Having followed the discussion between
@chebuzdatel and
@Famine, I think we can all agree on some things:
- the placement of the Toyota GT-One '99 in Gr. 2 (as a lower class) compared to its possible placement in Gr. 1 is correct, indisputable. I gave a simple example a few hours ago; in my garage I have a Porsche 919 tuned roughly like a 963 LMDh, therefore with 1,048 kgs of weight x 600 hp (the engine tuning for the 919 in Gran Turismo 7 doesn't allow to have more power), so I'm talking about a car about 150 kgs heavier than the GT-One and with the same power, considering that its stock power of over 760 hp isn't realistic, perhaps that is the power of the unrestricted engine, but many specialized websites usually indicate a maximum power of around 600 hp for the GT-One '99. Well, at Le Mans with the Porsche I did 3:25.xxx and with the Toyota GT-One 3:39.xxx, we're talking about a 14 second difference, there's enough to talk about two different categories. And even if the comparison had been between the GT-One and completely stock Gr. 1 cars, it wouldn't have gone much differently: the LMP1-Hs have the hybrid advantage, the same goes for the only real HyperCar present (the Toyota GR010), which however is heavier, then there are LMP1s like the Peugeot 908 which, being turbodiesel with massive torque and in any case with 700 hp of power, go very fast. So, like already said, the GT-One couldn't go in Gr. 1;
- having said that, whether the comparison with Mercedes CLK LM and McLaren F1 GTR is not on par is another matter, BUT it is a matter spoiled by a basic error (sorry chebuzdatel): the Toyota GT-One '99 is NOT a GT1, it is an LMGTP, and despite the aesthetic similarity it's simply another kind of beast. It's not just a question of engine power: there is more refined aerodynamics and a little less weight (24 kg to be exact) compared to the proper GT1 version, the '98 one. So, even by reducing the power to 600 hp the car would have more PP than the others two. To have a somewhat equal comparison you also need to add 24 kgs of ballast, and roughly replicate the '98 version. In fact, in this way the PPs drop to around 814;
- the comparison with the GT500 makes no sense because, although Gran Turismo places them in Gr. 2 together with cars like the Toyota GT-One, this happens simply because the division into the various groups isn't done well and makes the groups themselves too messed up. There is no point in denying it, it's a problem that we have encountered in all groups and that PD should solve: we have a Gr. 1 in which modern prototypes, Gr. C cars, VGT Gr. 1 coexist; a Gr. 2 in which GT500s and prototypes from the late 90s coexist; a Gr. 3 in which the GT3s coexist together with the GT500s of the 90s, with a car capable of obtaining the overall victory at the 24 Hours of Le Mans (the Ueno Clinic McLaren F1) and even with a Gr. 5 from the 80s; and finally a Gr. 4 which is truly a "mixed fry" of FF, FR, MR, AWD cars, proper GT4 cars, silhouette cars and TCR-like cars. It's a mess. The solution would be to divide the cars differently to have more balanced groups, but I fear that won't happen before GT8 (and maybe not even).
Forgive me for the very long message but I think that sometimes certain discussions are quite senseless because, beyond what happens in the game, real life is another matter. It makes no sense to compare a '99 LMGTP with a 2016 GT500. Unfortunately, the game has the various groups that are really badly organised, but we shouldn't be influenced by this. Where the game goes wrong, we must be able to recognize it and if possible correct it. It's also the reason why so many of us have appreciated custom races so much: because this way we can recreate more realistic racing, more similar to the real counterparts.
You are not entirely right, we need to compare technical characteristics either in the game or in real life, I start from the characteristics of cars in real life. So, in real life the performance of the GT-One you fear is not even close to the performance of the LMP1, I'll explain why..
1 - Firstly; According to estimates from specialized publications and resources such as "mulsannescorner" and "racecar-engineering", lmGTP and LMP cars of the late 90s and early 00s had an approximate aerodynamic ratio of 3/1, this indicates a downforce of about ~900kg and is logical that with the same regulations, these indicators were approximately similar for all participants, no matter GT-One or CLR or R391. Here's a short clip from the MC:
"In general, the cars of this era were pretty downforce-light to start, especially in Le Mans configuration. Looking at data for the open top Nissan R391 LMP900, this is a car with between 2000-2500 lbs of downforce at 200 mph.Intriguingly, according to Mercedes-Benz, in a post-warm up crash press release, attempting to reassure that their cars were viable for the race, indicated that the dive planes they would be using in the race added as much as 25% more front downforce. Assuming a 45/55 split, 2000 lbs total, 900 lbs front, 25% gains you 225 lbs of downforce and is certainly within reason. Rebalanced to 45/55, and you've added as much as 500 lbs to total downforce. But ultimately it goes back to one thing, how absolutely little aerodynamic downforce the cars that were racing during this era had."
And this with a weight of about 900 kg, and a power of about 600 hp, adjusted for the handling characteristics of the engine, from this we can easily conclude about the effectiveness of LMP-GTP of those years. This is the first.
2 - Second, the LMP1 cars I was talking about in my comparison were the 2014 R18 and 2011 R18 and Toyota GR010. The aerodynamic quality of LMP1 cars, and specifically the R18 MY11, according to the above-described specialist engineers RE and MC, was no less than in the ratio 5:1, this is an abyss compared to the GT-ONe, and this against the backdrop of similar power and weight, with better engine controllability in the R18 , a more advanced gearbox, etc., there’s nothing even to discuss here, the LMP1 prototype will simply destroy the TS020’s lap time, no matter whether it was ’98 or ’99 (after all, these are basically the same cars, just with different EoT tolerances). It makes no sense to compare the LMP1 prototypes of 2014 and later years with the TS020; this is the level of Renault Logan and AM Valkyrie.
3-Third, speaking about comparing the latest generation GT500 with LMP1 prototypes, just look at Sam Collins’s reviews on PE, it is clearly stated that class 1 GT500s go at the pace of private LMP1s of recent years, and sometimes even caught the time of factory LMP1 hybrids on one lap, and taking into account the above performance difference between the TS020 lmgtp and LMP1, I think there is no point in hoping that the TS020 will be faster than the modern Class1 GT500.Just for reference, modern GT500s generate more downforce than GT1-LMGTP prototypes, albeit with a little more air drag. According to manufacturers, a class 1 GT500 car has ~1200kg of downforce at a speed of 200kmh, the internal combustion engine power of modern GT500s is around ~700hp and this with a fuel consumption of 95kg/h, the GT500 uses purely racing engines with technologies equal to Formula 1 (SPCCI, TJI and etc.), and modification of the engine is allowed 2 times during the season, this is unthinkable for modern motorsport. The base weight of the GT500 without taking into account the “ballast of success” is equal to 1020 kg, combined with impressive downforce, advanced and powerful engines and tire wars, where tires are specially prepared not just for each specific racing team and track, these cars become very fast, and despite GTA's ongoing 3-year cycle of measures to reduce the speed of the GT500, these cars are still the fastest "sports cars" on the planet, including faster than the current LMH and LMDH, which, having an advantage in top speed, cannot beat the GT500 cars in lap time on the Fuji track with its huge straight, you can imagine what a difference it will be on a track like Suzuka where cornering speed is even more important than on Fuji... And yet the GT500 class 1 cars in GT7 are not next to LMP1 but next to CLK-LM and TS020, that's the whole paradox...
