Getting Serious

[superjim]

Hey there,

So here's my situation.

Although I'm about 60% of the way through GT3, up until now it's not like I've really been taking it very seriously. It's been like a "I'll just do the odd race now and then, when I don't have something more interesting to do" kind of philosophy. Hell I like the game, and have a genuine (if amateur) interest in racing and set-ups - but to be honest beer and girls has, until now, taken preference over the Playstation.

However, now my financial situation has taken a severe hit. The next year will see me literally scraping a living, the "beer and girls" philosophy is well and truly gone; I have no money and lots of time - this as an excellent opportunity to get into GT3 "seriously" - as (evidently) many are on this forum. (Please don't take offense here though! I'm not implying that people who are really into GT3 are sad, or lacking in a life in some way! )

So here are my "getting serious" objectives...

* Use the manual gearbox always, and get good at it.
* Use the analogue stick for the accelerator instead of the x button.
* Learn to tune cars really well, like have a proper understanding of Toe, Camber, LSD etc... instead of the half-arsed simple "lower the ride height and harden springs etc.." approach I have at the moment.
* Fine tune my driving to the point where I can actually get Gold on the licences (Is that really possible?)
* Get used to the "external view" when driving (I always use the internal one)
* Learn what this "Drift" stuff is all about

So, do my "getting serious" objectives sound about right? Anything else I should be looking into?

 

[daan]

* Use the manual gearbox always, and get good at it.

That's a good one and will help your laptimes.

* Use the analogue stick for the accelerator instead of the x button.

Both have pro's and cons. I don't think that one is better than the other. It's whatever you are comfortable with.

* Learn to tune cars really well, like have a proper understanding of Toe, Camber, LSD etc... instead of the half-arsed simple "lower the ride height and harden springs etc.." approach I have at the moment.

That's important. It's something I need to do too. (Although it's not as important if you are just beating the game. It's crucial to beat other humans in OLR)

* Fine tune my driving to the point where I can actually get Gold on the licences (Is that really possible?)

It is possible. I just think that as long as you've passed them on bronze that it's ok.

* Get used to the "external view" when driving (I always use the internal one)

Again, it's whatever one you feel like using.

* Learn what this "Drift" stuff is all about

Why? That undermines the serious stuff you are trying to do. (Waits to get flamed by the DrIfTeRs)

So, do my "getting serious" objectives sound about right? Anything else I should be looking into?

Once your finances improve, get a wheel.

 

[k2racer]

hmmm, interesting goals...

But, my opinion:

* using the analog stick instead of the x and square seem less serious to me, some of the quickest people around only use the buttons because now you can use brake and throttle at the same time
(like left foot braking, useful on turbocars to keep the pressure up)

* changing from internal to external seems also less serious to me, but there is enough threads on that subject!

Your other goals seem very well chosen, good luck and...........have fun

 

[BigJamesGTI]

What about having getting GT4 as a goal ??? I dunno how many peeps will still be playing GT3 when GT4 comes out ?

 

[Evo7GTA]

If I got GT4 I wouldn't stop playing GT3 completely but I'd definitely be playing GT4 alot

 

[RX-7_FC_DrIfteR]

Well welcome to GT Planet, if u need any help in drifting i would be glad to help.

What about having getting GT4 as a goal ??? I dunno how many peeps will still be playing GT3 when GT4 comes out

well i know i'll be playing gt3 when gt4 comes out. money for me is hard to come by when your trying to pay off a car...

 

[tougedrft]

im definitely getting GT4, but i might not start till i finish GT3...i kept starting all over because i wanna finish the whole game without using auto, TCS, and ASM. im 85.8% done without using them. takes a damn long time =/

 

[JW31]

good luck with your goals..

that reminds me, i gotta start making my own goals for GT3... 48% done hhaha. i'm a loser

 

[kensei]

Why? That undermines the serious stuff you are trying to do. (Waits to get flamed by the DrIfTeRs)

While I am not a "drifter" per-say, I do enjoy taking a car out once in a while and letting it drift around for the fun of it. But, learning to let the rear of the car run loose and/or slid it into corners is a must if you want to get faster. This allows yout to control the apex points better and get around tighter tracks faster. Running the car loose isn't always faster but it is a good skill to have in your toolbox.

I never set out to learn to drift. The more I played GT3 and ran in some OLR I learned to control some slip in the rear of the car to get the nose pointed the right direction at times. The more comfortable with that I got the more I started playing with a car I specifically set up for drifting and really letting the car go and enjoying keeping it in control.

It was an organic thing for me but i think the better skill to learn first is to learn how to let the rear of the car slip in a race situation. Then you can go nuts and go out and 'drift" for the fun of it. Doing it the otherway I think would be frustrating and not make you any faster in a race situation.

hmmm, interesting goals...

But, my opinion:

* using the analog stick instead of the x and square seem less serious to me, some of the quickest people around only use the buttons because now you can use brake and throttle at the same time
(like left foot braking, useful on turbocars to keep the pressure up)

I gotta agree with this. I have used the analog stick for throttle and brake for years but recently I have been playing with using the stick for throttle and R1 for brake. I am a left foot braker when using my wheel but rarely use my wheel anymore (I prefer the DS2 for many reasons). The ability to control the car into a turn and balance the car with left foot braking is key to fast lap times, in some ways more important than the above point. It is a big switch with the DS2, when i learned left foot braking with the wheel it wasn't half as hard....

good luck.

 

[sukerkin]

Hi Superjim

First of all, welcome aboard the GTPlanet.

Your goals do indeed seem to have been well thought out and the answers given above by various members cover all the bases I think.

Just for emphasis, I do have to say that I particularly agree with Kensai's points on drifting as a car control technique. Tho' I scorn "Drifting" per se (winces from flame attacks by DrIfTeRs), as it is inextricably linked with Ricers/Boy Racers in my head (i.e. much more 2F2F than it is BTCC or DTM), in certain circumstances it is advantageous to be able to take the rear end just over the precipice of the grip circle. This allows you to alter the angle of attack of the car into a corner without having to sacifice as much momentum as you would otherwise have to.

As a footnote, I have to admit that some of the 'professional' drifters also race in the JGTC with more than a little success so, despite its problematic public image, the talents required to do it are not wasted if you choose to aquire them.

 

[Swift]

While I am not a "drifter" per-say, I do enjoy taking a car out once in a while and letting it drift around for the fun of it. But, learning to let the rear of the car run loose and/or slid it into corners is a must if you want to get faster. This allows yout to control the apex points better and get around tighter tracks faster. Running the car loose isn't always faster but it is a good skill to have in your toolbox.

I never set out to learn to drift. The more I played GT3 and ran in some OLR I learned to control some slip in the rear of the car to get the nose pointed the right direction at times. The more comfortable with that I got the more I started playing with a car I specifically set up for drifting and really letting the car go and enjoying keeping it in control.

It was an organic thing for me but i think the better skill to learn first is to learn how to let the rear of the car slip in a race situation. Then you can go nuts and go out and 'drift" for the fun of it. Doing it the otherway I think would be frustrating and not make you any faster in a race situation.

Now that was a very good response. Thanks a lot. It's nice to see a player that's not into drifting, understand the benefits of drifting. 👍

 

[DQuaN]

* Get used to the "external view" when driving (I always use the internal one)

I much prefer the intenal view. You can easily aim the wheels at the rumblestrip very acurately (bottom corners of the screen) to get a better racing line. Plus it is 'fixed'; when I use the external view, I don't like the way the car turns before the camera does. It all goes a bit wonky and puts me off. There is no preference for the 'serious' racer. There are plenty of fast people that use both views, as well as (as daan pointed out) the sticks or buttons. Both are acceptable for fast driving, just go with whatever feels comfortable. 👍

 

[SlipZtrEm]

* Use the manual gearbox always, and get good at it.
* Use the analogue stick for the accelerator instead of the x button.
* Learn to tune cars really well, like have a proper understanding of Toe, Camber, LSD etc... instead of the half-arsed simple "lower the ride height and harden springs etc.." approach I have at the moment.
* Fine tune my driving to the point where I can actually get Gold on the licences (Is that really possible?)
* Get used to the "external view" when driving (I always use the internal one)
* Learn what this "Drift" stuff is all about

-Manual is better in 99% of situations. There are a few cars that can be shifted at redline every time and don't ever need to be in a high gear for a turn (read: low-powered, rather revvy cars), but most cars have an optimal shift point either below (Zonda) or above (S2000) their respective reds. And high power cars can benefit from being in a higher gear when negotiating a tight turn. The torque-meister Viper around Laguna is a lot easier to handle if you stick it into 3rd for a couple turns.

-Stick with the buttons (imo). You'll have two seperate controls for throttle/brake, which is more proper than using what amounts to basically a joystick.

-There are plenty of tuning guides around the web for GT, and other than that, there's even some real-life googling that could help that particular situation.

-Yes, Gold is possible. I managed in all three "normal" GT's. Drifting, for the most part, would be counter-productive to this one, though.

-I've stuck with 3rd person, and will continue until we get a proper 1st person. Bumper cam isn't anymore realistic to me than 3rd.

-Drifting can be fun, but Kensei summed it up better than I could. Learning to deal with a bit of lateral slip is ideal for circuit running, but getting the ass-end completely sideways the whole way through a turn isn't any faster. A bit of loose-ness is good for rotating the car quicker than it normally would, but it should still be perfectly controllable. A good comparison would be taking the Arcade versions of the C5R and Oreca out, back-to-back. I prefer the Oreca even if it's on-paper specs aren't a match. The C5R suffers from understeer, the Viper doesn't.

Good list of goals 👍

 

[kensei]

-Stick with the buttons (imo). You'll have two seperate controls for throttle/brake, which is more proper than using what amounts to basically a joystick.

Interesting to read this advice over and over in this thread. I use the right "joystick" for brake/throttle because it gives me more control of the amount of brake or throttle. I never could get the feel with the buttons. It always seemed like "on/off" or all or nothing for me, I never developed the feel I have with the joystick. I've recently tried to learn a left foot braking technique with the DS2 (I am a left foot braker with the wheel) but keep going back to the joystick to control brake/throttle. I guess I have played GT3 for almost 3 years that way. I might as well leave it that way and worry abour relearning it with GT4.

Oddly in GT4 prolouge I don't have trouble with "feel" for the buttons for brake/throttle. Granted it is your only choice but it seems to be better, at least easier to feel the levels with the buttons.

So whether you use the joystick for brake/throttle, learn left foot braking or use the buttons it is al personal. Neither is better than the other, it is all personal preference. Though mastering left foot braking "should" be faster for certian cars, but worry about developing feel for the brake/throttle first.

 

[Giancarlo]

Isn't the debate over automatic/manual sort of useless, since you can handle an automatic car like a manual when you need it to be (using R2 to keep the car revving)?

... And high power cars can benefit from being in a higher gear when negotiating a tight turn. The torque-meister Viper around Laguna is a lot easier to handle if you stick it into 3rd for a couple turns.

Again, you can use R2 to keep the car in a certain gear. But you definitely get quicker stops when you go down the gears. So i use both. For example, using a low 4th to go around a nice wide turn good and straight, or a good solid stop to take a hairpin. Both ways let you pull outta the turn much faster.

 

[xcsti]

Hey why are we arguing on whether or not auto or manual is better? These are his goals, obviously manual is more challenging than auto. Drifting takes incredible control and skill, that is why I appreciate it, not because it is any faster(which it isn't).

 

[Swift]

Hey why are we arguing on whether or not auto or manual is better? These are his goals, obviously manual is more challenging than auto. Drifting takes incredible control and skill, that is why I appreciate it, not because it is any faster(which it isn't).

Excellent retort. Stick is more challenging and drifting helps in the overall skill of controlling a car. Well said. 👍

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Kensei, for me personally, I've never had a problem with feathering the buttons with the DS2. Sure, you only get what, 1mm of travel on them, but I've trained myself to be able to modulate the throttle fairly well. That's probably why I find it more comfortable. I use a Momo Racing for PC stuff, but sadly that doesn't work with the PS2.

 

[TruenoEightSix]

I can't run manual. Not for the life of me. IRL, I could with ease, but on a controller, it's really tough for me. Maybe once I get a wheel I can use the side buttons for the quick "click" action.

Anyways... back to the point. As far as views go, I used to race only with the outside view, but when I switched, I noticed I could get better angles, and cut down my times quite a bit. This was back in the GT2 days (for when I need it, I miss the "far" chase view).

I didn't know you could analog the throttle, but I tried the same feature in NFS: Underground, and couldn't get used to it. It's all about comfort. Your hand may cramp in one position or another, but then what are you gonna do? If it hurts, don't do it.

Drifting? I used to be able to drift like nobody's business, but I was inexperienced and foolish. It's a good technique on dirt and on tight corners, but on wide corners, you'll come out faster using brake and grip driving where braking is necessary.

Tuning: $deity I wish I knew how. I understand the principles of engine tuning (turbo injection, supercharging, and a few NA tuning tricks), but as for suspension, LSD, downforce, and others, I haven't RTFM yet.

Something you missed on that list of things to try: Driving without ASM and TCS. Try a midship engine drivetrain car with a lot of power, and no assistants.

 

[Delphic Reason]

While I am not a "drifter" per-say, I do enjoy taking a car out once in a while and letting it drift around for the fun of it. But, learning to let the rear of the car run loose and/or slid it into corners is a must if you want to get faster. This allows yout to control the apex points better and get around tighter tracks faster. Running the car loose isn't always faster but it is a good skill to have in your toolbox.

I never set out to learn to drift. The more I played GT3 and ran in some OLR I learned to control some slip in the rear of the car to get the nose pointed the right direction at times. The more comfortable with that I got the more I started playing with a car I specifically set up for drifting and really letting the car go and enjoying keeping it in control.

It was an organic thing for me but i think the better skill to learn first is to learn how to let the rear of the car slip in a race situation. Then you can go nuts and go out and 'drift" for the fun of it. Doing it the otherway I think would be frustrating and not make you any faster in a race situation.

Thankyou for that... I'm so tired of people puting down drifting just because there is a handful of ignorant people that enjoy it... We are not all ignorant... Some of us use the techniques to increase our grip driving potential, as well as the for the beauty of a well controlled drift... The fact that some of you put it down so blindly makes me question your driving skills...


Superjim, Your goals seem to be quite sound... I use the analog sticks, and I certainly wouldn't go back to using the buttons... All the buttons are analog, but the sticks just give you a greater degree of adjustability...

 

[kensei]

Thankyou for that... I'm so tired of people puting down drifting just because there is a handful of ignorant people that enjoy it... We are not all ignorant... Some of us use the techniques to increase our grip driving potential, as well as the for the beauty of a well controlled drift... The fact that some of you put it down so blindly makes me question your driving skills...

I've been thinking alot about this whole issue the past few days since I originally posted. I will agree that the default image of drifters is of kids who are ignorant to racing but into bling and being cool. That may be some of it but not all. With grip racing you have the same sorta deal too, ignorant people, I think everything has it's share. However, "drifting" in it's classic sense is an art. The ability to have such control over your car that you can place it anywhere and slide it anywhere at your will is a real art. Watch some of the old GP's from the 30s and you'll see those guys slipping those cars all around to improve apexs and carry speed. Watch sportscars race, especially Porsches, and you will see them controlling the slip into turns amazingly. Or better yet watch so top level go cart racing, they are slipping those cars (on purpose) all over the place...a side note being Alonso in F1. He drives ultra agressive like his cart days and has a style that throws the car into turns, if F1 didn't have so much downforce, mechanical grip and TC you'd see him slipping into turns.

It is all driving skill right? Knowing/feeling/controlling grip, slide, throttle and brake control and all the other little things that go into making a complete driver.

I think you have kids into drifting because it looks cool, and is associated with the tuner culture as is drag racing. They don't know (or care) about really learning to drive, they just want to look cool and see bikinis and bling. At the same time you have racing snobs that see that and think there is no value in it at all and write it off. Both sides are wrong and I agree people who write either side off are missing the big picture.

 

[sukerkin]

Cogently expressed Kensei (and cool avatar too (I'm an Iaidoka, so any imagery involving long, sharp, objects, wielded by chaps in skirts, catches my eye )).

The points you make on drifting the car as a technique (as opposed to Dr1fting the car) pretty much describe the way I think on the issue (as do Alta, Duke, Sage & Famine, to name just a few).

👍

 

[kensei]

Cogently expressed Kensei (and cool avatar too (I'm an Iaidoka, so any imagery involving long, sharp, objects, wielded by chaps in skirts, catches my eye )).

The points you make on drifting the car as a technique (as opposed to Dr1fting the car) pretty much describe the way I think on the issue (as do Alta, Duke, Sage & Famine, to name just a few).

👍

That is Miyomoto Musashi in my AV. I'm a huge fan of Japanese history, particulary the 1500s and early 1600s. The screenname and AV honor him and his thinking/writing and skill.

I find it all has applications to GT and racing..haha!

Iaidoka is pretty amazing. One of these days I am going to drag myself into a kendo studio and actually learn the techniques I've been reading about, in the philisophical sense from Musahi, Takuan Soho, Yagyu Munenori (among others) for years.

I could get much more philosophical but I'll save you all from my ramblings on Japanese zen warrior thinking and how it applies to drifting and racing in a video game and real life.

 

[Delphic Reason]

I've been thinking alot about this whole issue the past few days since I originally posted. I will agree that the default image of drifters is of kids who are ignorant to racing but into bling and being cool. That may be some of it but not all. With grip racing you have the same sorta deal too, ignorant people, I think everything has it's share. However, "drifting" in it's classic sense is an art. The ability to have such control over your car that you can place it anywhere and slide it anywhere at your will is a real art. Watch some of the old GP's from the 30s and you'll see those guys slipping those cars all around to improve apexs and carry speed. Watch sportscars race, especially Porsches, and you will see them controlling the slip into turns amazingly. Or better yet watch so top level go cart racing, they are slipping those cars (on purpose) all over the place...a side note being Alonso in F1. He drives ultra agressive like his cart days and has a style that throws the car into turns, if F1 didn't have so much downforce, mechanical grip and TC you'd see him slipping into turns.

It is all driving skill right? Knowing/feeling/controlling grip, slide, throttle and brake control and all the other little things that go into making a complete driver.

I think you have kids into drifting because it looks cool, and is associated with the tuner culture as is drag racing. They don't know (or care) about really learning to drive, they just want to look cool and see bikinis and bling. At the same time you have racing snobs that see that and think there is no value in it at all and write it off. Both sides are wrong and I agree people who write either side off are missing the big picture.

Well said...

 

[flohtingPoint]

I've been thinking alot about this whole issue the past few days since I originally posted. I will agree that the default image of drifters is of kids who are ignorant to racing but into bling and being cool. That may be some of it but not all. With grip racing you have the same sorta deal too, ignorant people, I think everything has it's share. However, "drifting" in it's classic sense is an art. The ability to have such control over your car that you can place it anywhere and slide it anywhere at your will is a real art. Watch some of the old GP's from the 30s and you'll see those guys slipping those cars all around to improve apexs and carry speed. Watch sportscars race, especially Porsches, and you will see them controlling the slip into turns amazingly. Or better yet watch so top level go cart racing, they are slipping those cars (on purpose) all over the place...a side note being Alonso in F1. He drives ultra agressive like his cart days and has a style that throws the car into turns, if F1 didn't have so much downforce, mechanical grip and TC you'd see him slipping into turns.

It is all driving skill right? Knowing/feeling/controlling grip, slide, throttle and brake control and all the other little things that go into making a complete driver.

I think you have kids into drifting because it looks cool, and is associated with the tuner culture as is drag racing. They don't know (or care) about really learning to drive, they just want to look cool and see bikinis and bling. At the same time you have racing snobs that see that and think there is no value in it at all and write it off. Both sides are wrong and I agree people who write either side off are missing the big picture.

Looks to me like you all are getting way too serious. What is a video game used for? Passing time I'd say. If Jim here wants to pass time by playing Gran Turismo and doing nothing but crashing into walls, hey, its his 50 bucks. If drifting is his forté, who is to say "dont do that, its a waste of time"? Let the man do his thing =)

 

[superjim]

Thanks for the replies guys - whether or not they were explicitly addressed to me.

It is reassuring to know that there are people as interested (geeky) in GT as I am.

However, I'm drunk now, and don't forget.....

There must be 50 ways to leave your lover
Just slip out the back, Jack
Make a new plan Stan
Don't need to be coy Roy
Just get yourself free..

Time for bed I think....

 

[sukerkin]

That is Miyomoto Musashi in my AV. I'm a huge fan of Japanese history, particulary the 1500s and early 1600s. The screenname and AV honor him and his thinking/writing and skill.

I find it all has applications to GT and racing..haha!

Iaidoka is pretty amazing. One of these days I am going to drag myself into a kendo studio and actually learn the techniques I've been reading about, in the philisophical sense from Musahi, Takuan Soho, Yagyu Munenori (among others) for years.

I could get much more philosophical but I'll save you all from my ramblings on Japanese zen warrior thinking and how it applies to drifting and racing in a video game and real life.

This sounds like it could warrant its own thread in an Off Topic Forum, Kensei 👍.

My own study of Japanese history is (or should I say was as I started this as an elective in my first degree ) more focused in the Tokugawan/Meijii Restoration period.

But, obviously, having an interest in all things Samurai has lead me further back into the mists of time as I traced the lineage of families, the development of the katana and the techniques of its use as well as the evolution of armour, other weapons, etiquette, Bushido philosophy et al.

As you allude to above, the philosphy that you learn whilst training to slice people up with three-foot razors is actually applicable to many more aspects of life than most would imagine. I'd be interested in hearing your 'take' on this.

 

[kensei]

This sounds like it could warrant its own thread in an Off Topic Forum, Kensei 👍.

My own study of Japanese history is (or should I say was as I started this as an elective in my first degree ) more focused in the Tokugawan/Meijii Restoration period.

But, obviously, having an interest in all things Samurai has lead me further back into the mists of time as I traced the lineage of families, the development of the katana and the techniques of its use as well as the evolution of armour, other weapons, etiquette, Bushido philosophy et al.

As you allude to above, the philosphy that you learn whilst training to slice people up with three-foot razors is actually applicable to many more aspects of life than most would imagine. I'd be interested in hearing your 'take' on this.

I agree we are on the edge of our own thread...but I'll keep this short and related to GT. Musashi's writings are, even in his own words, related to everything. Anyone interested in mastering a weapon (or a craft, or a skill) could learn wonders from his writings and many of th other zen warrior philosophers of Japan circa 1550-1630'ish.

While I have never handled a sword and trained with one I have used writings such as Musashi's to gain a deeper understanding of activities I do, GT included. In fact alot of the way I approach my daily life is from these writings.

If you want to learn a weapon you can read these writings and learn alot, but if you want to learn how to live and enjoy life you can get just as much out of it.

Specifically with GT I've learned alot form Musashi as far as becoming familier with many styles and weapons (cars) and then perfecting a given technique (style) and/or weapon (car)....once you have the basis for understanding the big picture you can understand your given path.

Not that I am the absolute fastest GT player ever (I am by far not) but I can hold my own and can take my driving to the edge and back. This was all brought about by the topic of drifting and driving skill....one never stops learn but when I opened up to learn other aspects of racing (drifting, style drifting, etc) I became a much better grip racer...



(no more japanese philosophy in this thread I promise...hahah)

 

[JrunkenC]

Very Awesome kensei. If more people took ur open attitude of trying many different style and then finding your own style, I'm sure people would be less ignorant and hateful of other styles. The whole anti-drifters, anti-ricers, anti-muscles people just annoy me more because of their close-mindedness than because of their stupidity (which should be pitied)

Oh yea, and too make this post actually worth something, SuperJim, here's a webpage that I learned a little bit about suspension. It goes a bit into Caster, Camber and Toe. Hope that gives u some good info and good luck on getting serious.
http://www.smithees-racetech.com.au/theory/align.html

 

[superjim]