Future of rallying in GT7

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TumeK5

TumeK5

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So, with the Suzuki Escudo Pikes Peak officially teased, it makes me wonder: does it actually belong on any of the few dirt tracks we have so far? Er...not really. Think back to GT2: just about every single dirt course was only slightly unmatching with the humongous spoilered beast. The worst ones were the likes of Green Forest and Tahiti Maze, mostly because of the sheer amounts of successive, large crests in the former, and the endless hairpins on the latter, both courses lacking straights as well. Fisherman's Ranch is a combination of these two tracks in my opinion. While Sardegna Windmills has fast sections, it doesn't have even nearly as many long turns and straights as Smokey Mountain North did. But if I had to pick one dirt course that Escudo was decent to drive on, it was Smokey Mountain North.

The lack of rally courses along with Escudo making an appearance makes me think new dirt tracks are on the way. And they have to be. We only have three dirt tracks, and a plethora of rally cars, old and new. I'm crossing my fingers and clenching my eyes closed that Pikes Peak would happen one day. Not only would this provide Escudo its homeland, but also a dirt stage, rather than course.

They also need to add more varying dirt courses, the three we have each kinda resemble each other. Lots of hairpins, tight corners, with a hint of fast sections. Who knows, maybe they will add some classics back. I personally enjoyed Grand Canyon from GT4, but unfortunately it resembles Fisherman's Ranch way too much, so they need to bring something less twisty and undulating. How about...the dirt courses on El Capitan? These courses are fast and flowing, and have basic, beginner-friendly layouts. The ones in GT7 are all quite technical, so it wouldn't hurt to have more humble dirt roads. Swiss Alps was also a fine combination of technical and fast sections, and two memorable crests.

Lastly, I wanna emphasize that I'm not defending rally in Gran Turismo by any means. It was always a tongue-in-cheek part of the franchise, a side feature, if you will. Never really fully fleshed out, but circuit racing was obviously always the main focus. After all, rally didn't debut until GT2, but in that game rally was quite passionately realized, with all the different courses and rally cars. But in GT7 it's painfully apparent that it's only a sample. More will have to be on the way.
 
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pedrocor
Rally in GT is just a pain, a excruciating one...
Even for PD must be hard just find ways to make it worst than before, every single title.
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Agreed. Rallying is not fun, IMO. It's a chore. I avoid it completely. Didn't do the "windmill" grinding, not doing the CEs, not doing rally dailys, etc. I don't like it one bit, especially when any jump can just send your car flying into the shadow realm and negate your race for no reason.

If you like it, cool. I am glad you have fun with it. For me, I'd delete it from my SSD if I could.

If you love the Escudo (obviously it has a cult following) I am glad you're glad it's showing up. For me, I couldn't care less. Another smoke & mirror show to me.
 
PD seems to add cars at their convenience. After all, we have 2 GC Impreza coupés, one of which is the 22B that completely overshadows the other. No sedans, no wagons, no GDs, no hatchbacks, etc.. We have a BRZ specifically set up to drift, but drift physics are ten times more painful than rally physics IMO. What gets added has seemingly no correlation to what would be useful in the game, or would make sense to have.

I'm super excited to have a super premium Escudo after all these years. I don't expect Pikes Peak to come along with it, I don't expect it to be useful in career mode. In fact, I hope they don't waste the time and resources trying to resuscitate the dead horse that is the rallying in this game. PD has never ever come close to creating a half decent rally experience in their 25 year history, and there are bigger, more pressing issues with GT7 that urgently need fixing IMO.
 
TumeK5
I'm crossing my fingers and clenching my eyes closed that Pikes Peak would happen one day. Not only would this provide Escudo its homeland, but also a dirt stage, rather than course.
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Pikes Peak isn't dirt, hasn't been for over a decade.
 
For what it's worth, I found the rally Circuit Experiences strangely captivating. The frustrating, but in hindsight extremely rewarding quest for the elusive Golds kept me entertained (maybe? I'm still not sure) for several hours.

I also had a blast on the few attempts I had at Daily Race A last week. Even though rallying should never be like that IRL, by a long shot.

Having said all that, it's not a patch on the focus of the 'main game'
 
Current Pikes Peak cars are tarmac specials. More suited to, well, Pikes Peak, and the Goodwood Hillclimb.

I very much hope Goodwood returns. As the nature of the course means a wide variety of cars can set competitive times. Plus, it would be great for benchmarking.
 
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The last time the Escudo was in Gran Turismo, I didn't own a wheel and pedals. I'm looking forward to seeing what driving this beast will be like with my G29. Hopefully there will be a really cool cockpit view. Nurburgring, here we come. I hope it's terrifying.

And yes, I'd like to see all of the rally tracks from the past appear someday. Getting rally correct isn't easy. I have literally hundreds of hours of seat time in the Codemasters offerings, which is pretty much the modern gold standard for rally games depending on who you're talking to, and it isn't perfect either.
 
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GT has never been good at rally, it's just a side gimmick.

Just imagine if they added real rally tracks though.

Perhaps they haven't done it yet because it's harder to get permissions for laser scanning public roads?

Edit: By "rally tracks", I actually mean "rally stages". Doh!
 
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They need to just stop wasting time on rallying, It’s terrible compared to dirt rally or wrc. Putting real rally stages is even more of a waste of time. The lack of tv coverage and the distance there over means the only people who know the stages are the co drivers
 
I think if it's just kept at a niche, and nothing more, it's fine.

Rally was never the focus of Granturismo anyways, and if they kept all dirt events one on one's, that'd be enough.
 
It's just wasted development time. It's never been good, it will never be as good as the dedicated rally games. It's always just been something that you did because it was there. All of these GrB and real world rally cars, rally tracks, could've been better spent on more circuit/tarmac content.

Perfect the primary part of the game before you start trying to do extra things.
 
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Thought I might as well reply to this now that we got our first mixed surface race.

It's definitely interesting when you've got little to no grip on tarmac. I hope they add a high-speed rallycross track sometime, the Barcelona one is just so slow.

GT3's Smokey Mountain or perhaps El Capitan from GT4?
 
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Instead of rally as we know it, I'd add more time attack-based events, like the return of the Goodwood Hillclimb and the paved-over Pikes Peak. But on that note, I'd also add more non-tarmac rally cars, especially those that were present in the PS2/PS3 era. With Group B alone, you've got the Lancia Delta S4, the Renault 5 Turbo, the Peugeot 205 T16, and the Audi Quattro S1 that wasn't necessarily for Pikes Peak like the one we have already at the moment. Even more Gr.B entries could appear, like the Lancia 037, and maybe even GT-original off-road rally cars like from Lamborghini, Ferrari, and Porsche. (I know some of those automakers had actual Group B rally cars, but I think they were tarmac-only.)
 
I honestly just wish PD would leave rallying alone, or put all the rally cars in tarmac spec and stop implementing what remains some of the worst loose surface physics around. Its implementation has varied from a lower tier meah (right now) to downright utterly wrong (GTS at launch).

It's also not helped by the events being a horrible PD mash-up of what they think Rally Cross is, while still managing to get it wrong, and I'm going to be blunt, putting in Barcelona without putting in the effort to get Joker laps working means the circuit is, to be blunt, wrong.

MIE1992
I know some of those automakers had actual Group B rally cars, but I think they were tarmac-only.
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Sort of, it's often forgotten that Group B wasn't just going to cover rally cars, but also Sportcar Racing to sit alongside Group C. The FIA has a long history of dual-use homologation groupings, in other examples, Group A, Group N, and Group 1 covered both Track and Rally cars. It's only really in the last decade or so that more focused, track specific classifications have become the norm.

en.wikipedia.org

Group B - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
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I agree with Super GT rallycross is a great addition to GT7. The machines in GT are more akin to rallycross cars with 500bhp+. These shorter tracks are much more suitable. Mixed surfaces on dirt tyres are always fun.

While joker laps could be an option for private lobbies. I do think they would be a disaster in a public setting. The real thing is gimmicky and unnecessary.

I want to see point-to-point tarmac stages and these short mixed surface rallycross tracks.

 
The physics gameplay and graphics effects of rally mode of the GT franchise are unpleasant and horrible. Boring, annoying and not fun at all. Cars are weightless as if they were made of styrofoame, run on soap tires and over an frozen terrain.

I understand that PD added the mode rally as a way to meet the Japanese brands that were successful in the modality, such as Mitsubishi and Subaru, presenting their cars and brands.

Honestly, I prefer to play Wreckfest, with its nice and intuitive physics, than rally mode in any GT game.

Also, there is no point in putting the rally and having a reduced number of three or four circuits.

Rally needs to be rethought, maybe Rally Cross is the only suitable modality. But, I would prefer PD to spend its temporal and material resources on new real and classic circuits.
 
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Samus
In games with good loose surface physics, sure. GT is not one of them.



It's in another world. Why anyone would choose to play GT instead of Dirt I have no clue.
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Another level! Another quality level! Gameplay, graphics and sound! All far superior to GT7. It's like comparing Formula 1 with Formula 3000.

Sony-PS Studios urgently needs to found a PD branch in Europe and hire these guys.

PS: What's the point of painting the edges of a strip of sand and clay with a white line?
 
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Nathan88
While joker laps could be an option for private lobbies. I do think they would be a disaster in a public setting. The real thing is gimmicky and unnecessary.
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Luckily we can use the joker in private lobbies (if you can find enough people to fill a grid) it's not one of the zones far enough off the road to reset the car and there are no solid barriers back there.

The contact physics on GT7 don't lend themselves to RX, the cars don't brush against each other nicely but bounce off each other so you can't race side by side on a low grip surface like this (even on the asphalt thanks to the tyres).

Ignoring the driving bits I miss having rally cars in Gran Turismo, if you ignore the hillclimb cars the only rally cars we have in 7 are the Peugeot 205 and the Gordini, I'd welcome a Makinen Evo VI just for part of the car collection alone.
 
Scaff
I honestly just wish PD would leave rallying alone, or put all the rally cars in tarmac spec and stop implementing what remains some of the worst loose surface physics around. Its implementation has varied from a lower tier meah (right now) to downright utterly wrong (GTS at launch).

It's also not helped by the events being a horrible PD mash-up of what they think Rally Cross is, while still managing to get it wrong, and I'm going to be blunt, putting in Barcelona without putting in the effort to get Joker laps working means the circuit is, to be blunt, wrong.


Sort of, it's often forgotten that Group B wasn't just going to cover rally cars, but also Sportcar Racing to sit alongside Group C. The FIA has a long history of dual-use homologation groupings, in other examples, Group A, Group N, and Group 1 covered both Track and Rally cars. It's only really in the last decade or so that more focused, track specific classifications have become the norm.

en.wikipedia.org

Group B - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
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People forget Group B was also going to cover sports car racing.

Popular myth that Ferrari made the 288 GTO for group B rally when they made the 288 GTO for Group B Sports car racing.

288 GTO Evoluzione was supposed to take on the Porsche 961.
 
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Samus
In games with good loose surface physics, sure. GT is not one of them.



It's in another world. Why anyone would choose to play GT instead of Dirt I have no clue.
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As Super GT stated in his video, it’s an incredibly fun mode, that adds further value to a comprehensive GT7 package. People can quite easily avoid rally just as I have little interest in online racing. Ironically rallycross is one area where I will try out online as it’s more rough & tumble.
 
Samus
It really doesn't. Unless you're unaware of the better options out there.
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You don’t own GT7 so not sure why you’re telling the likes of myself and Super GT, who are having fun in this new mode, it doesn’t add value.

You seem to have a number of miscomprehension’s about GT7 from content to game structure. You clearly have an interest. GT7 is the perfect sandbox GT, pick-up and play, choose your own direction. You’re genuinely missing out.
 
Nathan88
GT7 is the perfect sandbox GT, pick-up and play, choose your own direction.
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It's really not, its got it's strengths, but it's also far from perfect.

Nathan88
You don’t own GT7 so not sure why you’re telling the likes of myself and Super GT, who are having fun in this new mode, it doesn’t add value.
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I do, and let's be accurate, it's not a 'new mode' at all.

It's a single Rally Cross track that is treated little different from the racing on the other loose surface locations, still suffers from GT's poor loose surface physics, ignores how RX events actually run, gets the starts wrong (straight line, not staggered positions are correct), gets the starting feeder lane wrong (unless it's been changed from every past WRX event at Catalunya) and completely misses the Joker section. Now, despite your claim, Joker laps are a tactical and important part of Rally Cross, given the short length of the stages and short number of laps, they can and do make a massive difference in reality.

It adds a new layout to an existing location and gets it around 95% complete, and then misses out on what actually would make a new Rally Cross mode!

 
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If they cant improve it they should scrap it then.

Honestly just make it all tarmac rally at this point if Pd cant improve dirt rally. Because scrapping rally means we also scrap the entire rally car list which I dont want to see because lots of those rally cars also work on tarmac.
 
Samus
In games with good loose surface physics, sure. GT is not one of them.



It's in another world. Why anyone would choose to play GT instead of Dirt I have no clue.
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Yup. Just look at how awkwardly the car handles in GT7 compared to an actual rally game.
 
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