Green Areas - grey area!

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turnupdaheat
The following conversation can be found over on the Eutechnyx site:

Eutechnyx: "Lap times will be invalid if a player puts all 4 wheels off what is considered the track. Curbs and green run off areas are considered valid parts of the track. This amendment will be in patch V1.2."

AlanG: "So I presume that's strictly just the green/asphalt run-off areas, and not the apex of some corners? (The chicane at Misano for example; the green part should not be part of the track. Another example, Monza turn 1; the green apex area is not part of the track)"

Eutechnyx: "Each track has a defined area which is considered a valid driving surface. For instance any grass of gravel surface is invalid. The "green" areas are valid and we have kept this consistent throughout the game. The point of this change is that it will eliminate 99% of the corner cutting exploits in the game."

Strictly speaking, Alan is right to presume that the green area behind the apexes of the chicane should not be areas that you can place all 4 wheels within but Dave is saying that Eutechnyx see this differently and cars will not be penalised for doing so.

Now, for the purposes of this discussion let's focus on Monza and, in particular, one the most contentious pieces of track in the whole game. I am, of course, talking about the infamous first chicane, Variante del Rettifilo. I doubt there is anyone on here who can honestly say that they have never gone through this chicane with all 4 wheels in the green area.

Is it time to cut out the dilema, accept how Eutechnyx are viewing it and agree that these green areas are valid parts of the track?
 
I don't think the first chicane at Monza is so widely disputed in the sense that there are curbs lying across this run-off area. It's pretty clear you're not supposed to drive across them. That's the way it was in Ferrari Challenge as well but people used to take massive advantage of this. In Supercar Challenge they've made it rather obvious that it's not acceptable to cut through this area and there is a rather sizable penalty zone at this chicane already right now. You can't drive through it without getting penalty. Same goes for the final chicane at Montreal. So I don't think it's completely clear cut.
 
Jeff, but what they did different from FC to SCC is that the "green areas" have become smaller. In any case, green areas in SCC don't penalize you.
 
Well, let's say rather than the green areas becoming smaller, the penalty zones have become larger. What I don't like, and perhaps this was Del's point, is that it's difficult to tell visually what is or isn't acceptable. Push too far and you get hit with a penalty. But drawing that fine line between the ideal racing line (judiciously riding the curbs) and going "too far" and being hit with a penalty is difficult to judge and something that takes experience through experimentation.
 
jjaisli
Well, let's say rather than the green areas becoming smaller, the penalty zones have become larger. What I don't like, and perhaps this was Del's point, is that it's difficult to tell visually what is or isn't acceptable. Push too far and you get hit with a penalty. But drawing that fine line between the ideal racing line (judiciously riding the curbs) and going "too far" and being hit with a penalty is difficult to judge and something that takes experience through experimentation.
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Again, I don't think you are right. If you stay inside the green area you are ok, if you place a wheel outside of it (in most corners and especially chicanes) you get a penalty.

Unless you are talking about Paul Ricard. In that track it's a bittrickier to understand wher the line is drawn, because there are no green areas.
 
Yeah Jeff, I agree that from purist POV it's clear that your not supposed to cross them but my question arises from the fact that Eutechnyx are stating that it is acceptable to drive across them. Certainly, the Monza chicanes in SCC are less forgiving than they were in FC but it is still possible to gain some advantage by straightlining them and crossing those rumble strips.

I think, by comparison, the Montreal chicane is very clearcut and certainly picked up the penalties to prove it!!
 
Yeah but guys, if you drive over the rumble strips at Monza, you'll get a penalty too, no? Or am I wrong here?
 
No you don't and the problem of cutting that chicane still exists albeit to a lesser extent than it did with Ferrari Challenge.
 
jjaisli
Yeah but guys, if you drive over the rumble strips at Monza, you'll get a penalty too, no? Or am I wrong here?
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I believe you'll get the penalty only it you out all 4 wheels on those rumble strips. Just 2 won't get you penalized (although I'm not 100% sure).

I think that the rule should be the mandatory 2 wheels (at least) always in track surface, and by track surface I'd consider only the track (limited by the two white paralel lines) and curbs. Run-off areas, either painted green, tarmac colour, blue, pink w/ yellow daisies, etc... shouldn't be part of the track.

I suppose this thread is motivated because of my previous post on the 365GTB event; I only hope that on the patch situations like the one mentioned there are properly penalized, because that's far beyond using the green run-off areas that are mentioned by Eutechnikx.
 
Hi Bullie, the point of this thread differs from the point you raised which focuses on drivers taking a wide line off the track at the final corner at Hockenheim in order to gain speed onto the start/finish straight. The same thing often happens at Auto Club Speedway.

What Eutechnyx are saying is that in those cases the laptime will be invalidated as all 4 wheels have gone off what they consider are valid parts of the track. However, Dave says the following: "The "green" areas are valid and we have kept this consistent throughout the game" and the way he answered Alan's question indicates to me that they are saying that is is ok to cut across the green areas placed at the apex as well as the run-off.
 
turnupdaheat
Hi Bullie, the point of this thread differs from the point you raised which focuses on drivers taking a wide line off the track at the final corner at Hockenheim in order to gain speed onto the start/finish straight. The same thing often happens at Auto Club Speedway.

What Eutechnyx are saying is that in those cases the laptime will be invalidated as all 4 wheels have gone off what they consider are valid parts of the track. However, Dave says the following: "The "green" areas are valid and we have kept this consistent throughout the game" and the way he answered Alan's question indicates to me that they are saying that is is ok to cut across the green areas placed at the apex as well as the run-off.
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Hi

Invalidating the lap times would work only if we are talking about time trials. In a race, not counting the lap time wouldn't revert the advantage gained by whoever had gone taking a wide line at the corner (and it's not only on the final turn in hockenheim, Mobil 1 also happens the same). I believe that a 5 sec. penalty would be needed (minimum), since there's no possibility of a drive through (as far as I believe)
 
turnupdaheat
Is it time to cut out the dilema, accept how Eutechnyx are viewing it and agree that these green areas are valid parts of the track?
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These guys/girls don't know what they're doing. They're creating new essential requirements even after the damn game is released.

Monza turn-1: The problem I have with cutting this corner is that there are large speed-bumps. The racing line through this shortcut dictates the speed through the corner, and in this case it is high enough to throw every car off the ground. At this stage, you're having to judge how the car will take-off, control the landing of the car, how it will slide upon landing, judge how long the car will travel with less than 4 wheels on track etc - This is gone beyond closed-circuit racing - this is Off Road, and I have a problem with that, because this game is not supposed to be that dicipline.

Apart from that, it's not part of the track! They've gone to great lengths down the years trying to stop cars getting too far over the kerbs on these Monza chicanes.
 
Alan_G
These guys/girls don't know what they're doing. They're creating new essential requirements even after the damn game is released.

Monza turn-1: The problem I have with cutting this corner is that there are large speed-bumps. The racing line through this shortcut dictates the speed through the corner, and in this case it is high enough to throw every car off the ground. At this stage, you're having to judge how the car will take-off, control the landing of the car, how it will slide upon landing, judge how long the car will travel with less than 4 wheels on track etc - This is gone beyond closed-circuit racing - this is Off Road, and I have a problem with that, because this game is not supposed to be that dicipline.

Apart from that, it's not part of the track! They've gone to great lengths down the years trying to stop cars getting too far over the kerbs on these Monza chicanes.
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I think this would be a pretty much easy thing to solve:

- Anything else than curbs and the tarmac between the two parallel white lines is considered OFF-TRACK

- The must have PERMANENTLY at least two wheels inside the track's limits
 
Alan, while I understand your sentiment I think you are taking it too far by describing it as Off Road!

In reality, the Monza chicanes have been in place since the 1970's and it is true that they have gone to great lengths over the years trying to stop cars going too far over the kerbs. Despite all these efforts, over 30 years later, the problem still continues simply because drivers will always push to find the absolute fastest line and if that means cutting the chicanes they will do it. This year the F1 authorities relented a bit and the rule was that you were allowed cut the chicane up to a maximum of 3 times before you were penalised during the Italian GP!

The point here is that if the F1 authorities with all their Stewards and TV coverage are finding it difficult to police this issue what chance do we have in our races.

Bullie, the rules you state are good and true but they don't solve the problem. The issue is that the developer is stating that those rules don't apply to the green areas and that they consider them valid parts of the track. So you are going to find that some drivers, or groups of drivers, will have one rule about this issue and others will be working from a different rule book!
 
turnupdaheat
Alan, while I understand your sentiment I think you are taking it too far by describing it as Off Road!

In reality, the Monza chicanes have been in place since the 1970's and it is true that they have gone to great lengths over the years trying to stop cars going too far over the kerbs. Despite all these efforts, over 30 years later, the problem still continues simply because drivers will always push to find the absolute fastest line and if that means cutting the chicanes they will do it. This year the F1 authorities relented a bit and the rule was that you were allowed cut the chicane up to a maximum of 3 times before you were penalised during the Italian GP!

The point here is that if the F1 authorities with all their Stewards and TV coverage are finding it difficult to police this issue what chance do we have in our races.

Bullie, the rules you state are good and true but they don't solve the problem. The issue is that the developer is stating that those rules don't apply to the green areas and that they consider them valid parts of the track. So you are going to find that some drivers, or groups of drivers, will have one rule about this issue and others will be working from a different rule book!
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If the game developers want to consider the green run-off areas as track that's ok - although this shouldn't then be call as a 'sim', but instead a 'simmishly-like-wanna-be-thing'...
 
It happens:

IMG_0247.jpg
 
Here you have it :)

picture.php



But this is entirely legal and accepted in Online Racing Rules. Two wheels on track at all times (track including the rumble strips).
 
In fairness, the images just go to prove how tight the margins can be between being on or off the track. But by Eutechnyx rules if Priaulx was another tyre width to the left he still won't be penalised.
 
yes, "4 wheels on green" is still good for them.


But not for GTP OLR and I not only agree with GTP OLR but also I have commited to make those "my" rules of conduct, by being a member of the GTP Registry.


Here you have "visual examples" of what we're talking about, taken from the announcement post of a official GTP online event:


https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=114520
 
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I can't follow that link as I don't have the required password.

Just to clarify though, I fully understand and abide by the GTP OLR in our events such as the ROC and the Old Timer series.
 
turnupdaheat
Alan, while I understand your sentiment I think you are taking it too far by describing it as Off Road!

This year the F1 authorities relented a bit and the rule was that you were allowed cut the chicane up to a maximum of 3 times before you were penalised during the Italian GP!
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For me it's literally off-road. You're leaving the tarmac, 4-wheels onto some raised surface, hitting a series of structures in the ground and the car thrown slightly into the air. That's not circuit racing.

As for the F1 rules, cars could accidentally cut the corners up to 3 times, each time having to slow down and give up any advantage. They couldn't just drive at any speed through the shortcut 3 times. If, even on the very first occation, a car cut the corner and was seen to gain an advantage, a penalty would be applied. This is exactly what should happen in SCC.

Those pictures of Muller and Priaux are a completely different thing. These are examples of drivers trying to edge out a slight advantage. Monza turn-1 in SCC is nothing to do with this. The thing I have a problem with, which some people seem to enjoy for some reason, is making no attempt to round the corner as it's supposed to. It's not just going half a metre off the road - it's just so far away from the real corner that it's a different circuit.
 
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I totally agree that penalties should be applied in this case. It is the fact that Eutechnyx guys clearly do not see it this way is the issue.

They are also being inconsistant with their approach. You can be hit with a penalty at the last chicane in Montreal even though you have two wheels on the track.

Edit: Happy to see that Eutechnyx have clarified the situation:

"I'm not sure what I was thinking about when I wrote the previous reply, 3 wheels going on to a "rough tarmac" area will invalidate the times. Which is essentially the green stuff... on the Monza, Nurburg and Redwood chicanes etc. Sorry, jet lag.."
 
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Alan_G
For me it's literally off-road. You're leaving the tarmac, 4-wheels onto some raised surface, hitting a series of structures in the ground and the car thrown slightly into the air. That's not circuit racing.

Those pictures of Muller and Priaux are a completely different thing. These are examples of drivers trying to edge out a slight advantage. Monza turn-1 in SCC is nothing to do with this.
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Sorry if this sounds pedantic but the pictures are clearly not a different thing.

It's true that they are examples of drivers trying to edge out a slight advantage but in both cases they have left the tarmac, 4 wheels onto a raised surface and in Muller's case the car has been thrown more than slightly into the air. It is circuit racing.

If you take the Priaulx example, which we all accept is a "clean" approach, and took the same line at Monza turn-1 you would have to run over the series of structures that have been placed in the green area in SCC.

Either way, I am glad that Eutechnyx have indicated that laptimes won't count if more than two wheels are placed in the green area.
 
Two wheels on the track (in which is included the rumble strips) at all times. That's it right?

In running Monza with eddie, hairy & Alan last night, I noticed that they (well someone, I don't remember who) was running across the rumble strips at the first chicane. I ended up doing this too (Testa Rossa :ouch:) & it didn't seem too different from the way it was implemented in FC - definitely faster to cut across them. This is a shame, because it pretty much ruins Monza IMO. I rarely ran it in FC & I've been avoiding it in SCC. :indiff:
 

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