GT "Simcade"?

  • Thread starter Beart8o
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18
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United States
Beart8o
Is GT really not a true simulation? I have seen this criticism/observation brought up of both GT and forza a number of times on these forums. I have never (and probably will never) play any of the PC racing sims. It seems like arcade racers are defined by their bending of the rules of physics with the express purpose of making driving more fun or exciting. Sims attempt to mimic the rules to the best of their ability. Now I haven't played the last 2 Forzas, but GT and the older Forzas seem to me to never bend the rules of physics on purpose to make it more fun. Maybe it's not a perfect sim. There are things it does not simulate, and things it simulates improperly, but does that make it somehow less of a simulation? I'm inclined to say no, but I would love to hear some thoughtful opinions that aren't just an attempt to belittle one game or another.
 

NA

584
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Moe Camel
Hehe, any driving sim/game, where the average 10 year old child can practice for a week or two, and rival the record lap times of the world's best drivers (real world), in the worlds fastest cars, is bending some of the rules of physics somewhere.

At what point that turns something from sim, to simcade, to arcade, has been a matter of debate for quite some time, and will likely remain so for the long term.
 
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Mini Stiggy

Premium
4,180
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St. Joseph Michigan
I__like_oranges
NA
Hehe, any driving sim/game, where the average 10 year old child can practice for a week or two, and rival the record lap times of the world's best drivers, in the worlds fastest cars, is bending some of the rules of physics somewhere.

At what point that turns something from sim, to simcade, to arcade, has been a matter of debate for quite some time, and will likely remain so for the long term.
You mean that a 10 year old playing GT6 for a week can rival the best times? Or do you mean something like NFS?
 
4,463
Bulgaria
Bulgaria
GT''Simcade''....I've heard that somewhere:lol:
Yes GT5 is Simcade.
But GT6 is big step forward,espacially MR and RR cars.
FF,FR cars needs more work.
 
18
United States
United States
Beart8o
NA
Hehe, any driving sim/game, where the average 10 year old child can practice for a week or two, and rival the record lap times of the world's best drivers, in the worlds fastest cars, is bending some of the rules of physics somewhere.

At what point that turns something from sim, to simcade, to arcade, has been a matter of debate for quite some time, and will likely remain so for the long term.

But isn't that still it just being an imperfect sim (like all sims are inherently) and not simulating the forces and danger on a real driver. I'm sure if the real record setting drivers had no fear of wrecking and could just start over if they did, they would get better times. Sure you can turn in arcade elements (like driving lines and unrealistic aids) in GT and get amazing times, but with them off it seems like it's a sim.
 

MatskiMonk

Inebriated member
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Not so Great Britain
At the end of the day, doesn't matter what the game is, they're all just simulators, some may factor in more variables, and calculate them more accurately, but none simulate the sensation or feedback of driving a real car.
 

NixxxoN

(Banned)
2,712
Spain
Barcelona
Microsoft Flight Simulator definitely simulate G-force and gravity...
For the simulator running on the computer, yes it does. For an "air-char", well, that depends if you have one...
All you can have for MS flight simulator is stuff this:
Extravagant, expensive and doesnt really simulate the real thing, because... if you want to experience something like the real thing, you gotta do the real thing.

There are so many things that separate "simulators/games" from the reality, like real time wind, temperature, humidity, tarmac imperfections, real g-forces, real gravity... you gotta question what can really be considered a true simulator.

Heck even the F1 guys know that their ultra advanced and expensive simulators arent the real thing. They have different results.
 

Swagger897

On A Sekrit Mishun
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All you can have for MS flight simulator is stuff this:
Extravagant, expensive and doesnt really simulate the real thing, because... if you want to experience something like the real thing, you gotta do the real thing.
That's relatively cheap compared to the racing chairs and so on that I've seen that do even less than that you showed..

It, along with GT, is just a systems simulator. However, GT does not properly make use of all systems. We don't have a launch control option. We can change the fuel mapping for engines, and we can't change the speed of our windshield wipers... all of that (except launch control) can be used in a MFS..
 
141
United Kingdom
Kent
dimebolt_1976
All you can have for MS flight simulator is stuff this:
Extravagant, expensive and doesnt really simulate the real thing, because... if you want to experience something like the real thing, you gotta do the real thing.

There are so many things that separate "simulators/games" from the reality, like real time wind, temperature, humidity, tarmac imperfections, real g-forces, real gravity... you gotta question what can really be considered a true simulator.

Heck even the F1 guys know that their ultra advanced and expensive simulators arent the real thing. They have different results.


It could be said that, whilst still unable to reproduce real life 100% - using one of those machines to sit in ( or many like it ) AND Oculus Rift too, so you have nothing to disrupt your peripheral vision - would be pretty good fun :) Sure, no G-Forces, but i think that'd still be good enough at least. It'd no doubt be good enough to fool your brain into feeling a very high level of immersion and reactions withing your body, to feel as if you're there ?
 

NA

584
United States
Chicago
Moe Camel
You mean that a 10 year old playing GT6 for a week can rival the best times? Or do you mean something like NFS?

Any game, but yes, GT included.

And not just ten year olds. That was more of a subconscious reference due to the fact that my twin niece/nephew (10 year olds) came over a few months ago, and after a week were getting darn close to beating times my brother-in-law was feeding them from a track records list he found on the internet. The fact is almost anyone, any age, can learn to play the game that well if they want it bad enough. That's far from being able to do it for real, and why the professionals make the big bucks.

But isn't that still it just being an imperfect sim (like all sims are inherently) and not simulating the forces and danger on a real driver. I'm sure if the real record setting drivers had no fear of wrecking and could just start over if they did, they would get better times. Sure you can turn in arcade elements (like driving lines and unrealistic aids) in GT and get amazing times, but with them off it seems like it's a sim.

True, all sims are imperfect.

Example: I've flown high quality PC flight simulators since 1982, but I've also flown in real life. Sim time=tens of thousands of flight hours in everything from WWI Bi-planes, to modern fighter jets. Real world time= less than 100 hours in a Cessna 172. I can tell you that tens of thousands of hours in a sim gave me an edge on my first flight, but I still had to learn the other 99.9%, in a real world aircraft, with a qualified professional instructor. There is no way that I will ever be a modern fighter pilot, no matter how good I am in a sim, and I've actually pretty much given up on real world flying since.

No matter how good the sim, nor how good of a sim pilot I am, it did not make me even the most basic of a single engine VFR pilot. Only real world experience and training can do that.

Now fear.

The world is full of people that think they can drive quite a bit better than they can. Effectively they ride the thin line between courage and stupidity, and daily they die of that stupidity. If fear was all that separated real world professionals from the millions of people who ever got addicted to a driving sim (any driving sim) enough to get good at it, motorsports would be dominated by the same suicidal morons that make the average commute to work so dangerous for the rest of the drivers on the road. Today's professionals would probably not even be worth the mention. If all it takes is no fear and some time with a driving game to be Mr. Awesome, then we wouldn't need them any more. We'd have millions of drivers that far surpass the real world best we have now.

Last, "it seems like it's a sim."

Yep. And you're 100% right. You're also 100% wrong. And now you're 50% right...... (And what the bloody heck is this NA guy talking about? o_0 )

That's my whole point. It's subjective. If you want to call it a sim, I won't argue it with you. Others will. I won't.

Same goes if you want to declare it simcade, or arcade. I'm not going to argue it either. Again, others will. I won't.

Although there are plenty of reasonable benchmarks to define the different categories, and pretty solid arguments to back them, what it really comes down to is that everybody is going to put their own label on it. They're going to play it their own way. What other people think it is or isn't doesn't really matter. It is what it is. Enjoy it for what it is to you. ;)
 
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269
England
England
Blue--08--
I live 5 minutes away from Brandshatch and have driven the track many times in many of my own cars a few of which are in GT6 , does driving my car around the track feel the same as driving the track in game ? Well short answer is no nothing like infact , too many real world experiences are missing , the cars inc race cars in any GT game are very smooth and quiet to drive in real life a race car is incredibly noisy and violent to handle

Even a road car on track is a hand full , in GT the cockpit view is static nothing moves every thing is calm this is not the case irl when your on track, assists on or off GT does not compare to real life track experiences .

But that said no driving game does really the only game that came close imho was shift 2 but the steering physics ruined it.

Games are games by there very nature they cannot interact with the feeling of doing it for real .

Driving a car around a track in anger be it a race prepared car or stock is no way as smooth and quiet as GT would have you believe.
 
7,174
Exorcet
OE Exorcet
Is GT really not a true simulation? I have seen this criticism/observation brought up of both GT and forza a number of times on these forums. I have never (and probably will never) play any of the PC racing sims. It seems like arcade racers are defined by their bending of the rules of physics with the express purpose of making driving more fun or exciting. Sims attempt to mimic the rules to the best of their ability. Now I haven't played the last 2 Forzas, but GT and the older Forzas seem to me to never bend the rules of physics on purpose to make it more fun. Maybe it's not a perfect sim. There are things it does not simulate, and things it simulates improperly, but does that make it somehow less of a simulation? I'm inclined to say no, but I would love to hear some thoughtful opinions that aren't just an attempt to belittle one game or another.

I think GT is a sim, but it doesn't have to be that simple, that it only gets one lable. The physics are simulation despite all the issues it has. The cars behavior somewhat realistically and this is the intent. Recent GT games have had glaring problems with realism though, and these are things that don't seem to be down to technology limits. Things like aero modeling and tire modeling.

Racing, GT is a sim, but only in the very most general sense. You can make a convincing race in GT, but can't replicate any real life series.

As far as "career" goes GT is an arcade game.

If you drive with all aids on, then I suppose simcade would be a fitting description.
The aids make it more of a simulation as they are real things. SRF is the exception.

No game is and will ever be a true simulator, period.
This doesn't say much. There is simulation and there is the huge infinite spectrum leading up to it. It's not a yes/no thing.

Microsoft flight simulator with some good payware is a true simulator... Excluding motion and some sensory feels..

FSX I put in the same league as GT, maybe a little bit higher. A bunch of physics issues in it, good aircraft systems modeling, good ATC and flight planning. Factoring in some of the high end add on does lead to improvements though.
 

PsuPepperoni

Muscle Car Drifter
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Kansas City
PsuPepperoni
It is definitely trying to be a sim. It would help if ghosts didn't take over the steering for certain parts of the race, and if a 1971 'Cuda didn't spontaneously grow it's own traction control system when driven into grass.
 

Swagger897

On A Sekrit Mishun
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KCCO
FSX I put in the same league as GT, maybe a little bit higher. A bunch of physics issues in it, good aircraft systems modeling, good ATC and flight planning. Factoring in some of the high end add on does lead to improvements though.
I would put it only a little above it due to all the extra options that can be modified... However, when you buy payware and use it, it's miles better than GT.. If we were talking category wise
 
11,214
United States
Chicago, iLL
GTP_Nismo
GT simulates real cars visually, really well, in many cases.
I don't think this is a question you should be asking someone to answer for you. It's not up to me to sway you one way or the other. If you believe it's a sim, great.
 

eran0004

Premium
9,654
Sweden
Sweden
eran0004
All you can have for MS flight simulator is stuff this:
Extravagant, expensive and doesnt really simulate the real thing, because... if you want to experience something like the real thing, you gotta do the real thing.

There are so many things that separate "simulators/games" from the reality, like real time wind, temperature, humidity, tarmac imperfections, real g-forces, real gravity... you gotta question what can really be considered a true simulator.

Heck even the F1 guys know that their ultra advanced and expensive simulators arent the real thing. They have different results.

That's why they are simulators - not reality. Reality is not a simulator and a simulator is not reality.