Frustrated with tuning!

[rsergio007]

Bear with me, I'm really struggling with tuning in GT5. I'm frustrated that it takes so long and results aren't always predictable. The log analyzer is almost useless with no data for suspension travel, wheel lock, etc.
I've been reading tons of posts here but questions remain.

So I beg the experts here to answer my many questions:

- setting brake balance is there any way to figure out how each wheel is behaving, apart from just "feeling it" or watching replays?
- setting ride height is there any way to figure if the car is bottoming out, apart from just "feeling it" or watching replays?
- is the visual representation during a replay even close to reality? (e.g. I set extreme ride heights and see no visual effect during replay)
- is there any way to figure the actual weight distribution pre/post weight removals? do you relly on real world numbers, in game feeling?
- is there a quick way to retune a car based on a tyre compound change (i.e. I have a car that feels perfect with racing softs and then want to retune to racing hards)
- does any one actually have any hard evidence on the accuracy of the simulation model used in GT5 (i.e. in game tuning changes actually simulate the real world when it comes to camber, toe, aero, tyre types, etc?)
- is there any way to use external data logging/analysis applications? (for instance able to import replay files)
- do you feel/know if a given tune should be tweaked depending on if you use a wheel/controller? (e.g. since I use a controller my trajectories are a bit sloppy and accelerator/spin control exiting corners in high powered cars is a pain even with clever lsd settings)
- kind of tune related, since day one I have set ABS to 1 and never touched it again. Any opinions regarding higher settings, how does this preference interfere with the brake power set in tuning?

I think it's all for now.
I know it's a ton of questions but I've been playing GT since the series started, I'm no noob!
I just find absolutely frustrating how little I really know about this simulation model and the lack of analysis tools. And spending around 4 hours, like last night, trying to improve a car, and seeing no real results it's really despairing!

Thanks in advance!

 

[BlueShift]

- yes (use the search button)
- yes (use the search button)
- yes or no who cares : extreme mean 5 cm difference, can you see that on replays ?
- yes (use the search button)
- no unless the original tuner cared for that
- I don't know for sure. That's a videogame.
- GPS feature on irl circuits was markettised, I don't know how to activate it.
- I don't understand your question
- More ABS mean more grip, less speed, and a lsd more violent.

 

[SS_1182]

So I beg the experts here to answer my many questions:


1. setting ride height is there any way to figure if the car is bottoming out, apart from just "feeling it" or watching replays?


2. is the visual representation during a replay even close to reality? (e.g. I set extreme ride heights and see no visual effect during replay)


3. is there any way to figure the actual weight distribution pre/post weight removals? do you relly on real world numbers, in game feeling?



4. is there a quick way to retune a car based on a tyre compound change (i.e. I have a car that feels perfect with racing softs and then want to retune to racing hards)



5. does any one actually have any hard evidence on the accuracy of the simulation model used in GT5 (i.e. in game tuning changes actually simulate the real world when it comes to camber, toe, aero, tyre types, etc?)



6. do you feel/know if a given tune should be tweaked depending on if you use a wheel/controller? (e.g. since I use a controller my trajectories are a bit sloppy and accelerator/spin control exiting corners in high powered cars is a pain even with clever lsd settings)



7. kind of tune related, since day one I have set ABS to 1 and never touched it again. Any opinions regarding higher settings, how does this preference interfere with the brake power set in tuning?

1. I have never seen a car bottom out on GT5 other than in the corkscrew at Laguna Seca, and I have tried to make them bottom out. I set ride height based on how low I can go without inhibiting my suspension. I set my spring rates first, then ride height comes later.


2.I think it takes time to get used to seeing how it looks. I used to feel the same way, but I can see differences now. I can also see differences in height when I change the height and go to my garage and bring up the info for the car where it's rotating, etc.


3. Yes, this is where the different camera views come into play for me. The very first view, (which is the front bumper?) really gives you a strong sense of the distribution of weight in the car. However, I find that it usually only goes as far as, "does this car lunge forward under braking/deceleration or not?" This is one of the first things I check, and it affects how I will bias my spring rates.


4. No, but some people tune their cars for racing hard or sports soft tires and just add racing softs later. I tune for racing softs and just deal with the tire changes through more conscientious driving. I very rarely have to enter events which require anything other than racing softs, and when I have done so there was never an issue with handling for me anyway.


5. You need to be more specific with this question.



6. Unfortunately for you, I believe that using a wheel will give you far better tuning results simply because Force Feedback reacts to soft vs. hard
suspensions and you can also corner so much smoother which gives you a much better idea of how well your suspension setup is working or not working.



7. Can't comment in depth here. I always use ABS 1, but I can tell you that I think ABS slows you down all around. I read up on the NASCAR event and everybody suggested turning off ABS for the event. I struggled with the race briefly but when I turned ABS off I golded it instantly. It affects the car every time you are off the accelerator I believe.

 

[66'Roadster]

- More ABS mean more grip, less speed, and a lsd more violent.

Can you explain how high ABS effects overall speed?

 

[VTiRoj]

7. Can't comment in depth here. I always use ABS 1, but I can tell you that I think ABS slows you down all around. I read up on the NASCAR event and everybody suggested turning off ABS for the event. I struggled with the race briefly but when I turned ABS off I golded it instantly. It affects the car every time you are off the accelerator I believe.

Not 100% correct. Turning ABS off in NASCAR events makes you faster because it shuts off the ASM, which otherwise couldn't be turned off. Turning off ASM means higher cornering speeds, which is needed to win NASCAR events.

 

[SS_1182]

Not 100% correct. Turning ABS off in NASCAR events makes you faster because it shuts off the ASM, which otherwise couldn't be turned off. Turning off ASM means higher cornering speeds, which is needed to win NASCAR events.

Ah, I see.

 

[BlueShift]

Can you explain how high ABS effects overall speed?

No, because there's no 1000m tracks in GT5.

LSD brakes kill your speed. With more ABS it's killing a little more your speed I guess.

 

[p-coletray]

I'm a noob tuner also. It seems like if you think about the physical properties of the car and how it can be manipulated by tuning you can get a decent start.

Take the settings back to default if its getting worse. Also TAKE NOTES when you improve. Nothing worse than not remembering a good setting that you can't find again.

The initial test drive of the car tells you alot and so does thinking about these questions: is it FR, FF, 4WD? heavy car, light car, top heavy, motor placement, axle and tranny posiion(i.e. where is the weight?) back wheels feel slippery, oversteer, understeer, brakes too hard in the front, looses control while turning or braking, and most importantly judge based on lap times on the same course for awhile. I think its better to work on one problem at a time like braking, once it feels good, do cornering, then braking while cornering.

I don't wory about the scientific books too much, try instinct. Tune the car with whatever tires/upgrades you want to use.

 

[Motor City Hami]

In my opinion, you are way overthinking things. Find my garage, Motor City Tunes and see if my method helps get you started in the right direction. Then come back and post your fine tune questions to the tuning experts.

 

[nomis3613]

Hi, all excellent questions! I'm looking into a lot of these things as I migrate my GT4 tuning knowledge to GT5.

- is there any way to figure the actual weight distribution pre/post weight removals? do you relly on real world numbers, in game feeling?

As far as I know, there is no way to work this out. I'd just assume the f/r distribution didn't change with the mods.

- does any one actually have any hard evidence on the accuracy of the simulation model used in GT5 (i.e. in game tuning changes actually simulate the real world when it comes to camber, toe, aero, tyre types, etc?)

On a very general level, I read a thread here recently saying that the laptime for a Miata in GT5 was about the same as he got IRL in his own Miata. Otherwise GT5 is a black box. liveforspeed is a PC sim which has far more tuning geekery, maybe check that out.

- do you feel/know if a given tune should be tweaked depending on if you use a wheel/controller? (e.g. since I use a controller my trajectories are a bit sloppy and accelerator/spin control exiting corners in high powered cars is a pain even with clever lsd settings)

Some people who use DS3 controllers find that tunes made using a wheel are too twitchy and hard to control. This is because you tend to wind on lock in greater amounts and faster using the DS3. I also suspect that wheel users would tune brakes (ABS and balance) and LSD a lot closer to the edge because they have more precise control.

And spending around 4 hours, like last night, trying to improve a car, and seeing no real results it's really despairing!

Here are my "if all else fails" tips:
- only change one setting at a time
- think harder about the problem. Eg move from "the car understeers" to "the car understeers exiting corners under throttle", this will then focus your attention to LSD accel and initial
- don't be afraid to break the rules (eg a stiffer rear can actually reduce understeer sometimes)

 

[NMRacing]

- setting brake balance is there any way to figure out how each wheel is behaving, apart from just "feeling it" or watching replays?

Brake testing should be done post suspension mods. Ride height, spring stiffness and damper stiffness all have the greatest effect on braking.

A quick test is to go to cape ring,turn off ABS. Accelerate up to the second bridge just after the start finish line and brake hard. Do the front brakes lock up hard? if yes lower front brake setting by one. If no increase front brake setting by one. same applies for the rear brakes.

- setting ride height is there any way to figure if the car is bottoming out, apart from just "feeling it" or watching replays?

No but it is pretty easy to tell if the ride height is to low. get a good general setup at the lowest setting. Now increase the ride height in groups of 2mm, is it faster or slower? slower drop by 1 faster increase by 2.

Keep in mind that road cars generally have about 130mm of ground clearance, so it is fully possible to go to 105 (-25) and not be bottoming out. Race cars tend to be around 80mm of clearance.

- is there any way to figure the actual weight distribution pre/post weight removals? do you relly on real world numbers, in game feeling?

I honestly dont think the weight reduction affects the % of weight distribution, it simply removes weight evenly from the vehicle.

- do you feel/know if a given tune should be tweaked depending on if you use a wheel/controller? (e.g. since I use a controller my trajectories are a bit sloppy and accelerator/spin control exiting corners in high powered cars is a pain even with clever lsd settings)

This is part of the reason why tuning a car is such a personal preference. Two people will very rarely have the exact same driving style, how you tune is based on what you feel

- kind of tune related, since day one I have set ABS to 1 and never touched it again. Any opinions regarding higher settings, how does this preference interfere with the brake power set in tuning?

the higher the ABS, the longer the braking distance will be, you actually dont want ABS to kick in, it means a wheel has locked and thats bad for handling.

 

[Z1-AV69]

As I understand the OP, he knows how to feel things etc., but he doesn't trust this "just feeling".

I'm somewhat frustrated with tuning too. Different setups have great impact on how the car feels, but I cannot see it having a big effect on the possible laptimes. The other day I compared SS_1182's setup for the Peugeot 908 (see: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=163393 ) to what I had used for LeMans 24h on Nurburgring GP/D (the track SS_1182's setup was made for). My LeMans setup is totally different. It has original ride height and about half the values on dampers and rollbars, totally different LSD settings too. Obviously both setups felt very different. They needed slightly different lines trough the corners too. But the laptimes where so close together in the end that I would account any differences on the driver or simple luck.

Or more generally speaking: You can take a setup made for a very bumpy track with lots of suspension travel etc. to an almost flat track (where a lower, stiffer setup should work better) and do the same laptimes. As it seems only the grip from different tires does really matter.

Another test I had done was my 908 setup at Monza, first with original ride height, then with lowest possible, all else equal. There was not the slightest difference in possible laptimes (and not in breaking points etc. too), lowering the car made it only more difficult to drive (I use a ds3, ABS=1 all else off).

So I tend to believe, suspension setups are more about convenience than about speed. A good setup can make it easier to reach the best possible laptimes, but it doesn't really change what is possible, or how fast you really can go. I remember this being different in GT4.

As a tuner, the problem is you get more practice while working on a setup. How do you know it's the setup making you faster and not only practice and better driving? I tend to get fooled at this point.

Has anyone of the tuners any hard data proving me wrong?

 

[Slurm]

I can't really answer all your questions, but I guess you do just need a feel for it. Tuning cars is a skill, and knowing what they need to be better is the first step. A lot of it is subjective, but yes I've found it fairly easy to tweak cars' handling in a predictable way. What car were you tuning and what exactly did you try to do to it? Maybe people here can help you adjust it...

 

[Sohvakettu]

The lack of relevant information from the game (for example accurate tyre temperatures) has stopped me from trying different setups in the game.

The only things to do i guess is stay on the basics. First try to achieve a consistent laptimes on the given test circuit with untuned car and then try to make small changes on one setting at a time. Too bad that checking the tyre temperatures for camber and tyre pressure would be the actual basics...

 

[rsergio007]

Well, thanks for all the answers after my long frustrated rant!

Motor City Hami, your advice was way cool. Indeed I found the LSD was impacting a lot on the overall changes I was making. And since I was tuning race cars, all fitted with LSD, easing on the settings was very helpful.

Nevertheless, I still feel tuning in GT5 is quite time consuming and sometimes frustrating. I remember tuning cars in the Gran Prix PC series, where the data log was so good, and also in Liveforspeed, with a completely open simulation engine where you could see in real time the forces affecting car balance and could use external analysis tools. That was a much more enjoyable tuning experience!

Anyway, GT5 is an awesome game and I guess I have to invest plenty of time to get a good tune out of a car, even if results are marginal in terms of lap times.
I tried one of the tunes posted in the Tuning Garage section (based on feedback from people saying "hey great tune, thanks"), with some very substantial changes, expecting to be several seconds quicker than with the stock tune and incredibly I was doing about the same lap times. And I can't even say the car was easier to handle! Oh well.

 

[66'Roadster]

I kinda love tuning for handling but am finding it a bit confusimg at times-keep getting oversteer/ understeer correction mixed up. And in the psp version its harder as theres limited controls and try as I might I cant get tge Alfa GTA to not understeer! It will not corner properly, yet its fine in GT5.