Grade Pontiac's Brand of Excitement to Automobiles.

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Wolfe2x7
My friend understeered severely on the entrance to the corner, panicked, slammed on the brakes, went into a slide sideways, countersteered to avoid an oncoming car, and flew off of the upper edge of the steeply-banked corner. The roll was induced by the side of the car impacting against a road sign, while in mid-air.

Was he an idiot? Yes. However, I was following behind him at the same corner entry speed in a 1989 Celica GT Convertible. Did the Celica understeer and lose control? No.

That Grand Prix was a heavy, softly-sprung, understeer-happy car that had a big, powerful V6 crammed under the hood, powering the front wheels. How could Pontiac call that a good design? I drove the car myself -- any slightly-enthusiastic cornering was met with screaming tires and a disturbing amount of bodyroll. I imagine Pontiac's other models are similar.

If you want to say Pontiacs are "muscular," go right ahead. But "sporty" they are not. At all.
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There are way to many variables to blame the incident complete on the car. I believe excess speed and lack of driver skill are partly to blame. Not to mention vehicle age, properly inflated and balanced tires or excessive tire wear, mismatched tires, blown/worn suspension, road conditions, bad brakes, etc. If this had happened in a brand new car, then maybe you'd be on to something.
 
BlazinXtreme
Everyone on these forums wants it, but the general public still wants FWD or just don't care. Car guys want RWD, general public doesn't care.
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True, and that's why GM has divisions like Chevy, Buick, Saturn, etc to keep the general public happy. Pontiac, however, is supposed to be the excitement division, the division for car guys, and as of now it doesn't have very many exciting products
 
LeadSlead#2
has anyone in here ever actually OWNED a 90's grand-am, or are you all just talking about what some guy you know thinks something you don't know about?
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In the mid '90s I drove at least half a dozen Grand Am (and a couple of Grand-Prix) rentals while on business trips for techincal training. I probably have 1500+ combined miles of wheeltime on the model. Most of them had less than 3000 miles on the odo, one had ~150 something. The car had mush for a suspension, which I could forgive if it didn't also ride so poorly. The steering was not only numb and lifeless, but confused effort with feel. The interior was a mess of cheap plastic an entry level economy car would be embarrased to be saddled with. It was simply a bad car. Not the worst ever, but certainly not one of GM's better efforts by a long shot.

I also remember getting into a Grand Prix that had ~900 miles on it and the brake rotors were already warped so bad, the pedal pulsated like a paint mixer and the steering wheel jiggled like a fat chick at a Warrant concert.


M
 
I don't want to be mean but please don't tell me about rental cars i've driven rental cars with barely any miles on them to They always suck in every way not to mention the fact that they almost never come loaded.
2nd. off plastic interior? yeah-- what 15K cars didnt have plastic interiors in the early & mid 90's?
 
You wanted to know if anyone in the thread owned a '90s Grand Am. I've never owned one, but drove enough of them to offer my opinion. The reason I mentioned they were rentals was incidental --only to explain how I'd come to log over 1000 miles on a type of car I didn't actually own. The reason I offered the milage was to show they weren't ragged out beaters with 100,000 miles on them.

As for options-- none of the problems I had with the car would have been solved by leather seats or sunroofs or in-dash CDs. They were fundamental to the car itself and nothing you can fix with a glue on spoiler or pinstripes.

As for the interior, it's my opinion that the Grand Am was sub-par interior when compared to even less expensive cars in it's day. This is nothing new or contraversial: lots of GM interiors from the '90s and even many recent cars have lousy interiors.


M
 
Well, to each his own you say you've seen better, I can't say I have, at least, not in the price range
 
LeadSlead#2
not arguing that these cars might understeer----havent driven one so i'm not sure but they probly do---however all of GM cars that are FF generally do pretty well with under-oversteer (leaning towards under) BUT--if G6's Grand Ams & Grand Prixs will for to much power--- 260-300---that still makes Pontiac no dumber than NISSAN--see Altima-260 & Maxima-265 & also see Mitsubishi--Eclipse-260
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Agreed; all three of those cars would be much better off with rear wheel drive (especially the Eclipse, which is a performance car unlike the two Nissans).

And I think current Maximas have a whopping 280hp (for a front wheel drive platform that is...)
 
A number of you say that the GTO and Solstice are saving graces for Pontiac. Are there any other recent Pontiacs that may be a potential sleeper hit? Or in other words, is there actually another Pontiac that can serve as a "saving grace" for those who think Pontiac is just a turkey of a car company?
 
Nope, not until they transition the Grand Prix to RWD. Don't get me wrong--there are a lot of people that love it how it is. But it won't win any accolades from the motoring press until the RWD version comes out. The grand prix is and has been faster off the line than the BMW 3 series for quite a while. But that's the only card it has to play. The handling is tons better than the older ones, but still a world away from BMW's balance. When they're faster and in the same ballpark in handling (say, G35 territory), then they'll have something on etheir hands. Until then, not much excitement in the driving excitement division.

I mean, this company produced the Aztec. Need I say more?
 
I keep pointing this out, and it keeps getting ignored, so I'm going to put it in as huge letters as they'll let me......

THE GRAN PRIX IS NOT A BMW COMPETITOR. IT'S A CAMRY/ACCORD COMPETITOR.

Compare it against those snoozeboxes and then you'll see why people enjoy it ESPECIALLY since you can usually get a Gran Prix cheaper than you can get the Toyota or Honda.
 
:lol: Well thats clear enough.

But I can't wait till the Soltice GXP comes out...2.4L turbo! Can you say "F U miata!".
 
Layla's Keeper
I keep pointing this out, and it keeps getting ignored, so I'm going to put it in as huge letters as they'll let me......

THE GRAN PRIX IS NOT A BMW COMPETITOR. IT'S A CAMRY/ACCORD COMPETITOR.

Compare it against those snoozeboxes and then you'll see why people enjoy it ESPECIALLY since you can usually get a Gran Prix cheaper than you can get the Toyota or Honda.
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Please. I'd much rather have the Accord as its a much more fun car to drive. And the reason the GP is so cheap is because of all the rebates and employee discount gimicks needed to move them off the lot. Neither Honda nor Toyota has had to use that tactic yet, and there is a reason.
 
Not true, GM is not offering employee pricing anymore. With the Grand Prix you get 1500 cash allowance or 1.9% financing for 36 months. And I wouldn't call a Grand Prix boring by any means, the comp packages offer a goodly amount of power.
 
Okay, I'll break it down for those of you who just don't get it:

Friend = Idiot. (I believe I've stated this...maybe three times now?)

Grand Prix = Bad.

Friend + Better Car + That same situation = Accident less likely.

Big, heavy, powerful, understeer-happy FF sedans = Not sporty

Pontiac = Not sporty
 
Layla's Keeper
I keep pointing this out, and it keeps getting ignored, so I'm going to put it in as huge letters as they'll let me......

THE GRAN PRIX IS NOT A BMW COMPETITOR. IT'S A CAMRY/ACCORD COMPETITOR.

Compare it against those snoozeboxes and then you'll see why people enjoy it ESPECIALLY since you can usually get a Gran Prix cheaper than you can get the Toyota or Honda.
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In that case Pontiac has some of the most misguided marketing in business history. They are using excitement as a selling point, yet in most of Pontiac's markets, excitement is an afterthought in the minds of most buyers. Brilliant strategy on their part...

That, and there are plenty of reasonably priced midsize sedans that are considered better drives than a Grand Prix. Mazda 6 anyone? And the class leading Accord is generally considered to have decent performance.
 
Ev0
In that case Pontiac has some of the most misguided marketing in business history. They are using excitement as a selling point, yet in most of Pontiac's markets, excitement is an afterthought in the minds of most buyers. Brilliant strategy on their part...

That, and there are plenty of reasonably priced midsize sedans that are considered better drives than a Grand Prix. Mazda 6 anyone? And the class leading Accord is generally considered to have decent performance.
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And some people wonder why GM isn't doing so well... :lol:
 
it's really funny how everyone in here (alomost) can rag on GM so bad -------- BMW';s rock! toyotas!! HONDA!!! yay!! who sells more cars GM? or honda? ok good how bout toyota? no? ok,..how bout BMW? the crappy ones are 30,000$??????!!!!?? ok well you tell me who sells more cars nobody??? why not?? what about Ford? not them either huh? ummmmmmmmmm...........?? maybe nevermind
 
how about we don't compare a 50K corvette to a 1-500K exotic & talk about the cheaper interior? sound good? maybe 50K can only pay for so much. maybe---in a crazy scheme, GM actually wanted to sell more than 250 Vette's a year like all these super-awesome exotics maybe i'm wrong but I think there's nothing that can compare with GM's value sports cars or muscle whichever makes YOU happier. what? an M5 costs 100,000$$$ wow neat
I'll Take A Viper
 
Boy, can you say touchy?

BMW's advertising is consistent with the product they deliver. So is the accord, camry, CORVETTE, you name it.

You're right--we're ragging on Pontiac. Why? Their (Pontiac's) brand positioning is inconsistent with their product. The Solstice and the GTO fit the bill--everything else doesn't. Maybe lead should check the background on some of the people he's lecturing on GM products. I've written volumes on the vette and Pontiac--check some of the old threads. They have to do something, or GM's gonna have to sell them off or shut them down.
 
LeadSlead#2
it's really funny how everyone in here (alomost) can rag on GM so bad -------- BMW';s rock! toyotas!! HONDA!!! yay!! who sells more cars GM? or honda? ok good how bout toyota? no? ok,..how bout BMW? the crappy ones are 30,000$??????!!!!?? ok well you tell me who sells more cars nobody??? why not?? what about Ford? not them either huh? ummmmmmmmmm...........?? maybe nevermind
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Dude. Chill out for minute.

This thread is about Pontiacs. Not Corvettes. It makes zero sense to defend Pontiac based on how great a car the Corvette is. Do a search and you'll find that I've had nothing but good things to say about the Vette... and I've had a LOT of conversations about it. You'll find the same thing if you search for skicrush's posts on it.

And do me a favor. If you have more to say, edit your last post. Don't double post.


M
 
Brought my old pontiac thread up to the top--it shares a lot of ideas with this thread. Maybe some of the angrier new people around here should read a little background on where we're all coming from.
 
M-Spec not sure what you mean about double posting, so let me know about that.
anywho if your really check it out, you'll see that pontiacs (all that have a twin with chevy) are always a little faster not much but a little why? because--we dont know. on such I state that the new cobalt is whooping up In SCCA showroom stock--so much in fact theygot bumped up in the class alongside BMW 3 series & such company & the only thing that the drivers of these colbalts get is now instead of being the base model with a 145HP ecotec they get to use the supercharged ones.
with that said---Pontiacs are always a little faster than chevy's? you may have never heard of this but Motor Trend Noticed with Camaro's & Firebird's & likewise with other cars
How does this relate to Pontiac? Sunfire=Cobalt--Same Engine & trans. Sunfire is a bit faster Therefore if People were smarter & used Sunfire's over Cobalts, they would do even better. my point? Pontiac has a great little car in the Sunfire as well--please don't get me started on what GT4 did to the GXP concept---anyway the problem here is people have dubbed sunfire's girls cars & people just think they suck as well, even though the reality is that they are almost identical to cavaliers & cobalts alike & clearly they can beat other cars in their class--i.e. civics & such. so badly in fact that they have been banned from that class.
if you don't like Pontiac, good for you But don't judge all of the cars they make due to poor (or lack) of advertising.
P.S. I've said before I have a 98' Grand Am::No, it's not the best car in the world--Yes It has body roll but it still does the magic of handling well with over-understeer as a minimal & with 150HP also runs a 15.8 @ 88 in the 1/4 mile which if you compare to imports & likewise cars is pretty darned competitive--also-dual cone Factory speakers & overall great factory stereo with CD & 5-band Equalizer to better than Any imports I've Including but not limited to: 2002 Civic - 2003 Civic SI - 2003 Nissan 350Z - 1996 (Ibelieve) Mitsubishi Mirage - 1995 Dodge Neon - 1996 Dodge Stratus - 1998 Civic - 2005 Hyundai - 2000 Eclipse - 1995 Eclipse - 1995 MX-3 - 2003 Focus w/out subwoofer was about par.
anyway, good night & good luck
 
Sunfire = Caviler, Sunfires died out they are no longer with us. Cobalt = Ion, for the love of GOD don't compare the Sunfire to a Cobalt.
 
Good night? Is that just a turn of phrase. or ar you really going to sleep? Do yuo really live here in America?

M-Spec means you should edit your post if you want to add something before anyone has replied instead of double posting.
 
i'm not saying for sure that sunfires didnt die out--maybe they did but, if you think sunfires--cavaliers are so much different you should check out the same exact trans. & engine in them. 2nd off in 2005, sunfires & cobalts were made--both also Grand Ams & G6's--both
you say it like there is a HUGE diff. between the two--I however, am in the dark so please enlighten me. P.S.--I know the chassis if diff-- but me & my brother own two cars that are living proof that with all the same parts on diff chassis--cars are remarkably similar
 
The Sunfire was a Cavalier and vise versa, they both died together. They were J-bodies and they have nothing to do with the Cobalt, Ion, Pursuit, HHR's Delta Body platform. But the J-body cars were all the same freakin thing, same motors, same trans, same everything except most of the body panels. The Delta cars are the same way, just a lot better.

Plus there is no way the Cavalier was ever on the Delta platform, the Ion was the first to have it, then came the Cobalt in 2005 and the HHR in 2006. This platform will stay intact but in 2008 or 2009 there will be a simliar sized AWD platform the new SS/Redline will be based on.

Whats the difference between the Cobalt/Pursuit (same f'in car except the Pursuit is a Canadian Pontiac) and the Cavalier? A lot, its an entirely new platform the cars are based on. Plus the Cobalts have an optional 2.0L Supercharged motor.

The G6 was not on the Grand Am's platform either. The Grand Am was an N-body, while the G6 is now on the Epsilon platform which is the same thing as a Malibu, Saab 93, Caddy BLS, Saturn Aura.

The two platforms are nothing a like what so ever. In fact the new platforms for GM are way better then the old ones ever were. And I promise you if you try to put Cavalier parts on a Cobalt, its not going to work.
 
I suppose you believe the same with the 2.4 & 2.3 Quad 4's?
& the Cobalt's & Cavaliers----nothing you can say will change the standard, 2.2L 145hp engine & 5-Speed trans being the Exact same
 
The 2.2L L61 is the same block in both cars, however the 2.2L in the Delta platform puts out 145hp and 155 lb.ft., while the J-body put out 140hp and 150 lb.ft. So they are slightly different, plus if I'm not mistaken the engines are 180 degrees opposite of one another.

But the Delta also gets a LE5 2.4L VVT engine that puts out 171hp and 162lb.ft.

the Cobalt SS/ Ion Redline get the 2.0L LSJ puts out 205hp at 200lb. ft. Once again if I'm not mistaken this made its debute in the Redline.

...and the only reason I got all the information down is because I work for GM :D, but I did have to look up the engine codes.
 
A. The 5-hp Diff Is Because They Raised Compression From 9.5 To 10.0
B. The 171 Hp 2.4l Is A New Version Of A Quad 4--gm Has Admitted This Quietly.
C. The Intake Is Up Front On Both If Im Not Mistaken-either Way Still Same Motor
D. The Ss Has A Lowered Compression Of 9.5---now The Same As Old Ecotec.
Gm's Been Doing This For Years--it's Cheap & Effective There's A Reason They Got To Be The Biggest Car Industry In The World & It Will Very Likely Stay That Way
 
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