Goodbye Michael!

[MagpieRacer]

World champion of 1994,1995, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004 and is in the running for 2006. An absolute legend, broken every record, 90 race wins, 68 pole positions, and all this with just 3 teams, Jordan, Benetton and Ferrari.

 

[daan]

I deleted this at the time so as not to spoil it for people that hadn't seen the race yet. I've restored it now.

 

[TMM]

And good ridance.

EVERY record??? I don't think so...

This post will probably get me flammed. In fact this is the 2nd time I have had to type this, so even the computer doesn't want me to post...

 

[Touring Mars]

I took the liberty of editting the YouTube link in the original post... rather than just posting the link, if you take the last bit (after the = symbol) and surround with YouTube tags (using the little icon in the post edit box), hey presto you have a nice video link in your post

 

[Der Meister]

Every record bar 1... race starts.

He is a true legend, even those who don't like him cannot argue that he is a great driver, a great strategist, and a great fighter. His controversial ways of bending the rules may not be a favourite with the public, but to a true F1 fan he is a master... The Master!

He will be sorely missed

Let us all be thankful that we have witnessed the greatest F1 career in history. And in my opinion, he is the greatest all round driver the sport/business of Formula 1 has ever had. ~ The numbers speak for themselves.

 

[Max_DC]

A huge loss for F1 indeed...

 

[daan]

[devil's advocate]
Read this thread and show me a table that Schumacher is on top of.

Highest average qualifying position? Nope

Highest average finishing position? Nope

Highest percentage of pole positions? Nope

Highest percentage of podium finishes? Nope

Schumacher's number of wins, number of points, number of championships etc., stats are, on the whole, because he has been in F1 for 15 years. And he's been in a car capable of winning, in anyone's hands, for about 11 of them. When you divide them by the number of races he's done, Fangio eclipses him every time.
[/devil's advocate]

 

[Der Meister]

[devil's advocate]
Read this thread and show me a table that Schumacher is on top of.

Highest average qualifying position? Nope

Highest average finishing position? Nope

Highest percentage of pole positions? Nope

Highest percentage of podium finishes? Nope

Schumacher's number of wins, number of points, number of championships etc., stats are, on the whole, because he has been in F1 for 15 years. And he's been in a car capable of winning, in anyone's hands, for about 11 of them. When you divide them by the number of races he's done, Fangio eclipses him every time.
[/devil's advocate]

I think you forgot one very basic thing... Fangio only had 51 race starts, as apposed to Schumacher, who at the time of the Malaysian GP (the race which those stats were recorded) had 233 race starts.

If you calculate each drivers averages by the number of race starts, you will discover that Schumacher is far more dominant than Fangio.

----------------Fangio-------Schumacher-----
----------------------------------------------
Overall Stats:---------------------------------
----------------------------------------------
Av/Qual:---------2.08-----------3.57----------
Av/Finish:--------4.57-----------5.77----------
% of Pole:-------52.94----------27.66---------
----------------------------------------------
Calculated by race starts:------------------------
----------------------------------------------
Av/Qual:---------0.04-----------0.01----------
Av/Finish:--------0.08-----------0.02----------
% of Pole:-------2699.94-------6804.36---------


As you can see, Schumacher is the more dominating driver.

I haven't even taken into account that there are more cars to compete against in Schumachers era than in Fangios... which makes another big difference.

If Schumacher qualified last in a race, he would be roughly 22nd (average of total grid positions in his career)... Fangio would have only been roughly 14th... which makes his average far more attractive.

Now who else wants to argue that Schumacher is not the greatest driver of all time?

And he's been in a car capable of winning, in anyone's hands, for about 11 of them.

Name all of these so called 11 years that he had a car capable of winning a world championship??? I can think of 9 (10 if you include this year), 7 of those years he converted, 1 he blew in 1997 on the final race, and the other in '99 he had an accident which forced him out of half of the season with a broken leg. Which I will remind you that he came back from injury to a totally new circuit (Sepang) and dominated before being told to pull aside for his pathetic excuse for a team mate to take the win.

[devil's advocate]

Yeh, right back at you!

 

[mipuumal]

If you calculate each drivers averages by the number of race starts, you will discover that Schumacher is far more dominant than Fangio.

----------------Fangio-------Schumacher-----
----------------------------------------------
Overall Stats:---------------------------------
----------------------------------------------
Av/Qual:---------2.08-----------3.57----------
Av/Finish:--------4.57-----------5.77----------
% of Pole:-------52.94----------27.66---------
----------------------------------------------

´

Umm... lower is better in that case. And you need to be more objective rather than just being a Schumacher fanatic.

Calculated by race starts:------------------------
----------------------------------------------
Av/Qual:---------0.04-----------0.01----------
Av/Finish:--------0.08-----------0.02----------
% of Pole:-------2699.94-------6804.36---------


As you can see, Schumacher is the more dominating driver.

I have no idea what you mean by those numbers.

 

[DQuaN]

Indeed. The first set of stats show Fangio to be the better driver. The second set make no sense.

 

[daan]

I think you forgot one very basic thing... Fangio only had 51 race starts, as apposed to Schumacher, who at the time of the Malaysian GP (the race which those stats were recorded) had 233 race starts.

If you calculate each drivers averages by the number of race starts, you will discover that Schumacher is far more dominant than Fangio.

----------------Fangio-------Schumacher-----
----------------------------------------------
Overall Stats:---------------------------------
----------------------------------------------
Av/Qual:---------2.08-----------3.57----------
Av/Finish:--------4.57-----------5.77----------
% of Pole:-------52.94----------27.66---------
----------------------------------------------
Calculated by race starts:------------------------
----------------------------------------------
Av/Qual:---------0.04-----------0.01----------
Av/Finish:--------0.08-----------0.02----------
% of Pole:-------2699.94-------6804.36---------


As you can see, Schumacher is the more dominating driver.

I'm intrigued as to how you worked out. The average qual and average finish is taken against race starts anyway. If, as you say, Schumacher's average start position is 0.01 then that means he should have had about 230 poles out of 233 starts!

The percentage pole is also taken as an average of race starts. Schumacher has started 27% of his races on pole. Fangio started 52% of his races from pole. Schumacher has more poles, yes, but he has a lower average.

Your figures are wrong.

EDIT: and what they said ^ ^

Name all of these so called 11 years that he had a car capable of winning a world championship??? I can think of 9 (10 if you include this year),

I said about 11. That does not mean exactly 11.

 

[Danoff]

...debate rule number one. If your opponent makes some mistakes but also gets a zinger in (like, for example, pointing out that being relegated to the back of the pack hurts Schumi's averages more than earlier drivers), make sure you ignore that portion of the post and spend the entire time attacking the rest.

Do we really need to have a pissing contest as to whether Michael is better than Fangio? Obviously both drivers are fantastic. Michael raced for longer, which is an achievement in-and-of iteself. Michael is old and still dominating. Fangio has higher percentages during his career. Blah Blah. There is room in Formula 1 for great drivers in many categories.

In terms of domination and consistency over a long period, you can't question Michael is on top. In terms of records held by a long career, Michael comes out on top. Does have have all of the records? Of course not, and there's no way to be sure that he's the best formula 1 driver now or for all time.

But the guy is retiring and he's had an amazing career. He's dominated a sport that's very hard to dominate for a long time. Obviously he's great and deserves a ton of credit. I'd hate to see his tribute thread get marred by a bunch of people trying to one-up.

 

[Piotr]

Goodbye Michael hello Robert

 

[TheMoose]

Too bad he's leaving, I thought he had several more championships in him!!

This will open up the championship next year though.
With Alonso in a ride that probably won't go anywhere & the Finish robot taking Shui's seat it should open up the championship considerably, 07 could be DC's year!!

 

[ExigeEvan]

He was a great driver, but a great racer, he was not.

Yes, I hold a grudge, no I don't intend on dropping it.

 

[Pupik]

[devil's advocate]
Read this thread and show me a table that Schumacher is on top of.

Highest average qualifying position? Nope

Highest average finishing position? Nope

Highest percentage of pole positions? Nope

Highest percentage of podium finishes? Nope

Schumacher's number of wins, number of points, number of championships etc., stats are, on the whole, because he has been in F1 for 15 years. And he's been in a car capable of winning, in anyone's hands, for about 11 of them. When you divide them by the number of races he's done, Fangio eclipses him every time.
[/devil's advocate]

There's only one thing I can take away from Fangio: The Maestro had far less serious competition to deal with thoughout his career. But otherwise, comparing two drivers from vastly different eras of sport doesn't work; never mind that Fangio has a ton of non-championship races and pre-war races that very few statisticians ever consider. Besides, at least Riccardo Patrese's "most races" record is safe...any bets on who will take that record away?

Michael Schumacher was a lot of "modern" drivers all rolled into one; the tactics of a Lauda, the cunning of a Prost, the balls-out speed of Senna...but not a whole lot of personality, as is the state fo the sport recently.

 

[Kylehnat]

There's only one thing I can take away from Fangio: The Maestro had far less serious competition to deal with thoughout his career. But otherwise, comparing two drivers from vastly different eras of sport doesn't work; never mind that Fangio has a ton of non-championship races and pre-war races that very few statisticians ever consider.

I agree. There is never grounds to call anyone the "best ever" at anything. Even in traditional sports like baseball, you can't directly compare stats from one era to the next. Great players/drivers are great regardless, but branding one as the gold standard is a bit short-sided. Fangio or Schumacher? Who cares? If there were a motorsports Hall of Fame, they'd both be in there.

 

[Law93]

this man changed Formula 1 in a way, kind of sad to see him go.....but again, he has showed what he can do, and he did it well 👍

 

[Der Meister]

lol, I take it none of you passed basic math at school then???

To work out an average you devide the number by the amount of race starts, this gives an even number of starts over both drivers, then showing the lostest average.

To work out a percentage, you multiply the number by the amount of race starts, that gives us the maximum possible over every race start, the highest number wins.

The first set of numbers doesn't tell you that Schumacher had 180(ish) more starts at the time of the recording than Fangio did.

The second set ballances it out giving an calculation of each drivers ability if they were given an even number of starts.

Another thing people don't realise (except Pupik) is that Fangio was in a car that in comparison to recent seasons in F1, is like the domination of the 2004 Ferrari. Every year his team were leaps and bounds above the competition, just as Schumacher and Ferrari were in '04.

Real stats are only real when you break them down onto an even playing field, and Schumacher whipes the floor!

Edit: @ danoff 👍 - at least someone here knows what they're talking about

 

[Kylehnat]

lol, I take it none of you passed basic math at school then???

To work out an average you devide the number by the amount of race starts, this gives an even number of starts over both drivers, then showing the lostest average.

To work out a percentage, you multiply the number by the amount of race starts, that gives us the maximum possible over every race start, the highest number wins.

The first set of numbers doesn't tell you that Schumacher had 180(ish) more starts at the time of the recording than Fangio did.

The second set ballances it out giving an calculation of each drivers ability if they were given an even number of starts.

What you just said makes zero sense

"Average Start" and "Average Finish" are standardized numbers, already taking into account the difference in number of starts for each driver.

 

[Ren-Tec]

You guys for get one thing, Fernado has the youngest F1 champion record. But michael is great and he has had his time. Finally Kimi might have a car that don't break down all the time and maybe next year he will be the man.

 

[mipuumal]

The first set of numbers doesn't tell you that Schumacher had 180(ish) more starts at the time of the recording than Fangio did.

The second set ballances it out giving an calculation of each drivers ability if they were given an even number of starts.

So you are assuming that if Fangio would've driven 180 more races than he did, he would've started all of those from the back of the grid and always retired?

The first set of numbers is the correct one.

Besides, at least Riccardo Patrese's "most races" record is safe...any bets on who will take that record away?

Unless Rubens retires after the next season, he will get it.

 

[Blake]

To those who are bad mouthing Michael, can we please let this 1 thread be a celebration of all the great things he has acheived in his career, not a thread to flame a retiring champion.

👎

 

[tigermoth737]

Michael is the only driver that in his final year of racing has still been extremely fast.I have found a great peace in knowing that he will leave the sport in a better state then he found it. Michael has been the single most important idol in my life. he is no cheat, I believe he did those things (Adelaide 94,Jerez 97,Monaco 06) out of distress, distress of losing something that he had worked so hard for, something that meant so much to him. I thank him for his influence on my life, I hope he can go out on this championship on a high. Thank You Michael

 

[TMM]

To those who are bad mouthing Michael, can we please let this 1 thread be a celebration of all the great things he has acheived in his career, not a thread to flame a retiring champion.

👎

But that's the point. A celebration of all the great things he has done, well I don't think they are so great and as we live in a free society I'm exercising my freedom of speech or writing in this case. Nobody has to agree with me, it's my opinon. Can't you 'fans' take any critisum of how he has performed whilst in the F1 arena?

Michael is the only driver that in his final year of racing has still been extremely fast.I have found a great peace in knowing that he will leave the sport in a better state then he found it. Michael has been the single most important idol in my life. he is no cheat, I believe he did those things (Adelaide 94,Jerez 97,Monaco 06) out of distress, distress of losing something that he had worked so hard for, something that meant so much to him. I thank him for his influence on my life, I hope he can go out on this championship on a high. Thank You Michael

In what way has he left the sport in a better state than he found it in when he joined? They have moved to V8 engines from V10, they have traction control and semi-auto gearboxes so there's even less for the drivers to do. Thats great advancement for a driving sport.

So if I went out and killed someone because of the distress of losing my mother that would be Ok would it?

 

[Roo]

he is no cheat, I believe he did those things (Adelaide 94,Jerez 97,Monaco 06) out of distress, distress of losing something that he had worked so hard for, something that meant so much to him.

Unlike his opponents, who presumably didn't care? You don't get into championship battles without working hard and putting everything you've got into winning. That applies just as much to the Hills, Villenueves, Alonsos and Hakkinens of this world as it does to Schumacher.

I was never a Schumacher fan (as some of you may have noticed) - there was just something about him that annoyed the hell out of me. Probably the fact that every time I watched him win it made me somewhat depressed for an hour or so afterwards. Don't ask me why, becuase I don't know - probably the monotany ("Oh, he's won again. Well there's a suprise.") (That's also how I feel about the rest of this season.) But I can appriciate that he's a damn good driver. I came across a quote (from here) that pretty accurately sums up my feelings about Michael:

He's done some fantastic drives, he's made some stupid mistakes. He's not a great in my mind like Fangio, but is one of the most talented drivers."

I can't deny that I'm looking forward to Melbourne, knowing he won't be racing. But I suppose I can at least say I saw him race and break all those records.

And on a side note, when asked about how he felt about Michael retiring, Jarno Trulli replied with:

We will miss him a little bit as a driver. We will miss him a lot in the football matches.

... which I thought was brilliant

 

[Gabkicks]

i have nothing but good wishes for michael. i apreciate all of the great racing and battles he has given us and for dedicating so much time, effort to F1 . He is an amazing driver and i think it is best for him to retire now while he is on the top of his game

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

lol, I take it none of you passed basic math at school then???

To work out an average you devide the number by the amount of race starts, this gives an even number of starts over both drivers, then showing the lostest average.

Which is exactly what the top set of numbers is. You don't divide it twice.

To work out a percentage, you multiply the number by the amount of race starts, that gives us the maximum possible over every race start, the highest number wins.

No, to work out a percentage you divide the number of poles by the number of races. The maximum possible is 100%.

OK?

 

[weiss_komet]

It's too bad, it may be good for the rest of the feild, but not for the fanbase. He has done a lot for F1 and is a true champion in every form of the word. He was an idol to me as well.

My NASCRAP Dad dislikes him though.

 

[Lee]

Meh Scott Speed is better..

Ok, maybe not, I kinda felt like F1 will be a little less F1-like without him, he's the guy who the current generation will be telling their grandkids about, just like the current golden oldies tell us about Jackie Stweart or Fangio or Lauda etc etc.

He did make some bad baaaad choices but boy they were entertaining.