Grade Pontiac's Brand of Excitement to Automobiles.

[JohnBM01]

Have you been watching college football and seen some Pontiac cars being every bit as athletic as college athletes? Been watching college basketball and perhaps see a Pontiac zoom all over a basketball court? Been watching Speed Channel, and during Grand-Am coverage or something, see Pontiac-powered Daytona Prototypes? Maybe you seen Oprah give away 276 G6's to her audience? GTPlanet, Pontiac is told to be a sole provider of excitement. However, players, apparentely Pontiac has had slogans such as "Fuel for the Soul," and "Built for Action." GTP, let's grade this excitement Pontiac is trying to provide.

(not direct quote) "Well, damn all of you except John then." -M5Power, after saying that he likes the new GTO as I did too.

I'm sorry. Except for the new GTO and maybe the Solstice as well, Pontiac isn't really exciting. I can respect the stats of cars such as the "First-Ever G6," but I'm just not really turned on. Since the Firebird/Trans-Am's demise, they don't have too much to offer that's *exciting*. Why do I like the new GTO? For one, it's the only decent-looking Pontiac other than the Solstice (explained later). On top of that, the Holden styling makes this car look mean, just not overdoing it. I think Pontiac seemed to do a great job with this car. People said that it looks bland or lacks spirit. Hell, looks better than most other Pontiacs of today, even if it does look a bit last-gen. That brings me to an all-new car. I'd still buy a Miata, but the Solstice is a pretty nice car to me. I think it starts around $19K or $22K, but actually looks like something worth excitement. All other cars, I'm not turned on much. For example, the Grand Prix Comp G, the G6, the Torrent, and all... just not really turned on. Unless it's neck-snapping performance behind the wheel, then that's the only leeway I'll give to Pontiac's version of excitement.

Your turn, GTPlanet. Sound off!

 

[Ev0]

I have no idea why Pontiac exists. Their lineup of their bread-and-butter cars is just as crappy as any other GM brand (except for Cadillac). They also sell the Montana SV6 minivan; one of my most hated vehicles. Why a so called performance division sells a minivan is beyond me. What is even further beyond me is that it sells well too... at least it does in Toronto; these monstrosities are everywhere there.

They only sell two performance oriented vehicles, the Solstice and the GTO. The Solstice is a pointless car to me; the Miata is superior to it in every category (except styling, where it edges out the Mazda), so I see no reason to buy one. It's a nice try, but GM's engineers have to do better if they want to compete against the mighty Miata. A useable trunk is a good start.

As for the GTO, it is a good car; damn near anything with the Corvette's pushrod V8 will be a good car. It's not selling well though (and it's not even offered in Canada!), because I believe it has had poor marketing and it has bland styling. Good marketing is key to selling cars; just look at how well Dodge and Chrysler are doing after their Hemi marketing camapign (the new Hemi V8 is a good engine though). And of course, the GTO is supposed to be a muscular coupe. The GTO's styling does not reflect this though. There is nothing that really sets it apart.

So in summary, Pontiac sucks, but they could have a pair of good cars if they put more effort into them.

 

[Joey D]

Pontiac is decent I must say, they have a unique brand that targets younger people.

The new Torrent is one of the best small SUV's on the market I think. And they are planning a GTP version of it shortly. Pontiac really stepped it up after the Aztek fiasco.

The G6 isn't a terriable car, not the best by any means, but a decent car. I would never consider buying one, but many people buy them. A convertable version is due out very soon.

The Soltice is freakin cool, if you don't like it I suggest you go out and drive one. They are sporty as hell and just a blast to drive. The GXP version will be turboed or superchraged or something...I'm not sure. But its rumored to have close to 260hp which is more then enough with that car. However I like the looks of the Sky more.

The Grand Prix is good and has pretty much always been good. However its a tad overpriced now. I want one, but I can't afford one.

The Vibe, well I can say much about that never even being inside one before. It looks like something teenage girls would like.

The Montana, I'm not going to ever say anything good ever about any mini van made by any company.

Finally the GTO. I like it, I like it a lot. They are fast, they sound sexy, and if you can't afford a Vette it's the next best thing. I would gladly take the GTO or the Chrager any day.

So Pontiac is decent, I wouldn't really knock them too much. GM sells Pontiacs, they could sell better but thats with the new marketing is supposed to do.

 

[skip0110]

They have that FWD V8 Grand Prix, which would have been an out of the park hit if this was 1998, but today it's not all that impressive.

 

[Dave A]

I like the GTO, thats about it and the GTO's just a re-badged Holden. Overall I can't really comment on the Pontiac range since the closest to Pontiac's we get over here are re-badged Holden's albit with a Vauxhall badge on instead.

 

[super cirrus]

G6: Bland style, supercharged and still less powerful than competition.

Solstice: Great car, though could use a more agressive front fascia.

Torrent: Underpowered. Either get rid of it or make it exciting.(Turbo and AWD?Hmmm...)

GTO: Sweet Car. Add the vette's 6 speed auto as an option for pansy drives.

Grand Prix: Needs to be rear wheel drive, have a 5-6 speed auto with better gear ratios, and/or offer a manual.

Vibe: Add a supercharger or turbo and the 6-speed manual to the AWD version and create a more spacious competitior for the Subaru WRX/ Mitsubishi Evo.

Sv6: Get rid of it or...nah, just get rid of it.

 

[Firebird]

G6: Bland style, supercharged and still less powerful than competition.

The G6 is not supercharged.

 

[xXSilencerXx]

The G6 is not supercharged.

The Cobalt SS is.

I like the GTO a lot. It looks way better in real lif than in pictures to me. The Grand Prix is somewhat sporty but I still think its stupid to make a FWD V8, that kinda defeats the pupose of makin a GTP/SS.

 

[super cirrus]

The G6 is not supercharged.

your right. I was thinking of the previous gen. grand prix gtp.

 

[Ev0]

I agree, the Grand Prix should be rear wheel drive. Whoever thought sticking a V8 into a front wheel drive was a good idea needs to be fired; the unequal weight distribution is going to make handling terrible. Make it rear wheel drive, offer a good 6 speed manual, and it could be a really good car.

 

[Wolfe]

I agree, the Grand Prix should be rear wheel drive. Whoever thought sticking a V8 into a front wheel drive was a good idea needs to be fired; the unequal weight distribution is going to make handling terrible. Make it rear wheel drive, offer a good 6 speed manual, and it could be a really good car.

A 1990 Grand Prix nearly killed a couple friends of mine...the driver rolled it on a country road. Yeah, dumb mistake, teenage driver, but considering he thought it was a RWD sportscar...instead of the front-heavy, unbalanced, terrible-handling, poor excuse for a "Grand Tourer" that it is...

I've since come to despise Pontiac's "sporty" facade.

 

[Joey D]

Your friend was an idiot, it takes a lot to roll a car like that.

But I think the Grand Prix is a pretty good car. I hate how every wants RWD, well guess what the car would be more expensive and then no one would buy it. FWD is what a majority of the market wants.

 

[neanderthal]

the entire pontiac line sux.
two cars redeem it slightly.
the solstice (which is let down by that massive protruberance in the trunk. who wants a shoebox sized trunk?)
the GTO but why did they make it uglier with those fake nostrils.

the rest of the line blows. period.

 

[Layla's Keeper]

Well, it's only been a year or so and I already miss the Bonneville. At least it went out with a bang thanks to the optional quad-cam V8 out of the Aurora/Northstar family.

That was a startlingly fun car for a big FWD sedan. Once you got it out onto a highway, you could just lay into the 3800 and have your face torn off.

The current generation of Grand Prix has been around since the mid 90's, even though it's been restyled, facelifted, and had the suspension underneath the unibody rehashed numerous times. It's a good midsize sedan, and with the supercharged 3800 and DEFINITELY with the 5.3L Vortec V8, it's a good midsize sedan with some serious acceleration.

Is it a BMW 330ci in the corners? Hell no. But put it in context against a Mazda 6 (that's Atenza for you foreign folks), an Acura TSX, or Chrysler Sebring and all of a sudden its a rorty stomper of a midsize.

The Solstice is a dream come true (especially for those of us who remember the last time Pontiac tried the small sports car market - Fiero). It's lovely, it has a strong engine, good handling dynamics, and is priced just right for the market. I whole-heartedly expect the Solstic to cannabalize some Miata sales especially in one sector where Miata may have screwed the pooch.

The new generation of Miata is nowhere near as cute looking as previous generations. The Solstice has pretty to burn. I'll bet you dollars to dimes that Miata's male/female buyer split will level out while Solstice will pick up a lot of female buyers.

Which is a good thing. The sales of luxo automatic Miatas financed the sales of six-speed and turbo Miatas. The more cute red women's runabout Solstices are sold, the more likelihood I'll be driving a supercharged Solstice Coupe in 2007.

Finally, the GTO. Any way you slice it, the GTO has done honest good at Pontiac. It's a quality car with a high customer satisfaction rating and its link to Pontiac's dominance in GARRA road racing, NHRA Pro Stock, and SCCA Formula Drift has cemented the car's performance image. In fact, the new Pontiac GTO is the most raced GTO the factory has ever put out.

While sales were lukewarm because of the car's discreet styling (nowhere near as flamboyant as competitors like the Infiniti G35), the GTO garnered a reupatiton as a value buy, a quality car, and a great performer.

 

[Wolfe]

Your friend was an idiot, it takes a lot to roll a car like that.

But I think the Grand Prix is a pretty good car. I hate how every wants RWD, well guess what the car would be more expensive and then no one would buy it. FWD is what a majority of the market wants.

My friend understeered severely on the entrance to the corner, panicked, slammed on the brakes, went into a slide sideways, countersteered to avoid an oncoming car, and flew off of the upper edge of the steeply-banked corner. The roll was induced by the side of the car impacting against a road sign, while in mid-air.

Was he an idiot? Yes. However, I was following behind him at the same corner entry speed in a 1989 Celica GT Convertible. Did the Celica understeer and lose control? No.

That Grand Prix was a heavy, softly-sprung, understeer-happy car that had a big, powerful V6 crammed under the hood, powering the front wheels. How could Pontiac call that a good design? I drove the car myself -- any slightly-enthusiastic cornering was met with screaming tires and a disturbing amount of bodyroll. I imagine Pontiac's other models are similar.

If you want to say Pontiacs are "muscular," go right ahead. But "sporty" they are not. At all.

 

[Joey D]

I driven several Grand Prixs in my time, regular ones to the GTP version to the Comp versions. I don't seem to have a problem, I just drive better I guess because I don't drive a FWD like a RWD.

You want to know why your friend lost control? Because he entered the corner to quickly. But besides the Grand Prix isn't made for bs around, its a sporty -ish sedan meant to move people. It doesn't even have a ton of power out of the "big" V6 as you call it. It has a decent amount of power, with a decent suspesion, that is meant to move up to 5 people fairly comfortably.

 

[Wolfe]

I driven several Grand Prixs in my time, regular ones to the GTP version to the Comp versions. I don't seem to have a problem, I just drive better I guess because I don't drive a FWD like a RWD.

You want to know why your friend lost control? Because he entered the corner to quickly. But besides the Grand Prix isn't made for bs around, its a sporty -ish sedan meant to move people. It doesn't even have a ton of power out of the "big" V6 as you call it. It has a decent amount of power, with a decent suspesion, that is meant to move up to 5 people fairly comfortably.

My friend lost control because he entered the corner too quickly, yes. Does that mean that all cars on the planet would have lost control at that speed? No, the entry speed was simply too quick for that Pontiac. That's the point I'm making.

The V6 was the optional 24-valve unit, which is rated at just over 200hp, I believe. More than enough, or too much, for a 16-year-old.

And if the Grand Prix should only be a decent people-mover, then it has no business having a sporty image. Which was the whole point of this thread and my argument in the first place.

(P.S. -- The Grand Prix that my friend crashed was a 2-door...5 people was technically possible, but definitely not comfortable, unless 3 of the people were small children. )

 

[Joey D]

Upon futher review I see it was a 1990 Grand Prix, that means that car was old, there could have been a lot wrong with it. The new Grand Prixs are sporty, I talking like the ones on the road now.

I think you are blaming to much on the car and not the idiot behind the wheel. The car was fine, but the tires could have been bad, the suspension could have been worn, hell there are a number of things. You are just focusing to much on the car.

Ponitac is a sporty brand, the only non sporty thing is the mini van.

 

[skip0110]

But I think the Grand Prix is a pretty good car. I hate how every wants RWD, well guess what the car would be more expensive and then no one would buy it. FWD is what a majority of the market wants.

Daimler Chrysler has managed to make a RWD/AWD (Magnum/Charger) platform with pricing competitive to the FWD Grand Prix.

GM is trying to revitalize an old platform by cramming a V8 into it, but frankly what is needed is a new platform. FWD is okay (and I'll buy your argument) for some Buicks and Chevrolets, but any car with "excitement" branding needs either a more refined chassis or at least RWD.

 

[Joey D]

There are RWD platforms in the works, but you have to remember for years R&D went to FWD cars not RWD...it takes time to switch back over...and money.

 

[///M-Spec]

I hate how every wants RWD, well guess what the car would be more expensive and then no one would buy it. FWD is what a majority of the market wants.

Wait a minute. Last I checked everyone is most definately the majority. So how can everyone want RWD, but the majority of the market wants FWD?


I think I'm in the same boat with neandertal on Pontiac. I like the GTO. From what I've seen, I like the Solstice too. Everything else in the current lineup is only passably average.

That new V8 is just plain weird. They put wider tires on the FRONT of the car to make it more neutral. I understand why they had to, given what little they had to work with... But it still disturbs me on a gut level.

'90s Grand Ams and Grand Prixs were horrible cars.


M

 

[Joey D]

Everyone on these forums wants it, but the general public still wants FWD or just don't care. Car guys want RWD, general public doesn't care.

 

[///M-Spec]

^ I agree with all that.

And if you're going to have a brand whose mission it is to cater to people who get excited about cars (rather see them as convences for going from A to B), they should understand that FWD has it's limits.

It's perfectly acceptable for ~200hp and 2800 lbs. It is unacceptable for ~300hp and 3800 lbs.

So as it pertains to Pontiac; so long as they don't give car guys what they (we) want, they (we) will continue to go elsewhere.

The GTO and the Solstice are both RWD... no wonder we consider them the brand's saving graces.


M

 

[skicrush]

Doug is a trend researcher for Nissan, and he concurrs--the general public simply doesn't care about RWD. Problem is, at some point, what is cool determines what the public wants, and RWD is, without question, what is cool (BMW, Merc, ANY real sports car). So, that's the direction everyone OUGHT to be heading. Most are just slow (ie comparing them to molasses in January makes the molasses look like quicksilver). But am I the only one that has heard that the next Grand Prix is going to be RWD? You guys need to read more.
http://www.automobilemag.com/news/0509_pontiac_future/
It's the General--these things take time (like turning the Titanic around-type time). But it is clearly the direction the market is heading. The V8 is just a temporary fix (if you call five years temporary like GM does).

I've been a GM guy since I was little, but they sure aren't trying very hard anywhere but Cadillac and Corvette these days. They have design hits--they just opt to NOT produce them. The Solstice was a miracle. This car should have been the G6. http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/news_reports/2004-australian-motor-show-holden.htm But we never even heard about it here. Until they start making vehicles people WANT to own, all the union wrangling and everything else is just damage control.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

1st off I would just like to say I LOVE people who try to blame cars for wrecking instead of drivers--you can tell that they are really smart! their friend would never have wrecked if he was in a better handling car! it's not like he could have possibley been going faster in a better handling car because he knew it could go faster through turns no sir. it's also Not possible that if he owned that car he had every chance to learn the limits of that car absolutley not likewise in a better handling car it's not that he thought he could make his car go faster than it could & would have done that in ANYTHING.-------anyway why sweet Jesus why? why would someone start a thread about Pontiacs in a GT4 website forum? 80% of these people are kids who have barely driven if they even have yet or just play GT4 adore all the Japanese cars because if you modify them thay can go fast? they can't generally stock mind you, but once you tune them! by the way thanks to those said people---- I know I needed to see 5-6-7 hell i dont know Brand new skylines!! whoo-hooo midnight purple!! vspec bcgd vspec bdgd vspec hsgfs vspec hshs NUR vspec shsgh YAAAAAAYY!
anywhoo----Pontiac G6--- Supercharged V6-260Hp YES

 

[LeadSlead#2]

not that i want one but YES they do exist it Is an option--to all 6 of you who said they don't do some research or please,, don't comment if you don't know--Thanx

 

[LeadSlead#2]

has anyone in here ever actually OWNED a 90's grand-am, or are you all just talking about what some guy you know thinks something you don't know about?

 

[Ev0]

I've been a GM guy since I was little, but they sure aren't trying very hard anywhere but Cadillac and Corvette these days. They have design hits--they just opt to NOT produce them. The Solstice was a miracle. This car should have been the G6. http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/news_reports/2004-australian-motor-show-holden.htm But we never even heard about it here. Until they start making vehicles people WANT to own, all the union wrangling and everything else is just damage control.

Sadly, some people do like current Pontiacs. You can see all sorts of the new Pontiac lineup on the streets of Toronto; Pontiacs are very popular cars there for some reason that is beyond my comprehension.

anywhoo----Pontiac G6--- Supercharged V6-260Hp YES

Mark my words, that car will become the new definition of understeer. 260hp is just simply too much for a FWD car, especially one with a V6. Unless you don't care about handling that is...

 

[skicrush]

My brother owned a 91 grand prix sedan, and it's suspension was like jello, and the brakes were nothing more than an off-hand suggestion. His best friend owned a GTP coupe, but it was still not even in Camaro territory. And my dad has a 2002 GTP sedan now, which is worlds better. He even prefers it to my uncle's 2004 330xi. Like I said about people not caring about RWD. Now, can we stop discussing somebody's friend that got in a wreck?

[EDIT]
Wow, I'm replying to things that I haven't even read yet!

I believe (shooting from the hip here) Pontiacs are made up there somewhere--I've heard Detroit is planning on annexing parts of Ontario. Anyway, that may account for a lot of the Pontiacs you see up there.

And the definition of understeer already features the new 300+ hp V8 Grand Prix.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

not arguing that these cars might understeer----havent driven one so i'm not sure but they probly do---however all of GM cars that are FF generally do pretty well with under-oversteer (leaning towards under) BUT--if G6's Grand Ams & Grand Prixs will for to much power--- 260-300---that still makes Pontiac no dumber than NISSAN--see Altima-260 & Maxima-265 & also see Mitsubishi--Eclipse-260