Gran Turismo Sport Cross Over To A Real Simulator To Satisfy The Wheel Market

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429
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United States
Just so you know, qualifying is irrelevant. You're matched on SR, then grouped by DR - the game finds all the players it can on SR 95-99, and places them together in lobbies according to their DR, starting with the highest. Then it moves down to the next SR bracket and does it again. It keeps doing that until it's run out of players.

Your qualifying time makes absolutely no difference to this process.
No disrespect, My participation in GTS is the Three Daily racing at this time. Qualifying time has setup the starting line up in every race I participated in and most of my kart racing in real life. The only time a qualifying time may not setup a starting grid , is when Heats with a Main Event to determine a winner.
 

Groundfish

(Banned)
4,363
United States
United States
If you want to tune, just play iRacing, Forza 7, ACC, etc. All with the same problem that you can invest many hours refining your tune and still get trashed or just download, or in cases like iRacing or ACC, buy your tunes. But just going away from those hardcore sims tuning just doesn't do Forza 7 a favor. And it would be the same in GTS/GT7. Just the wrong type of game with the simcade base to just do a quick 1-2 hour session after work. Like many people said before the few events with individual setups allowed in GTS were just bad.
Tuning would ruin Sport. The entire strength of GTS is the fact you can switch on and be racing online almost immediately with a car capable of worlds best time.
Take that away and imo no one would play.
 
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275
France
Concarneau
Lomic2
Qualifying time has setup the starting line up in every race I participated in
Of course but I think you missed Famine's point, qualifying does not determine the players who will enter the same race as you. It affects how the grid will be set up with those selected players.
 
618
United Kingdom
Northern Ireland
GTRP_mirial
I like to say many thanks to PD for turning away many and I mean of good people because of no tuning in GTS online, and PD calls it the Real Driving Simulator which is not. If GT7 have a seasonal type races like it was for online racing for GT6, then I have no problem in that.
No tuning in any events online is not a Real Driving Simulator.

So to go off topic a bit @Redneckchef
Those I know who were good at tuning using some car knowledge, feel and trial & error were at the top of their game driving as well and seem to have gone elsewhere or stopped.

If you look at the the Gr.3 cars with stock settings, most have comical amounts of understeer and the cars that are actually close to neutral are the NSX and the 458, but these two cars have been pegged back too much.

Anyone with a modicum of interest in cars and driving would instantly realise this. It's just unheard of for wannbe racing drivers and car people to want understeer and to prohibit sliding. Just imagine if they applied the same regulations for the D1 drifters in the interests of not alienating beginners....

If all Gr.3 cars and all the other racing car classes were close to a true neutrality that reflected reality, then I'd be ok with stock settings.

From some discussions, I think why many who are front runners are content with the status quo is because they probably realise making the cars restrictive in terms of rotation and balance, that the gaps are closer which increase their chances of winning.
 
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4,162
Sweden
Ulricehamn
Anyone with a modicum of interest in cars and driving would instantly realise this.
Well, I an 57 year old, mechanic and has been dabbling with cars, bikes and mopeds since I was around 10.
And I don't understand the never ending talk about understeering in gr 3.
Because it's "Picnic". Problem in chair, not in car.
They oversteer when you over drive them.
Before the tire update they where not much like real cars in that remark, but the update made them more realistic.
 

Groundfish

(Banned)
4,363
United States
United States
Man the bs is getting thick in here.
The reason a lot more experienced racers do not participate in sport mode is the penalty system.
The penalty system (which includes sr rating) determines driving standards.
Even at the highest achievable safety rating GTS is bumper cars side swipes punts and dives galore.
Experienced racers don’t bother much or if they do it will be FIA only.
On NA I have personally kinda stopped participating because I’m tired of getting rammed.
The cars handling has nothing to do with why lots of people avoid sport mode.

also re understeer learn to trail brake
 
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226
Germany
1 h from Nürburg
toastet
If all Gr.3 cars and all the other racing car classes were close to a true neutrality that reflected reality, then I'd be ok with stock settings.
The reality in a GT3 and GT4 car is undeersteer. These car classes are customer classes designed for gentlemen drivers and amateurs in the first place. And even a pro can't drive a 24h race in a oversteery car without high chances of crashing it in the middle of the night. You can't put non professionals in 500-600 hp racing cars for 5-6-7-800.000 $ which are oversteering or even are more on the neutral side. These modern racecars are a easy to drive up to certain point. But even on the limit they aren't beasts who will kill you like racecars up to the 2000s. I worked for a raceteam in the early to mid 2010s and had the chance to drive a Merc SLS GT3 and Porsche GT3-R at Nürburgring GP. Our most oversteery racecar in our shop was our FWD Audi TT-RS (which would be somewhere between GT4 and TCR class today). The way nearly everybody is able to drive quick in the Grp. 3 cars in GTS after 15 minutes is way closer to the reality than iRacing where it's even hard to keep a Miata on track after 2 hours of training.
 

fordlaser

Premium
7,489
Australia
Adelaide
fordlaser777
Fixed setups are the best compromise for close racing in a skill based matchmaking system.
You can have close racing with open settings, and the skill would be in the tuning part, and also your driving. With fixed settings there is only one skill, and people like me and many others who like tuning will not bother with Sport Mode races, because the tuning and the skill is not in them. This is why the GTS tuning forum is very much like a ghost town now, because of lack of online racing.

If PD continues with fixed setups like it is now with Sport Mode type races for GT7, it's going to be the same as it is in the GTS tuning now.
 
20,866
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
and the skill would be in the tuning part
Which isn't the skill of a racing driver. They will certainly know what they want from a car in terms of how it drives and feels and a rare handful do know the ins and outs of suspension geometry and such but the vast majority do not, and they aren't the ones with the spanners making the adjustments.

PD evidently want GT FIA races to be solely a test of driver/racing skill. Tuning is a different skill set.

What they could do as a trade off is something like what SMS did with Project CARS 2, where you tell the game how you like the car to feel or where you feel it's off and based on your answers it switches to another, different default setup. So they would need to make a handful of default tunes for each car, which would be a lot of work, unless they could manage to automate a setup for each car in each style.
 
2,895
Canada
Canada
Kaizen-Teian
Tuning would be interesting depending on the situation.

In real life I believe it's exciting because they tune for months, only race a few times. In GT Daily Races it would just end up copying each other each week. But for a FIA Final, one shot event type situation it would be an extra element of depth and competition.
 

fordlaser

Premium
7,489
Australia
Adelaide
fordlaser777
Which isn't the skill of a racing driver. They will certainly know what they want from a car in terms of how it drives and feels and a rare handful do know the ins and outs of suspension geometry and such but the vast majority do not, and they aren't the ones with the spanners making the adjustments.

PD evidently want GT FIA races to be solely a test of driver/racing skill. Tuning is a different skill set.

What they could do as a trade off is something like what SMS did with Project CARS 2, where you tell the game how you like the car to feel or where you feel it's off and based on your answers it switches to another, different default setup. So they would need to make a handful of default tunes for each car, which would be a lot of work, unless they could manage to automate a setup for each car in each style.
If PD wants to go down that path of having fixed setups for online racing for GT7, well it's going to kill of tuning in that game. Just take a look at the GTS tuning forum now, and that tell you there is a problem with online racing.
Who knows what PD got for us for online racing for GT7, but lets hope there is going to be more tuning online than it was in GTS.
 
429
United States
United States
Of course but I think you missed Famine's point, qualifying does not determine the players who will enter the same race as you. It affects how the grid will be set up with those selected players.
Are you saying when I enter a daily race with a 1/2 second behind the ten best qualifying times of day for the A , B, or C race . there will be no mix of the alphabet driver in my race ?
 

Groundfish

(Banned)
4,363
United States
United States
n real life I believe it's exciting because they tune for months, only race a few times. In GT Daily Races it would just end up copying each other each week.
I think so. Right now most players only choose the car that’s got the most top ten.
In order to make it fair and add tuning they would have to show the meta tune in the top ten.
They could have a button to clone it onto your car.
Lol it would only add clicks in the end, not depth to the game.
ust take a look at the GTS tuning forum now, and that tell you there is a problem with online racing.
I guess the forums dead.
I mean too, anymore most younger people couldn’t tell a crescent wrench from a channel lock what makes you think any of them want to bother messing around with a cars video game settings? Adding tuning to daily races would just mean picking the META car then copying a META tune off the top ten.
It wouldn’t be adding tuning per se it would only take more clicks to enter an online race.
I just think too, it takes a lot of effort to become a good competent quick sim driver, in fact that effort alone takes up waay more time than 99 percent of people have.
To me it’s not a skill to tune it’s just tons of hours to find ways to break the game-booooorrrrriiinnnggg.
I think livery editor is a far better feature than any tuning and I think a lot who maybe used to like tuning switched to livery creation.
Livery creation in GTS is epic. Shame they don’t allow liveries more in one make events-maybe they fear cheating somehow?
It’s best the way GTS does it. It’s the most fair way possible. Everyone knows the cars are equal in every way.
No exploits. No losing to some kid with a cheat code to make his car faster.

edit you just gotta watch out for those alphabet drivers!
They are dirty!

edit edit round here lo206 kart racing is kinda popular
The engines are factory sealed-they want close fair racing not people buying victory with better equipment.
 
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2,198
New Zealand
New Plymouth
Are you saying when I enter a daily race with a 1/2 second behind the ten best qualifying times of day for the A , B, or C race . there will be no mix of the alphabet driver in my race ?
Ok, we will try this again. Here is the order of how it sorts your grid for racing.
1) your SR. Provided there are enough people entering that time slot they group 90-99 first, then 80-90. Once you drop below 85 SR then it starts to get hazy as they grab whomever they can below 90 SR to fill the grid. I entered a race yesterday that had me at 85 SR, so still S, but no one else was above SR B.
2) then is starts looking into DR bands, trying to place you with drivers who have a similar Driver Rating or within a band of DR close to your rating.
3) now it gets sorted by your qualifying time.

This is why your qualifying time often remains close to those near you in your race. If you are hitting close to the "average" qualifying speed for your DR you will see a lot of similar times. Similarly if you are well off the pace you will be at the back. This happens to me when I get into a race because I find it fun, but I'm way slower than drivers at similar DR levels. I'll be at the back of a grid with a time much slower than everyone else. And a much bigger gap than you would expect with the matching system. This is also how I can enter with no qualifying time and be in a grid of DR A drivers rather than with a lot DR D drivers who didnt qualify.

Some of this breaks down when they are trying to match drivers in very off-peak times or at low SR levels.

Qualifying times help, and the faster you can be relative to your DR the better starting spots you get, but it is the last thing the system looks at when matching.
 
20,866
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
If PD wants to go down that path of having fixed setups for online racing for GT7, well it's going to kill of tuning in that game. Just take a look at the GTS tuning forum now, and that tell you there is a problem with online racing.
Who knows what PD got for us for online racing for GT7, but lets hope there is going to be more tuning online than it was in GTS.
What's wrong with tuning for racing in lobbies, or organised race series?

Also, why does there need to be tuning online anyway? Clearly plenty of people play online now without tuning, I hardly think the numbers would swell greatly with tuning. Quite the opposite. So I'm not sure where the problem is, other than with the people who desperately want tuning.
 
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MaxAttack

TPC's Resident Mad Bloke
Premium
1,946
United Kingdom
Isle of Wight, UK
What's wrong with tuning for racing in lobbies, or organised race series?
Why, you don't get your ego stroked with a nice big A by your name for winning those! How will anyone know you're the dogs knackers?
 
2,810
United States
Theresa, Wisconsin
edit edit round here lo206 kart racing is kinda popular
The engines are factory sealed-they want close fair racing not people buying victory with better equipment.
Thats the beauty of many of the Karting series, spec engines and the driver and/or crew has to adjust (read tune) to make the kart fast. When my kids were kart racing all of the money we saved on engines went into other ways to find speed. Every single time before the karts went on track I had them on my scales to set corner weights exactly how we felt they needed to be set for conditions. I was fortunate enough to have a set of digital ace car scales I used for my business and then made a platform that wasn't affected by uneven ground so we could set them up everywhere. So it's not like there isn't tuning in a spec series, it's just that you focused on tuning different areas.
 
700
United Kingdom
United Kingdom

Groundfish

(Banned)
4,363
United States
United States
Thats the beauty of many of the Karting series, spec engines and the driver and/or crew has to adjust (read tune) to make the kart fast. When my kids were kart racing all of the money we saved on engines went into other ways to find speed. Every single time before the karts went on track I had them on my scales to set corner weights exactly how we felt they needed to be set for conditions. I was fortunate enough to have a set of digital ace car scales I used for my business and then made a platform that wasn't affected by uneven ground so we could set them up everywhere. So it's not like there isn't tuning in a spec series, it's just that you focused on tuning different areas.
I’m pointing out that in a spec series the idea is that the vehicles used are very similar. I’m not denying the reality that real racing is all about technical expertise at all.
I just think in an online game or simulation in order to make the competition fair and get good participation tuning is best left totally out of the equation. Especially considering the fact that there’s no game out there that tuning in game matches real world.
So, tuning in games is unrealistic, and it’s complicated, and it takes trial and error time to perform, how many people have time to invest in that side of it? 99 percent of people like to race, not adjust settings.
You can have great tire model great physics everything and really you don’t need the tuning aspect at all imo to have a good sim game that will get player numbers.
Time of day and dynamic weather are way way way more important than adjustable car settings.
I’m well aware that racing is all about tech-but it’s just not good for online racing. The simulation quality isn’t good enough.
I think in GT7 they are going to have a section for bolt on things like fart can exhaust etc.
Seeing the direction GT7 looks to be going pushed me to buy pc. The target market seems to be teenagers.
The UI looks so childish compared to gts.
Now, I’m having a hard time trying to get interested in gts again, if it required tuning I’d sell ps4.
As it is NOWAY I’d ever buy ps5.
Imo if people want hardcore tuning etc just go iracing, it’s not what GTS is for.
I’ve loved GTS and played so so much online-kinda sad to see my hours dwindle. I just get more from other titles anymore and adding tuning would be the end of gt for me.
I have played through the entire gamut of all levels of gts online.
Tuning is a silly idea, the biggest thing is stopping the ramming.
 
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618
United Kingdom
Northern Ireland
GTRP_mirial
The reality in a GT3 and GT4 car is undeersteer. These car classes are customer classes designed for gentlemen drivers and amateurs in the first place. And even a pro can't drive a 24h race in a oversteery car without high chances of crashing it in the middle of the night. You can't put non professionals in 500-600 hp racing cars for 5-6-7-800.000 $ which are oversteering or even are more on the neutral side. These modern racecars are a easy to drive up to certain point. But even on the limit they aren't beasts who will kill you like racecars up to the 2000s. I worked for a raceteam in the early to mid 2010s and had the chance to drive a Merc SLS GT3 and Porsche GT3-R at Nürburgring GP. Our most oversteery racecar in our shop was our FWD Audi TT-RS (which would be somewhere between GT4 and TCR class today). The way nearly everybody is able to drive quick in the Grp. 3 cars in GTS after 15 minutes is way closer to the reality than iRacing where it's even hard to keep a Miata on track after 2 hours of training.
I agree with what you're saying, but almost all cars from Gr.3 upwards understeer too much; it really is understeer literally as illustrated in the text books where the front slides out more than the rear. I don't believe driving wise, you develop much because you are so limited driving style wise.

If you know what you're doing, you can set a car up to understeer but where the rear actually slides more than the front which still allows you to take an earlier turn in and get on the power early. Basically it requires a positive rake with a stiff rear end so that the front still slides, but less than the rear. I've seen it done consistently with RWD R/C buggies (because they are a true handful), real touring cars and it has even worked in GT in the past. It makes are car safe, yet you still get the driving satisfaction because it still has many of the qualities of a car that oversteers without the danger.
 
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429
United States
United States
I guess this is my fault I assumed you would know I am not a gamer. I do not use GTS as a game I use GTS as a cheap Simulator racing platform for my Simulator Rig. I do not think of a race online as a lobby of rooms for gamers. I think of it as competition between real drivers in a online race . If this hurts your feeling so be it.
 

Famine

GTP Editor, GTPEDIA Author
Administrator
73,670
United Kingdom
Rule 12
GTP_Famine
I guess this is my fault I assumed you would know I am not a gamer. I do not use GTS as a game I use GTS as a cheap Simulator racing platform for my Simulator Rig. I do not think of a race online as a lobby of rooms for gamers. I think of it as competition between real drivers in a online race .
Everyone who's been paying any attention to this thread knows this. For some reason you object to the concept that you're playing a racing game on a games console using a gaming controller...
If this hurts your feeling so be it.
Quite.
 
2,198
New Zealand
New Plymouth
I guess this is my fault I assumed you would know I am not a gamer. I do not use GTS as a game I use GTS as a cheap Simulator racing platform for my Simulator Rig. I do not think of a race online as a lobby of rooms for gamers. I think of it as competition between real drivers in a online race . If this hurts your feeling so be it.
Your opinion of yourself and how you play is fine and doesnt bother me in the slightest. As long as you enjoy the game and aren't ruining it for others. That's where I get upset. You want to restrict parts of the game to people based on whether they spend large amounts of money on specialist equipment. That's where we differ. If you can handle the cars and race clean input method shouldn't matter. Especially as I'm using an input method that is proven to be a handicap over longer races.
 
429
United States
United States
Everyone who's been paying any attention to this thread knows this. For some reason you object to the concept that you're playing a racing game on a games console using a gaming controller...

Quite.
Tell PD to take the “Real Simulator “ out of their tag line of this game. So you can win the debate of this thread.
 
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