GT Sport beta physics discussion - Read the First Post Before Replying

[ImaRobot]

Can you say what you exactly want to see, meaning what exact input you want me to give game?

I did already. To reiterate, go as fast as you can hitting the apex of the turn at full tilt, in the correct gear, and very abruptly lift off the throttle completely mid turn. This should be the simplest way to show off what you're trying to show.

No matter how you drive on corner there's mass trying to go outside of corner, what I did was just moving car mass balance to sit on outer wheels, if I enter corner without doing that then lift-off is getting extra boost from that, so saying at that move only reduces lift-off reactions what I did.

Yes, but if you're initiating weight transfer as extreme as that before you're getting to the point that you're trying to show off lift-off oversteer, it's already tainted the test. When you're going out and in like that, it'll likely accentuate any kind of oversteer that you would have gotten had you just went in normally.

 

[OdeFinn]

I did already. To reiterate, go as fast as you can hitting the apex of the turn at full tilt, in the correct gear, and very abruptly lift off the throttle completely mid turn. This should be the simplest way to show off what you're trying to show.

Yes, but if you're initiating weight transfer as extreme as that before you're getting to the point that you're trying to show off lift-off oversteer, it's already tainted the test. When you're going out and in like that, it'll likely accentuate any kind of oversteer that you would have gotten had you just went in normally.

Actually just opposite, most of transfer is already done in method what used, your described method there's way more transfer left what will get loose during lift-off. You should check G-forces on center of screen and listen tires and engine, then you'll see how it goes.

Answer for first quote is there too, you're looking just wrong time/place. But I can do a recording for you, even it feels bit silly after those already shown videos.

 

[ImaRobot]

Actually just opposite, most of transfer is already done in method what used, your described method there's way more transfer left what will get loose during lift-off. You should check G-forces on center of screen and listen tires and engine, then you'll see how it goes.

In a majority of them you where still in the turn while doing it. It wasn't done. So you're saying that there will be much more weight transfer through the turn by driving into it on the correct driving line, at a nice fluid rate, compared to practically initiating a turn similarly to a Scandinavian flick? I'm not believing that.

Answer for first quote is there too, you're looking just wrong time/place. But I can do a recording for you, even it feels bit silly after those already shown videos.

It doesn't feel silly to me, especially considering the way you're testing it. I'm not looking at the wrong times, as I'm watching the whole video, every one you posted and while sometimes it seems like its barely there, a lot of the time it seems like you're introducing a situation that alters the outcome. If lift-off oversteer is there, those videos are doing a poor job showing it.

 

[z06fun]

Trust me my friend It's definitely transmission tuning. I have been on straight with my opponent driving the same car as me and got left! I bet If they forced stock transmission the time gap would not be that crazy. The race transmission Is already better than the stock one so just off of that I know I have no chance with the other guys. It doesn't bother me though I still have great battles In the middle of the pack. With the SR ratings It keeps the racing a lot more interesting doesn't matter where you are on the grid.

Transmission setting is not too bad really, if everything is coded correctly regarding how HP translates to acceleration. The best accel would be obtained from operating at the HP peak all the time. So you need to set the gearing to allow you to be close to the max HP as much as possible. This tends to lead to a setting that results in narrower RPM operating ranges for the upper gears vs the lower ones. Shift points are important too, if you can shift and get to a place higher on the HP curve, you should shift. So for the STi with its low RPM HP peak, this means you shift before the rev limiter generally. Again all assuming they got all the math coded correctly

 

[OdeFinn]

@ImaRobot You seem to look corners bit differently, on those tests I modulated corner lengths, making them shorter, approaching apex from different angles, som of them hadn't nothing to do on normal curve shape, I just borrowed asphalt and made my own turns inside track area, this thing what you should watch, forget how the turn of track looks, look gforces and car turn radius changes and tire scream when throttle gets lifted.

Silly is that at you're suggesting to test "full speed to apex and lifting there", that type of corners are rare, earlier videos there's few and I drove those pretty much like it. Other corners which I said modulated can't be driven like that, more likely lifting brake just prior apex than throttle.

 

[twistedwheels]

i really want to play the beta

 

[ImaRobot]

@ImaRobot You seem to look corners bit differently, on those tests I modulated corner lengths, making them shorter, approaching apex from different angles, som of them hadn't nothing to do on normal curve shape, I just borrowed asphalt and made my own turns inside track area, this thing what you should watch, forget how the turn of track looks, look gforces and car turn radius changes and tire scream when throttle gets lifted.

Im not restricting myself to the track, but more so how youre driving and how the things your doing in the video are introducing to many variables, making it not very clear. That's why the very simple method that I gave you would eliminate any outside variable that you may be throwing into the mix with your odd testing style.

Silly is that at you're suggesting to test "full speed to apex and lifting there", that type of corners are rare, earlier videos there's few and I drove those pretty much like it. Other corners which I said modulated can't be driven like that, more likely lifting brake just prior apex than throttle

So because that because the type of corner is rare means its silly? It doesn't matter if its the rarest corner in the world, the way I've asked will easily show if there is lift-off overseer.

If your having trouble understanding, as it seems you are, then simple terms would be for you to approach a corner as if you were in a heated race, and attack the corner. When you get to about the mid point, while youre full lock with your finger on the throttle, very abruptly left off the throttle and continue the turn. If its there, this should pull you more inwards to the direction of the turn while you lose a bit of grip.

I will rematch your videos again but they don't seem to work on mobile. However, like I said, your videos aren't very clear.

 

[OdeFinn]

Im not restricting myself to the track, but more so how youre driving and how the things your doing in the video are introducing to many variables, making it not very clear. That's why the very simple method that I gave you would eliminate any outside variable that you may be throwing into the mix with your odd testing style.

Wretch those videos again and again, I'm modulating most corners to be driveable exactly as you are wanting, you just don't want or understand to see what's happening there.

So because that because the type of corner is rare means its silly? It doesn't matter if its the rarest corner in the world, the way I've asked will easily show if there is lift-off overseer.

Your idea is applied on already shown material,you keep them weird because there is no brake used, but you're asking me to either use brake fire this test or drive one corner repeatedly, which is already driven on earlier videos and driven exactly as you're now asking to do again.
Sorry, I use time to this somewhere in future, actually those videos "must be hoax" because "everyone knows" at "Camber is broken" and "you must be on zero camber" with "parachute LSD" for working turn "used backward ride height", let's just keep living our lives and pray our prayers on our own churches, even I'm not member of any.

If your having trouble understanding, as it seems you are, then simple terms would be for you to approach a corner as if you were in a heated race, and attack the corner. When you get to about the mid point, while youre full lock with your finger on the throttle, very abruptly left off the throttle and continue the turn. If its there, this should pull you more inwards to the direction of the turn while you lose a bit of grip.

I don't have trouble on understanding, one corner (already done, having trouble to see it?), many others improvised to get entered full throttle on apex which is kinda uncommon on entry type, but best for showing lift-off oversteer, may I ask have you utilised lift-off oversteer in real life? Personally whole winter playing with it, using fwd/rwd/4wd cars a lot, it's a passion to keep car sliding much as possible during winter and lift-off traction braking is one of easiest way to get all of them slide, from slow to fast speeds it one of most used tool, it may include variations of left foot brake clue or mass movement by wheel or/and brake, just saying at it's one of most natural moves what I use and I'm familiar to it, understanding when it comes, how it comes, why it comes, on videos there's proof for people who understand.

I will rematch your videos again but they don't seem to work on mobile. However, like I said, your videos aren't very clear.

Weird mobile, those are recorded on mobile, edited and uploaded on mobile, watched on mobile. But it's good to "rematch" them.


Let's say it like this, believer believe what ever he want to believe, I'm not believer, I just trust my self
More videos might or might not come, I'm not making religion of this.

 

[PzR Slim]

Didn't fail on same place..but

Pretty sure at there's Lift-off oversteer..
Or here


Used some RS specs, didn't get workshop manual in 5 min so used fordservicecontent database values:
Front camber -1.51° ±1.25
Front total toe +0.20° ±0.20°
Rear camber -0.97° ±1.25°
Rear total toe +0.30° ±0.20°

So in game camber -1.4/-0.9
And toe +0.03/+0.15

Ride height SH155/155 - SS153/153 - RS149/149
Video only with RS, doesn't bother to record other grades.
If that Lift-off oversteer isn't enough you can put rear toe to +0.10 and have bit more fun

Why are you trying to Scandi flick into every corner?

 

[OdeFinn]

Why are you trying to Scandi flick into every corner?

Not bad,but still far from reality.

 

[PzR Slim]

That doesn't answer my question.

 

[OdeFinn]

That doesn't answer my question.

You're concentrating your focus on wrong phases of Focus moves.
Just to clarify one thing, when car turns on constant radius throttle applied and steering ratio unchanged driver lifts throttle and constant turn radius doubles just because of that throttle lifting then you're having "lift-off oversteer", people seem to think at it means something like that example video from IRL where driver makes a mistake and touches brake while already having rear lightened coz of turn+ engine brake and minimal crest on turn takes rest, as you see he's driving outside of corner where crest effects more than inside of that corner, you can look that crest/bump from several educational Nordschleife videos where professional driver is narrating thru whole track and explaining track surface do/don't places.

If you know how car mass can be handled then you'll understand what I did on those videos, Scandinavian flick isn't that, if doing flick you are swinging just marginally more to get tires on edge of grip and getting them over it by steer, which I'm not applying more, just keeping constant turn radius on wheel, I'm not going even close to that SF and settling body/suspension after that move is eliminating all Scandinavian flick style benefits(if you want to think start of move like it) as also seen on videos.

But let's close this side path from this thread, I don't care much if people aren't seeing lift-off oversteer, I'm enjoying it and that's enough for me, people can drive like they want and setup their car as backwards as they want if they're enjoying it. But don't blame physicsengine if you're asking it to calculate weird calculations.

 

[Imari]

Wretch those videos again and again, I'm modulating most corners to be driveable exactly as you are wanting, you just don't want or understand to see what's happening there.

"I'm doing exactly what you say, you're just looking at it wrong."

How about you try making a clean demonstration, without any tricks, Scandi flicks, or making up your own lines on the track? You know, try and actually make a clear demonstration of the effect instead of obscuring it with all the other nonsense that you're doing.



Or are you unable to come up with as clear and simple an example as that? Because that's how simple it should be. Drive smoothly around corner, lift off, back of car comes around. No paying attention to G-meters or sounds or whatever imaginary track you've made for yourself. Just the car moving in response to your throttle inputs, with as little else going on as possible.

But let's close this side path from this thread, I don't care much if people aren't seeing lift-off oversteer...

Oh look, he's bailed out of actually demonstrating something he claimed again. I am shocked. Shocked, I say.

Mate, if you can't explain and demonstrate something clearly, you don't understand it as well as you think you do.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

So much GT6 talk.

Any chance of some GT Sport discussion?

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Regarding Forza6 tire model, I did not say its not easy to correct. Thats not the issue, as Forza6 has magic behind the scenes correction also. Its the huge change in the coefficient of friction once you get past the peak grip slip angle thats just not close to real life. For real tires, this area of the force vs slip angle plot is a continous curve (in the dry), it does not jump down at some certain slip angle like the Forza6 model. I will add if you used normal steering (vs sim steering) it gets masked because it generally helps keep you from steering in a way that puts you past peak grip. The forza dry pavement tire model reminds me very much of driving on heavily sealed pavement in the rain. Thats a very knife edge condition where a tire will let go and the have a much lower sliding coefficient of friction.

I'll add this, every person Ive talked to who has lots of experience in real cars like me, and has played Forza6 can not stand the tire model. One guy went as far as to say it was "infuriating".

I know there are fast wheel users in Forza6, but my experience was that every fast guy I came across racing online was using the controller. That was not at all the case in GT6 where most fast guys were using a wheel.


Back to our regularly scheduled programming...

I find it also infuriating, good to know I'm not the only one. Remember when I first tried out the next-gen Forza physics in 2013 before FM5 released and couldn't believe how bad handling was. Gave benefit of doubt and got retail game but still terrible and same goes for FM6. Shame really as game has a lot of cars but all feel 🤬 to drive, hopefully FM7 is a big improvement. Played briefly FM6 Apex yesterday with G27, first time on my updated PC. Close to 15 minute session at Brands Hatch Indy testing out handling with a V12 Vantage S, video below. Did couple of laps at end just to confirm what I know about handling model limits.



Is it normal to have so much oversteer just turning into corners at a slow pace? I always find the cars have a lot of grip where I don't expect it and very little when I do, I just expect opposite of reality in this game. Also correcting for oversteer doesn't feel realistic or enjoyable, FFB is also vague. I just noticed tip they give, "To correct oversteer, turn into the direction of the slide and gently apply your brakes." Is that what racing drivers do, didn't know that was the way to do it? Learn something new every day...

Any chance you could make a similar kind of GT Sport video and see how a similar car handles on that track? Do you experience massive oversteer just by turning into a corner? So far GTS looks to behind the likes of rFactor 2 and Assetto Corsa but a decent step in the right direction compared to GT6 from videos I've seen so far.

In that case there will be no problem for you to reproduce this lift off oversteer with Focus RS.

Is that even lift-off oversteer?

 

[OdeFinn]

"I'm doing exactly what you say, you're just looking at it wrong."

How about you try making a clean demonstration, without any tricks, Scandi flicks, or making up your own lines on the track? You know, try and actually make a clear demonstration of the effect instead of obscuring it with all the other nonsense that you're doing.



Or are you unable to come up with as clear and simple an example as that? Because that's how simple it should be. Drive smoothly around corner, lift off, back of car comes around. No paying attention to G-meters or sounds or whatever imaginary track you've made for yourself. Just the car moving in response to your throttle inputs, with as little else going on as possible.



Oh look, he's bailed out of actually demonstrating something he claimed again. I am shocked. Shocked, I say.

Mate, if you can't explain and demonstrate something clearly, you don't understand it as well as you think you do.

 

[Imari]

Do you see yet why people are calling BS? That's not oversteer. That's a lack of understeer. The car pushes like a barge while you're on the throttle, and then turns into where it's pointed when you get off. The back of the car doesn't step out or come around. You don't have to counter-steer to control the car. It's simply changing attitude slightly because of the different weight distribution.

Either your idea of oversteer is totally different to everyone else's, or you simply misunderstand what lift off oversteer is. I can tell you very clearly that what is shown in that video is not it though.

 

[ebelen92]

A few points:

1. GTS competitors AC and PCARS are not super difficult on pad. The main gripes I have with both is that the former is understeer prone when pushing while the latter is difficult to control once oversteer is induced.

2. It's possible for me to go from AC to GTS with no issues but I can't go the other way without putting in an hour of practice to get used to the direct nature of steering in AC. GTS feels Gran Turismo familiar. Very easy to feel the edge of performance on a pad and TOO easy to correct oversteer.

3. I wish there was a more sensitive steering option for game pad on GTS.

4. Had a weird occurrence through a couple of Gr. 4 races at Brands Hatch where it felt like following in traffic added F1 levels of understeer to my corvette. I qualified with a 1:36.5xx but couldn't do better than a 1:37.7xx during the race. Even in clean air understeer was almost unpredictable. Came in 3rd after going off in turn 1 on the last lap.

F. Forza Motorsport has an obnoxious tire model on race cars. No real idea when you've reached the edge of performance before the car starts sliding about. The tires feel like plastic caps. There's no real sense of grip. In my opinion it's an inferior physics and tire approach compared to GTS, AC, and PCARS on a game pad. Hell, it's even inferior to Forza Horizon.

On the whole I feel we all (including myself) are too quick to call PCARS and AC unplayable on a game pad. They aren't. It's not even difficult to get within a second or two of alien times in those games. It just requires more practice and precision.

More on topic, GTS is super familiar time after time. Coming from AC is super easy and after little practice it's possible to get a sense of one's ultimate pace. I would say this game is enjoyable in its own way, as much as its more "hardcore" competitors and much more so then Forza Motorsport.

 

[OdeFinn]

Do you see yet why people are calling BS? That's not oversteer. That's a lack of understeer. The car pushes like a barge while you're on the throttle, and then turns into where it's pointed when you get off. The back of the car doesn't step out or come around. You don't have to counter-steer to control the car. It's simply changing attitude slightly because of the different weight distribution.

Either your idea of oversteer is totally different to everyone else's, or you simply misunderstand what lift off oversteer is. I can tell you very clearly that what is shown in that video is not it though.

During cornering tires are continuously slipping on their slip angle, when throttle is lifted and weight is transferred toward front tires their grip factor rises and slip factor reduces making car front grab more turn in, when car starts to steer more than your applied steering angle on wheel is at current speed it's called "oversteering" because it starts to turn more on identical steering angle at current speed.
If your only change prior this above mentioned oversteering is lifting throttle it get a new name: "lift-off oversteer".

 

[GT6champNK_69]

"I'm doing exactly what you say, you're just looking at it wrong."

How about you try making a clean demonstration, without any tricks, Scandi flicks, or making up your own lines on the track? You know, try and actually make a clear demonstration of the effect instead of obscuring it with all the other nonsense that you're doing.



Or are you unable to come up with as clear and simple an example as that? Because that's how simple it should be. Drive smoothly around corner, lift off, back of car comes around. No paying attention to G-meters or sounds or whatever imaginary track you've made for yourself. Just the car moving in response to your throttle inputs, with as little else going on as possible.



Oh look, he's bailed out of actually demonstrating something he claimed again. I am shocked. Shocked, I say.

Mate, if you can't explain and demonstrate something clearly, you don't understand it as well as you think you do.

A bit rude!

 

[LeoStrop]

I think the problem of lift-off oversteer in GT6 is something much more simple than having "broken physics" or something like that, and is related to rear grip. Fwd cars have much more rear grip than it normaly would. If you take a well balanced car like the 01' Type R and put CS in front and CM at the back that car will oversteer and become much more fun to drive, and even faster, depending on the track.

Is that unrealistic? Maybe, but if you look at Fwd racing cars in real life, most of them use smaller tires at the back to induce rotation, take this record holding honda civic going around tsukuba, it uses 265 and 205 tires front and rear respectively, and its not oversteering all over the place. Since you can't use different size tires on GT6, using different compound is the closer that you can get to this situation.

Most of FWD cars in real life wont oversteer if you lift-off because if they did, a lot of people would be killed, including me. They have a safer set-up from factory to prevent things like that from happening, and the more track focused the car is, the more loose the rear set-up will be, and the same thing can be experienced on GT6, that is why i mentioned the 01' Civic.

And lift-off oversteer is not just a question of lifting off and oversteering, you have to work in conjunction with weight transfer for that oversterr to kick in. So it is more like steer-lift-off oversteer.

I remember when i drove a FWD race car, the rules didn't allowed to use different size tires, and the tires had to be street, in that case it was the Pirelli P6000, real crappy. So to induce rotation the cars had a massive front camber(-4.5 i think), and the rear suspension was almost nonexistent, almost like a wheel attached to the chassis to make it really loose. I drove the car for about 8 laps and the understeer was massive, just resting your foot on the throttle would make the car understeer, there was a lot of oversteer also, but it was much more complex than just lifting off and magically having the rear sliding out, if you had a bit more steering angle than it should, you would just had that massive understeer around the entire corner. Seeing the pros slidind the heck out of those cars on every corner looked really simple from the outside, but from the inside it was a totally different story.

Just my 2 cents

 

[ImaRobot]

During cornering tires are continuously slipping on their slip angle, when throttle is lifted and weight is transferred toward front tires their grip factor rises and slip factor reduces making car front grab more turn in, when car starts to steer more than your applied steering angle on wheel is at current speed it's called "oversteering" because it starts to turn more on identical steering angle at current speed.
If your only change prior this above mentioned oversteering is lifting throttle it get a new name: "lift-off oversteer".

No, that is not oversteer. Oversteer is not the result of "grip factor rising", nor is the "slip factor reducing". If anything it would be completely opposite of that.

Oversteer is the result of your cars back end losing grip and trying to swing around you. For example, power oversteering through a turn is a result of using an unnecessary amount of throttle through a turn, forcing your rear end to come lose.

Most of FWD cars in real life wont oversteer if you lift-off because if they did, a lot of people would be killed, including me. They have a safer set-up from factory to prevent things like that from happening, and the more track focused the car is, the more loose the rear set-up will be, and the same thing can be experienced on GT6, that is why i mentioned the 01' Civic

Most people driving on the road aren't driving at full speed, WOT. They're in a low gear at low cruising speeds, it wont be happening at that time. Lift off oversteer is a very common trait in FWD vehicles.

And lift-off oversteer is not just a question of lifting off and oversteering, you have to work in conjunction with weight transfer for that oversterr to kick in. So it is more like steer-lift-off oversteer

Of courses , that's a given, because you can't oversteer if you aren't steering.

 

[ImaRobot]

Dp.

 

[super_gt]

like that example video from IRL where driver makes a mistake and touches brake

Is that even lift-off oversteer?

If you doubt here is another case with Focus RS in the same corner but from outside.Play the video at speed 0.25 and watch carefully the rear lights which remain off,which means that it does not use brakes.

 

[OdeFinn]

No, that is not oversteer. Oversteer is not the result of "grip factor rising", nor is the "slip factor reducing". If anything it would be completely opposite of that.

Oversteer is the result of your cars back end losing grip and trying to swing around you. For example, power oversteering through a turn is a result of using an unnecessary amount of throttle through a turn, forcing your rear end to come lose.

Okey now I understand why you don't understand.

Lift-off oversteer (also known as snap-oversteer, trailing-throttle oversteer, throttle off oversteer, or lift-throttle oversteer) is a form of oversteer in automobiles that occurs while cornering when closing the throttlecauses a deceleration, causing the vertical load on the tires to shift from the rear to the front, in a process called weight transfer. This decrease in vertical load on the rear tires causes a decrease in the lateral force they generate, so that their lateral acceleration (into the corner) is also decreased. This causes the vehicle to steer more tightly into the turn, hence oversteering. In other words, easing off the accelerator can cause the rear tires to lose traction, with the potential for the car to leave the road tail first.

Btw. You're seeing understeer in places where it's not present, and not seeing oversteer where it is present.

You should really now take a small rest from replying and check few facts and then come back and reply. TY

 

[LeoStrop]

Most people driving on the road aren't driving at full speed, WOT. They're in a low gear at low cruising speeds, it wont be happening at that time. Lift off oversteer is a very common trait in FWD vehicles.

I am not talking of most people who drive in low speed, that is obvious. I can assure you i don't drive in low speed, when i have the chance. And no, is not that common and requires much more than simply releasing the throttle.

Of courses , that's a given, because you can't oversteer if you aren't steering.

What i wanted to say is that it requires a certain steering angle at the right moment, other than that it would result in understeer.

 

[queleuleu]

The sim racing community... it's just a plastic toy at the end with a closed environment model. Variables are virtually infinite and when they are known and follow a set of rules, often too costly to be 100% implemented.
As long as GTSport is convincing, I'm ok. Even if the bumper doesn't interact with the track...

 

[Scaff]

A bad supension and shocks conditions on that old Focus could be a reason for that lift off oversteer.

Also a bad tyre condition and bad or unbalanced pressures... a previous accident with that car with chassis and steering consequences, etc. We know nothing about that car past...

Or it could be down to the fact that all generations of the Focus RS have a known trait of heavy lift-off oversteer.

You should really now take a small rest from replying and check few facts and then come back and reply. TY

Don't tell other members when to post, you're not a member of staff here, don't act as if you are.

 

[ImaRobot]

Okey now I understand why you don't understand

That definition you posted is also the complete opposite of what you said. It is not a raise in grip and a reduction in slip like you said. That definition is literally saying what I've told you to do in the first place.

Btw. You're seeing understeer in places where it's not present, and not seeing oversteer where it is present.

You should really now take a small rest from replying and check few facts and then come back and reply. TY

Not one instance did I mention understeer. Its ironic that you would tell me that after everything you've just said. You do not know the definition of what youre trying to explain.

I am not talking of most people who drive in low speed, that is obvious. I can assure you i don't drive in low speed, when i have the chance. And no, is not that common and requires much more than simply releasing the throttle

I never said it was as common as lifting the throttle. That is just a safe and easy method to test it in gt6. Either way it doesn't take away from the fact that this is a common thing in fwd vehicles.

 

[LeoStrop]

I never said it was as common as lifting the throttle. That is just a safe and easy method to test it in gt6. Either way it doesn't tape away from the fact that this is a common thing in fwd vehicles.

Agreed 👍