the game now, thanks for your tips.
     
  25. The general concesus is sim is aimed at people with wheels and while assisted on the controller there are no assists when using a wheel.

    You can see why they still have the steering assisted on the controller, it would be impossible to control the car if moving left to right on the stick meant lock to lock in a fraction of a second......
     
  26. imported_vwpilot

    imported_vwpilot

    Messages:
    53
    Both. I think that many of the cars oversteer much too much and is not realistic when comparing to the real thing. Thus, since you do not get this same feel with GT5, GT5 is more realistic in this department.

    I cant compare cars such as the supercars because I dont have the luxury to drive those regularly, however, I have driven cars at speed such as the Audi S4, VW R32, Honda CRX and other VWs, and these cars are all notorious for their understeer and heavy push, they dont snap into oversteer like they do in the game.

    Some of it may be the controller as I think that the PS3 has a much better analog control in GT5, which may lead to the less touchy oversteer, but in FM4 it seems that too many cars just snap into oversteer mid corner, many times without any throttle changes, with even the smallest steering inputs on the controller.

    So it may be the controller more than the actual physics of the game, but the end result creates a car that doesnt seem to handle as it should in certain cases.
     
  27. mikecustom

    mikecustom (Banned)

    Messages:
    210
    This, I can feel that the rear slides slower and more progressively than in GT but that constant feeling of slowly loosing and regaining grip gets old. Like I said, cars feel tail happy but very boring and slow at the same time, oversteering in a MR lightweight lotus should be fun but in FM it feels like you are powersliding with a people carrier or a bus. What really bothers me is that this behaviour is caused by steering inputs rather than throttle inputs like you said and we are not talking about throwing th car into the corner like a NFS game, you are doing just fine and then, at mid corner without touching the gas, the car starts sliding.

    G forces in real life would be big enough at mid corner that your car would understeer if you force into the apex maintaining a constant speed and mainting a constant input on the throttle through the entire corner. The car at that point shouldn't be able to turn in even more than it can. It's like FM just completely ignores steering lock. you would have to turn your wheels almost 90 degrees from the apex of the corner to get that loss of grip, of course this is imposible but that is the only I can think of to get physics IRL to do that, it would be like having a completely broken suspension and the inner front wheel just hanging around without any connection to the car but then in a road car that would be impossible because that wheel would get stucked into the wheel arches and the car wouldn't move at all because of the friction a non-moving tire would cause. It would be possible on an open wheeler though.

    See? this just breaks laws of physics at some many levels that is just ridiculous to think that kind of behavoiur is realistic, so yeah, I totally agree with you vwpilot.
     
  28. SHVEDe34vsjzx90

    SHVEDe34vsjzx90

    Messages:
    32
    If you drive a car on the joystick, (or on the steering wheel 270 degrees) even with switched off ESP and TSC, you will have a hidden help. This will force the, hang in drift racing carwithout allowing the loss of control and crash.
    900-degree steering wheel, everything is different
     
  29. SHVEDe34vsjzx90

    SHVEDe34vsjzx90

    Messages:
    32
    I hope you're talking about a car untouched tuning, with factory settings.P.S. I like oversteer.I have tested almost all cars fm4 at Nordschleife, and recorded impressions.

    And I can say that the stabilization of the vehicle after skidding depends on how to make and set up the car. Of course, I'm talking about cars with factory settings.

    Ability to make some cars, such as the E39 M5 are configured so that they are very easy to stabilize, almost do not need to turn the steering wheel, but it is not the lack of physics, but IMHO, the dignity of the carMany cars are difficult to stabilize, especially the all-wheel drive. But it's just, character, vehicle.For example Morgan tends to be difficult for stabilization. A Ferrari 458 is very complicated in the drift
     
  30. Speedster911

    Speedster911

    Messages:
    4,170
    Precisely. There are zero assists on the wheel. A hidden assist is present on the controller that limits lock to lock wheel rotation, depending on the speed. This applies to both "normal" and "sim" steering. I think it was a good decision on T10's part, otherwise the vehicles may have behaved somewhat unrealistically on controllers. Besides, even in real life, turning the wheel beyond a certain point would be rather difficult, potentially dangerous, and would translate into more understeer than anything else.