Fuel Consumption On Slightly Modified Cars

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I was arguing with someone on another forum about the change in fuel consumption on slightly modified cars.

The modification includes chips, spark plugs, tires, etc.

I said that with the same driving style, the fuel economy would go down slightly, and he was certain that it would go up.

Who is right?

(P.S) The guy also said 50:50 weight distribution on a mid-engined car is DIFFERENT from AND INFERIOR to the 50:50 weight distribution on a front-engined car. Go figure.
 
Well it really depends on the mods. If the chip is for performance then yes economy will go down. If the tires are the same size the economy will stay the same, if they are bigger it will go down. Spark plugs will have a minimal effect if any.

However mods like intake, exhaust, any internals, fuel injectors and so on are going to have a negitive effect on the cars economy. There are a few cars out there that actually see a slight mpg increase from a few mods but there arent' many.

A general rule of thumb is if you are adding hp, you are losing fuel economy.
 
Like IMADreamer said 👍

On many cars often freeing up the intake and exhaust will have a positive effect on fuel economy but that only depends on how the car is driven, pretty much everyone that adds a cold air intake and exhaust drives the car harder while producing more power and uses much more fuel.
 
False. If you think about it, when you get your car dyno tuned you generally lean out the A/F ratio because the car will run a bit rich stock for safety. This especially applies to cars with a few modifications.

Exhaust modifications will increase economy. The engine can breathe better and it can now do less work to produce the same power. I know this for a fact because I installed new cats on my car and my mileage increased by an average of three miles per gallon on the highway. I recently installed a new exhaust (very, VERY free flowing) but I haven't driven on the highway yet to tell you my new economy figures.

This scenario is oversimplified, but I'm going to put it out there to try to explain something. If a car produces 200lb-ft of torque at 3000rpm at 100% throttle, let's say it makes 100lb-ft of torque at 50% throttle at the same rpm (not quite accurate, but you get the idea). Say a generic car needs 50lb-ft of torque to keep it moving in top gear at 3000rpm, let's say 65mph. This would mean, in my simple model, that you need 25% throttle to keep the car going along a flat highway at 65mph in top gear. Cool. Let's say you do a few things to the engine and now you have a car that makes 230lb-ft of torque at the same rpm. Now, to keep the car moving and to produce 50lb-ft in my simple model, you only need 22% throttle to keep the car going, a 3% reduction.

Obviously this model doesn't quite work that way in the real world, but I hope you get the idea.

Many modifications will decrease economy, yes. If you have a car that processes more air, and the air/fuel ratio remains the same, you use more fuel because the air increases, so the fuel must increase. A lot of the time, however, this is not the case. Sometimes putting lots of exhaust mods on your car will actually lean it out too much, because the air being processed is increasing but the fuel is not. For example, it's not recommended to install headers and test pipes on a Z without a tune because it will lean it out too much.

Forced induction will send your economy out the window.

The thing that's detrimental to getting better fuel economy with mods is YOU. Drivers (and I'm guilty of this, but at least I admit it) drive their cars harder when they have more power to experience it and to 'test their mods out.' Because you're driving harder, you're getting less economy. If you drove it the same way you did before, you'd see an increase in economy (in some cases).

In short, it all depends on which mods you're doing and, most importantly, how you drive the car.
 
Most small upgrades like exhaust, plugs, air cleaner, and some chips will INCREASE gas mileage. Its the other upgrades that will decrease your gas mileage.
 
iceburns288
For example, it's not recommended to install headers and test pipes on a Z without a tune because it will lean it out too much.

Z's standard engine management can't control correct a/f ratio just because high flow exhaust upgrades? Thats too bad.
 
Errh which Z? First I'd heard of that.... ??? Seem to me it's impossible to lean out any MAF-equipped car by using headers and a test pipe as the flow and horsepower gains will still fall within the parameters covered by the stock fuel maps.

Otherwise, Nissan wouldn't be selling Nismo exhausts for the Z, now would they?

Most everyone else is right. Small breathing and exhaust mods, more efficient plugs and ECU tuning free up horsepower that's lost by the engine to emissions, noise and reliability compromises. Thus, you consume the same amount of gas for more power, thus, you can use less throttle to get up to speed.

With the same driving style, though... that would depend on what style that is. If you shift religiously at 2000rpm, with a slightly modified engine, you'll get better economy. If you redline it, it'll drink gas much much faster.

It's big ones like turbos, superchargers and high-compression or high-flow naturally-aspirated tunes that kill your economy... but a turbo's negative effects on economy can be sidestepped by not driving on boost... of course, the driving itself would suck... :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
niky
Errh which Z? First I'd heard of that.... ??? Seem to me it's impossible to lean out any MAF-equipped car by using headers and a test pipe as the flow and horsepower gains will still fall within the parameters covered by the stock fuel maps.

Otherwise, Nissan wouldn't be selling Nismo exhausts for the Z, now would they?

Most everyone else is right. Small breathing and exhaust mods, more efficient plugs and ECU tuning free up horsepower that's lost by the engine to emissions, noise and reliability compromises. Thus, you consume the same amount of gas for more power, thus, you can use less throttle to get up to speed.

With the same driving style, though... that would depend on what style that is. If you shift religiously at 2000rpm, with a slightly modified engine, you'll get better economy. If you redline it, it'll drink gas much much faster.

It's big ones like turbos, superchargers and high-compression or high-flow naturally-aspirated tunes that kill your economy... but a turbo's negative effects on economy can be sidestepped by not driving on boost... of course, the driving itself would suck... :lol: :lol: :lol:


They are just selling a catback aren't they and not the whole exhaust system? A catback is nothing more then a noise maker in most cases. All the important exhaust componets are before the muffler. If it is an entire exhaust system I am sure that it is somehow worked out to allow the same amount of back pressure so that the ECU reads the same.

I have heard lots of people say intake and exhaust are not good on Zs and actually result in a loss of hp.
 
Thanks for all your inputs!

Iceburn said that exaust modification help the engine to breathe better, I agree. However, I am under the impression that exaust modification INCREASE power by letting more air out and thus more air in. More air need the accomadation of more gas, and therefore, more fuel consumption. Correct me if I'm wrong; that's why I'm here.

Most chips advertise themselves as "power-up!", and therefore I assume that not very many chips are designed to increase fuel economy.

P.S. If what everyone's saying is true, then who can explain why 2005 Toyota Celica base model has better fuel economy than GT-S?
 
NSX-R
(P.S) The guy also said 50:50 weight distribution on a mid-engined car is DIFFERENT from AND INFERIOR to the 50:50 weight distribution on a front-engined car. Go figure.

It depends on a lot of things, but he's both right and wrong. I think he may have been comparing front-engined cars with 50:50 weight distribution to mid-engined cars in general. For example, BMW stands firmly by the front-engined, rear-drive, 50:50 weighted layout. It works great. The Porsche Boxster is mid-engined & rear-drive, but has a ~60:40 weight distribution. It works great, too. Which is better? It depends on what you want from a car, how you drive, and -- mostly -- your ability with each layout.

There are very few mid-engined cars with 50:50 weight distribution. This is because most drive the rear wheels, meaning the entire drivetrain is behind the driver, kind of like a front-wheel drive car turned 180 degrees. This results in a rear-biased weight distribution, usually 40:60, or at least 45:55. This is actually pretty good (NSX, Elise, Boxster), and can result in a predictably handling car.

However, to really acheive 50:50 weight distribution in a mid-engined car, the engine would either have to be right near the center of the wheelbase, or be driving the front wheels (like a conventional rear-drive car turned 180 degrees). That doesn't happen, nor should it. It's silly. The correct wheels are right below the engine -- just drive them! ;)

But as far as the imaginary mid-engined car with 50:50 weight distribution, it should theoretically handle similarly to a front-engined 50:50 car. Assuming the suspension, body, and everything else is the same. What does make a big difference is where the masses lie relative to the center of the car. A car may have 50:50 distribution, but if the primary masses (engine, gearbox, differential) are at or beyond the wheelbase, then the polar moment becomes bigger.

"Polar moment", in simplistic terms, is how resistant an object is to rotation. The bigger the polar moment, the more force it will take to rotate the car, but when it does, it will be harder to control. This why Audi's usually understeer, and old 911's oversteer (a lot). A small polar moment means it is easier to rotate the car, but it's more progressive and easier to control (NSX, Boxster).

http://www.siu.edu/~ritzel/courses/302s/vehicle/vehicledynamics.htm

^ Just in case I can't explain my way out of a paper bag.

This brings us back to the FR/MR discussion. If the FR car has acheived 50:50, it is generally assumed that it will have a high polar moment (engine in front of the dashboard, differential directly on the rear axle) leaving the car handling like a dumbbell (not stupid, it's just got the weights at the outer ends).

The MR 50:50 car, like so many other MR cars, will more than likely have it's engine sitting between the axles, meaning most of it's mass is central (like a spinning top), greatly improving the handling.

In order to make both work identically, both would have to have the wheelbase of an S-class, where both occupants & mechanicals can comfortably sit inside the wheelbase. This, of course, creates many other handling problems (try Jay Leno's Tank Car in GT4 to get an idea).

So, uh, I guess your friend's wrong. 50:50 MR cars don't exist, outside of F1 and LM. :p

NSX-R
P.S. If what everyone's saying is true, then who can explain why 2005 Toyota Celica base model has better fuel economy than GT-S?

The Celica GT is putting out 140HP, and the GT-S is putting out 180HP. That 40HP difference is not due just to better intake & exhaust systems. There's different camshaft/valve tuning, different ECU's, and a different fuel system. The GT-S engine not only can pull in (and spit out) more air, but has more fuel dumped into the cylinders as well. Not a lot, but enough to show a difference in city driving.
 
IMADreamer
They are just selling a catback aren't they and not the whole exhaust system? A catback is nothing more then a noise maker in most cases. All the important exhaust componets are before the muffler. If it is an entire exhaust system I am sure that it is somehow worked out to allow the same amount of back pressure so that the ECU reads the same.

I have heard lots of people say intake and exhaust are not good on Zs and actually result in a loss of hp.

That much is true. I've heard a lot of complaining by aftermarket vendors on how good the Z's stock system is... so good to the point that finding any gains from the engine is extremely difficult.

BUT: I have never heard of any modern MAF equipped engine being damaged by headers and test pipe. Stock maps are tuned rich... and they get even richer if they detect more air coming in, as a precaution to prevent lean-running damage. No way can you lean out a stock engine with just a couple of bits of pipe.

And if aftermarket exhausts result in a net loss of horsepower, that means they're not flowing much different from stock.
 
Response to harrytuttle:

We were arguing more about theories than cars: Suppose a chassis that can hold the engine both in front and back of the cockpit, and still achieve a 50/50 weight distribution in both cases, would they handle differently? If identical weight were put on all four wheels, doesn't matter what matter they are (ballast, engine or even lead), it still would still achieve an ideal weight distribution. Provided that the mid-ship and front-engined car weighs the same, there should be no difference in how weight is transfered during lateral acceleration.

As for the Celica, these modifications done on the GT-S are similar, if not identical to what I refered as "slightly modified". ECU(chip), exhaust and intake, new valves, new sparks, new fuel injectors...

Sorry if I didn't make myself as clear as I should have... Again, correct me if I'm wrong, I'm here to learn.

Thanks to everyone again, especially iceburns288 and harrytuttle for your detailed and meaningful explaination!
 
remember a car with 50/ 50 weight distribution could also have the mass of the engine lying over the front axle and the weight of the transaxle over the rear axle.

just coz its 50/ 50 doenst mean that the weight is centralised.
 
The way I see it, if there is an equality of weight over both front and back axles, there shouldn't be any problems with handling. Understeer wouldn't occur often because the back would be stepping out a bit, and oversteer wouldn't occur often because the the weight on the front keeps the nose pointed in the right direction.
 
neanderthal
remember a car with 50/ 50 weight distribution could also have the mass of the engine lying over the front axle and the weight of the transaxle over the rear axle.

just coz its 50/ 50 doenst mean that the weight is centralised.

That was covered in the post: front-engined, rear-drive, just like BMW or Infiniti's front-mid-engined layout, resulting in a 50:50 distribution.

When I talked about "centralizing" the masses, I referred to a mid-engined, rear-drive layout. Having so much mass towards the back end of the car (engine, gearbox, differential) where it can be behind the occupants, it must move towards the center of the car since there is nothing on the front side of the occupants to counterbalance the chassis (at least, there's not enough).

NSX-R
The way I see it, if there is an equality of weight over both front and back axles, there shouldn't be any problems with handling. Understeer wouldn't occur often because the back would be stepping out a bit, and oversteer wouldn't occur often because the the weight on the front keeps the nose pointed in the right direction.

Theoretically, that's true, but F1 and LM has moved on to mid-engined for a reason. ;) Well, it's a lot of reasons, but balance is one. The mid-engined layout allows for that reduced polar moment, allowing for more predictable handling at the limits of adhesion, something a racecar is at quite often.

Having the engine directly above or next to your driven wheels can give you a more compact power-/drivetrain compartment. If you can create a compact package of your mechanical components, that usually results in less total weight (no long driveshaft running under the passenger compartment, etc.), and can sometimes lead to better use of space, assuming passenger space isn't a priority.

Now that you have this compact, lightweight mechanical cluster, move that cluster to the optimal point on the chassis -- with all your accessories installed like fuel & coolant -- where the weight distribution hits 50:50. Now you have the perfect driving experience (or so some would say).

Oversteer and understeer can be caused by more than just weight balance, but I guess we'll leave all that out of the equation since we're really just comparing chassis layouts. All of this "on limit" stuff is moot, since I think we're talking about road cars. The way the car feels on everday, spirited driving is all that matters. For that, the discussion is heated: FR, MR, RR are each considered "the best", depending on what your preferred badge is.
 
But... say you go from an EGR inflicted smog era 305 with a 2 barrel, to no EGR, 4 barrel intake and carb, headers, and a cam?

It got 16 maybe before, wouldn't it get at least 18 or 20 because it breathes more freely and cleaner?
 
Reply to harrytuttle:

I agree with everything you said. What I meant was that 50/50 weight distribution is ideal no matter where the engine is.

On topic:

Doesn't RSX Type-S output 210 horsepower stock? Either way it's impressive. Mind listing the mods?
 
NSX-R
Reply to harrytuttle:

I agree with everything you said. What I meant was that 50/50 weight distribution is ideal no matter where the engine is.

I know what you meant, but I didn't explain it well (too much blahblahblah in the way).

A 50:50 distribution is the same for MR or FR in just about every situation, except total on-limit racing, where every little bit counts. On the road, you'll never notice the difference...I hope.
 
High-Test
But... say you go from an EGR inflicted smog era 305 with a 2 barrel, to no EGR, 4 barrel intake and carb, headers, and a cam?

It got 16 maybe before, wouldn't it get at least 18 or 20 because it breathes more freely and cleaner?

It really depends on your new cam and carby

The cam you got isnt optimised for fuel economy but it wasn't too extreme (from memory)

it depends on which carb your usinAs for the carb g, whats the primary jet sizes and what is the primary venturi sizes. Secondarys doesn't matter as you're not worried about fuel economy when you open them up. :lol:

If it is a standard Quadrajet then it shouldn't be too bad, but really its just guessing until you drive it. :)
 
harrytuttle
I know what you meant, but I didn't explain it well (too much blahblahblah in the way).

A 50:50 distribution is the same for MR or FR in just about every situation, except total on-limit racing, where every little bit counts. On the road, you'll never notice the difference...I hope.

And even THEN the difference shouldn't be worlds apart.
 
NSX-R
Doesn't RSX Type-S output 210 horsepower stock? Either way it's impressive. Mind listing the mods?

180whp somewhat equals 210bhp.

At 300hp, I'd expect an RSX to get 24-25 mpg... but I guess 30+ is possible, since in a typical naturally aspirated Honda tune, you're still not making anything below 4000rpm. Less hp at low engine speeds = better economy.
 
Like I said, it's not. But find me a winning F1 car that's FR less than 35 years old, and I'll show you a 3-dollar bill.

are F1 cars 50-50?

IF they are: the reason they use MR is because it's lighter than FR

50-50 is the same either way
the only things that can change it are how far the weight is located on each side of the split.
Example: ------------------------------------------
^1200lbs ^200lbs ^line ^1300lbs^100lbs
even though the weight is 50/50, the weight on the end will have greater pull, and more effect. it's like picking up a 20ft pole that weighs 5 pounds, gripping the middle. Easy. now hold it from the end.

FR and RR should be about the same, if 50/50 but MR has it's weight closer to the middle. (so you can pick it up easier:) )


And yes, intake, exhaust, ignition, will all increase economy.
some chips will, most won't.
the only way you will decrease fuel economy, is by adding more fuel, which most chips do, and bigger carbs do, fuel injectors, etc.
You can raise your compression, change your cams, boost it, anything. it will not hurt fuel economy unless the computer/fuel system is dumping more gas in to make the same amount of power.
 
My car must be a factory freak then, because I am pushing about 6 pounds of boost over stock and I still get 29+ MPG.
 
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