GT Sport beta physics discussion - Read the First Post Before Replying

[Lord Protector]

@Lord Protector tested quickly Honda S2000 '06 with '00-'03 suspension alignments, just to get driving wheel visible used newer version, first tested on correct era but realised at you might want to see wheel also.
Specs from service manual, stating front camber -0.3°±'10 and toe-in 0 ±2mm, rear camber -1.3 ±'10 and toe-in 6mm ±2mm.

Due GT6 camber throw used lower values on camber to get even numbers to get zero toe on front.

So test car has following setup, everything not mentioned is as is on stock:
Ride height CS130/130 - SS126/126 - RS122/122
Camber -0.2/-1.2
Toe -0.01/+0.27 (front 20:1 camber throw counter value, rear comes from 225/50R16)

No aids, noABS, grip real offline.




Really hard to believe at there isn't Lift-off oversteer..

Nice test thank you for that. However, I have a '97 Honda Prelude and found zero oversteer when lift-off and yes I'm talking about GT6. Sadly, I no longer have the manual with car setup, neither I have a PS3 so I can't try it... if you have some spare time take a lap with the 'lude

 

[OdeFinn]

Nice test thank you for that. However, I have a '97 Honda Prelude and found zero oversteer when lift-off and yes I'm talking about GT6. Sadly, I no longer have the manual with car setup, neither I have a PS3 so I can't try it... if you have some spare time take a lap with the 'lude

Give me specs and your implementation of it, want to check it.
..I'll dig out service manual for it.

 

[coryclifford]

No Honda has lift off oversteer from the factory for safety reasons. My old roommate was a suspension engineer at Honda R&D for many years, and I've raced with a few of them. Always the same, safety for the people that panic in a bad situation. Nose first, not the rear spinning. Airbags. It also explains the tremendous camber gain and toe change in the rear under load.

And to add, any time you lower a S2000 the rear toe goes out and the camber goes negative. By a lot. Lowered S2000 is snap oversteer king. Don't lower a stock S2000 without addressing those issues.

 

[Lord Protector]

And to add, any time you lower a S2000 the rear toe goes out and the camber goes negative. By a lot. Lowered S2000 is snap oversteer king. Don't lower a stock S2000 without addressing those issues.

This is a crucial fact in tuning, yeah.

But, my Honda (stock at the time) was one hell of a oversteery car when pushing the car on its limits... I don't know, maybe they made an exception for this exceptional sports coupé

 

[OdeFinn]

Nice test thank you for that. However, I have a '97 Honda Prelude and found zero oversteer when lift-off and yes I'm talking about GT6. Sadly, I no longer have the manual with car setup, neither I have a PS3 so I can't try it... if you have some spare time take a lap with the 'lude

Tested with oem specs Prelude SiR '96 and lift-off oversteer is there, did same type testing as on earlier videos.
Specs used:
Ride height CS140/140 - SS136/136 - RS132/132
Camber 0.0/-0.4
Toe 0.00/+0.09 (205/50R16 total toe +0.19=2mm as on specs)

Result is clear, can take video later, but it's same as above, only slightly less due FWD car, definitely big lift-off oversteer for FWD car.

No Honda has lift off oversteer from the factory for safety reasons. My old roommate was a suspension engineer at Honda R&D for many years, and I've raced with a few of them. Always the same, safety for the people that panic in a bad situation. Nose first, not the rear spinning. Airbags. It also explains the tremendous camber gain and toe change in the rear under load.

And to add, any time you lower a S2000 the rear toe goes out and the camber goes negative. By a lot. Lowered S2000 is snap oversteer king. Don't lower a stock S2000 without addressing those issues.

"All" cars behave like you say, always need to change camber and toe if lowering. Honda's way to cure S2000 was minimize lift-off oversteer by big rear toe-in, works in GT6 same way, if reducing toe car will suffer bad lift-off oversteer in GT6.

 

[ImaRobot]

Tested with oem specs Prelude SiR '96 and lift-off oversteer is there, did same type testing as on earlier videos.
Specs used:
Ride height CS140/140 - SS136/136 - RS132/132
Camber 0.0/-0.4
Toe 0.00/+0.09 (205/50R16 total toe +0.19=2mm as on specs)

Result is clear, can take video later, but it's same as above, only slightly less due FWD car, definitely big lift-off oversteer for FWD car.

Weird, FWD cars are usually the ones that tend to have more lift-off oversteer situations.

 

[OdeFinn]

Weird, FWD cars are usually the ones that tend to have more lift-off oversteer situations.

Depends on many things, main thing is simple, GT6 had lift-off oversteer working, opposite to claims what there's told.

 

[ImaRobot]

Depends on many things, main thing is simple, GT6 had lift-off oversteer working, opposite to claims what there's told.

If it was simple there wouldn't be so much confusion .

 

[Imari]

If it was simple there wouldn't be so much confusion .

It's so simple, he's unable to explain it simply and clearly. You'd think if something was so obviously working correctly that you could just tell people how to do it and let them see for themselves.

 

[super_gt]

GT6 had lift-off oversteer working, opposite to claims what there's told.

In that case there will be no problem for you to reproduce this lift off oversteer with Focus RS.

 

[PzR Slim]

In that case there will be no problem to reproduce this lift off oversteer with any FF car or Focus RS.

A case of checking your underpants that!

 

[azrilnazli]

Can you guys drive at nords on any gt3 with minimal wing and a bit of camber.

Does it feel a bit hard to control ?

 

[Lord Protector]

Can you guys drive at nords on any gt3 with minimal wing and a bit of camber.

Does it feel a bit hard to control ?

nordschleife is not available right now afaik

 

[Fredzy]

Bro I feel you big time, im not so picky with the race cars as much but the N class should not modify the tranmision. I could not believe how fast some of these guys were on the ring, I have no clue on transmission tuning so maybe im just salty.

Yea man, I wonder if that's what it is - transmission. I don't play with individual ratios, just set top speed. I'm leaving a few seconds on the track in N300 at Nurb but just can't imagine where another 6-7 could ever come from.

 

[JDMKING13]

Yea man, I wonder if that's what it is - transmission. I don't play with individual ratios, just set top speed. I'm leaving a few seconds on the track in N300 at Nurb but just can't imagine where another 6-7 could ever come from.

Trust me my friend It's definitely transmission tuning. I have been on straight with my opponent driving the same car as me and got left! I bet If they forced stock transmission the time gap would not be that crazy. The race transmission Is already better than the stock one so just off of that I know I have no chance with the other guys. It doesn't bother me though I still have great battles In the middle of the pack. With the SR ratings It keeps the racing a lot more interesting doesn't matter where you are on the grid.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Yea man, I wonder if that's what it is - transmission. I don't play with individual ratios, just set top speed. I'm leaving a few seconds on the track in N300 at Nurb but just can't imagine where another 6-7 could ever come from.

That's the question I ask about the Nurb on every game I've ever played

 

[z06fun]

Just wondering are you comparing things with identical setups or is i.e. GT test cars running with those ridiculous amounts of rear toe-in?
Several your described handling "issues" are coming from that rear toe-in, bad toe-in on front doesn't help either, if those stock values are used then there is no idea for physics comparison, I'll bet at if you put those +0.60 to +1.00 toe values on any good SIM you'll find really much GT styled reactions, "not realistic" if you believe car handling like "normal cars IRL", just thing what you'll never found in real life is such toe values used.

Just by looking GTS beta it seems to react pretty much same as GT6 on suspension alignments, few differences to better, but not huge leap.
Wishing at I get beta on my hands to test it.. Maybe EU beta.

I have not actually compared an identical setup on a given car, between GT6 and the beta. That would be interesting to do. I haven't checked things like ride height or toe in yet (only toe out) in the beta, to see what they do so not sure how they compare to GT6 or if they are working correctly. Its on to do list Maybe someone else has?

I haven't got Beta access yet (EU player) but this thread has made me want to raise a question based on my experience with Gran Turismo 6:

• In GT6 0.0 Camber was seen by many as the optimal setting, as anything deviating from that would result in slower laptimes. Has this been changed in Gran Turismo Sport?
  
  
• In GT6 the Ride Height parameters were "backwards", with a higher nose and lower rear-end providing increased turn-in (whereas it should be a higher rear-end and lower nose). Has this also been fixed?

Check the first post, but in the beta 0 camber generally seems to have much less turning grip vs added negative camber. Need to test the ride height thing still.

I don't get it how PD still hasn't solved the missing lift-off oversteer thing.. I mean how hard is that...

anyway, looking forward to answers for questions above 👍

I'm a european player so still waiting to get my hands on GTS

Im not sure its that they haven't solved it as much as they are purposely preventing it by removing front grip also in the situation where lift oversteer would happen. Perhaps so that, instead of the unexperienced guy spinning in that situation, he just pushes way off line in a 4 wheel lift drift. Would love to have a mode to remove that "driving aid" type thing. You can get a little rotation (in some cars) by lifting in the beta, but its limited. You certainly get lots of rotation if the rear breaks loose due to too much throttle.

That very much depends on the tyre (and I'm talking about reality here).

Lateral force will always drop once the tyres slip reaches a certain point (and that point will again vary from tyre to tyre and condition to condition).

http://racingcardynamics.com/racing-tires-lateral-force/

Its also important to not forget that what is happening at the wheels and what we feel via the steering are not the same, as the fall off of self-aligning torque via the steering wheel is much more noticeable.

Thanks for posting this! I should have included something like that as I forget at times that not everyone may be very familiar with plots like this and their shape etc. These will be helpful for people to see some real life tire info.
Notice how all the curves in the first plot are continous, and the force does not instantly jump down to some lower value at any specific slip angle. Instead the force gradually bends over after you pass the peak force slip angle. These are a great representation of dry condition tire response. GTS seems to be closer to this than previous GT's.👍

I added an update the opening post, at the bottom. Maybe others can try what I did on different cars and post their findings. Its odd for sure.

 

[OdeFinn]

In that case there will be no problem for you to reproduce this lift off oversteer with Focus RS.

Didn't fail on same place..but

Pretty sure at there's Lift-off oversteer..
Or here


Used some RS specs, didn't get workshop manual in 5 min so used fordservicecontent database values:
Front camber -1.51° ±1.25
Front total toe +0.20° ±0.20°
Rear camber -0.97° ±1.25°
Rear total toe +0.30° ±0.20°

So in game camber -1.4/-0.9
And toe +0.03/+0.15

Ride height SH155/155 - SS153/153 - RS149/149
Video only with RS, doesn't bother to record other grades.
If that Lift-off oversteer isn't enough you can put rear toe to +0.10 and have bit more fun

 

[JDMKING13]

Didn't fail on same place..but

Pretty sure at there's Lift-off oversteer..
Or here


Used some RS specs, didn't get workshop manual in 5 min so used fordservicecontent database values:
Front camber -1.51° ±1.25
Front total toe +0.20° ±0.20°
Rear camber -0.97° ±1.25°
Rear total toe +0.30° ±0.20°

So in game camber -1.4/-0.9
And toe +0.03/+0.15

Ride height SH155/155 - SS153/153 - RS149/149
Video only with RS, doesn't bother to record other grades.
If that Lift-off oversteer isn't enough you can put rear toe to +0.10 and have bit more fun

Can you explain how you get your your final toe calculations based on those numbers?

 

[OdeFinn]

Can you explain how you get your your final toe calculations based on those numbers?

Car without body rigidity improvement produces 5% camber thrust on GT6, with rigidity installed it produces 10%, this is as is on front, rear seems mostly go without camber thrust calculations, but I might be wrong on rear, if it produces thrust it's not so big deal.

This means on focus -1.4° produces 0.07° positive toe in, and rest is just added to normal toe, 0.07+0.03=0.10 = half of total toe 0.20.

 

[super_gt]

Didn't fail on same place..but

Not bad,but still far from reality.
It will be very interesting to see the same test made by you in GT Sport Beta with Ford Focus ST.

 

[ImaRobot]

Didn't fail on same place..but

Pretty sure at there's Lift-off oversteer..

To be honest, most of those turns looked forced. Some you even turn opposite, and turn back in. Some you where lifting before the turn even came in. An easier way to check for this is to go around a turn as fast as you can at WOT and release the gas mid-turn. It will produce more accurate results. It seems to be a hint of it, but you yourself are introducing more variables.

 

[praiano63]

Till now on my 5 tuned cars, here is what i´ve found.

Very Responsive settings:
-Brake balance. (Even with ABS on mild)
-Ride height ( the right way this time.)
-Spring rate
-Differential. One of the most important and influent setting here.

Medium responsive settings
-Camber (Good to fine tune the balance of the car) IMO it work fine in GTsport beta, values between 1,5 and 3,5 is where is the spot normally. Extreme values are not ok at all. Max value is a total lost of grip.
-TOE angle. Mostly the rear, front TOE is not very efficient in the way it have to be in corner entry.
-Downforce. Good for balance but very few difference of speed with full and mini downforce IMO.

Low response settings
-Dampers , both ext and compression, not a big difference of the car behaviors with any number anywhere, even extremes numbers.

 

[oneloops]

In that case there will be no problem for you to reproduce this lift off oversteer with Focus RS.

A bad supension and shocks conditions on that old Focus could be a reason for that lift off oversteer.

Also a bad tyre condition and bad or unbalanced pressures... a previous accident with that car with chassis and steering consequences, etc. We know nothing about that car past...

 

[ImaRobot]

A bad supension condition on that old Focus could be a reason for that lift off oversteer.

Eh, it could also be that its a trait usually associated with FWD vehicles with a small wheelbase, too.

A bad supension and shocks conditions on that old Focus could be a reason for that lift off oversteer.

Also a bad tyre condition and bad or unbalanced pressures... a previous accident with that car with chassis and steering consequences, etc. We know nothing about that car past...

You're really trying to grasp for anything, aren't you. Why don't we just go off the fact that it's a usual occurrence with similar vehicles of that drivetype and take it into consideration when doing our testing?

 

[super_gt]

A bad supension and shocks conditions on that old Focus could be a reason for that lift off oversteer.

Also a bad tyre condition and bad or unbalanced pressures... a previous accident with that car with chassis and steering consequences, etc. We know nothing about that car past...

Lift off oversteer is typical for this corner,it happens very often.This makes it very good for physics test.

 

[JDMKING13]

Car without body rigidity improvement produces 5% camber thrust on GT6, with rigidity installed it produces 10%, this is as is on front, rear seems mostly go without camber thrust calculations, but I might be wrong on rear, if it produces thrust it's not so big deal.

This means on focus -1.4° produces 0.07° positive toe in, and rest is just added to normal toe, 0.07+0.03=0.10 = half of total toe 0.20.

Playing PCARS and AC, the toe is crazy off in GT6 and GTS I just dont understand. When you make the adjustments the game really opens up poor braking techniques and coming of the throttle at the wrong time will make you suffer a lot more. Thanks @OdeFinn

 

[OdeFinn]

Not bad,but still far from reality.
It will be very interesting to see the same test made by you in GT Sport Beta with Ford Focus ST.

Hey car has "PD STOCK" springs, 3-3-3-33333.. damp/arb, it won't work as replica, give me real values for 2002 and it slides like a real, tested few springs and dampers and it started to go more and more like real deal.
I'd like to test that GTS beta, but that is just in higher hands, if master of PD gives me a invite..

To be honest, most of those turns looked forced. Some you even turn opposite, and turn back in. Some you where lifting before the turn even came in. An easier way to check for this is to go around a turn as fast as you can at WOT and release the gas mid-turn. It will produce more accurate results. It seems to be a hint of it, but you yourself are introducing more variables.

You should go and test it on yourself, if you go in corner "fast as you can" you'll find in all cases, real-life and simulated only one thing, it's normal mass moving direction, pointing straight out from track, I take out speed prior many corners to get lift-off easier visible. Check start of Nordschleife video or last lap of Tsukuba and you see more normal driving.
Wheel working exactly like on S2000 tests, one turn in, keeping it there and only lifting throttle. That move what you now look is just normal mass transfer, actual turn starts after that. Wheel doesn't rotate more or less during lift-off.

Playing PCARS and AC, the toe is crazy off in GT6 and GTS I just dont understand.

I have looked few settings for those and wondered how in the hell they can put it in simulator role when you have so rough adjustment range on toe (tenth increments). GT6 has numbers from planet earth, AC/PCars not I would never accept four-wheel alignment from company whose values are in tenth increment, how i can get my overall +0.04 toe if smallest value is 0.10 on their systems (is that one side or total??) LOL

 

[ImaRobot]

You should go and test it on yourself, if you go in corner "fast as you can" you'll find in all cases, real-life and simulated only one thing, it's normal mass moving direction, pointing straight out from track, I take out speed prior many corners to get lift-off easier visible. Check start of Nordschleife video or last lap of Tsukuba and you see more normal driving.

You are the one doing the testing, so it would make sense for you to do this test as you initially started the last. That way you compare your results to yourself, in both instances, rather than comparing two different people. Who knows, one of us can have a faulty game pad, so the safe bet would be to do it all in one instance.

If you're lifting before you even turn in, to slow the car down, than what you're experiencing is not lift off oversteer. Lift off oversteer would be way more easily visible in the method that I asked you to test. What you are doing currently is introducing too many situations that could have made it user error, that's why simply driving as fast as you can through a turn, and abruptly lifting the gas(like an off/on switch) would be the best method.

Wheel working exactly like on S2000 tests, one turn in, keeping it there and only lifting throttle. That move what you now look is just normal mass transfer, actual turn starts after that. Wheel doesn't rotate more or less during lift-off.

If the mass transfer happens at the beginning of the turn, its going to effect it all the way through. That's why I was mentioning that.

 

[OdeFinn]

If you're lifting before you even turn in, to slow the car down, than what you're experiencing is not lift off oversteer. Lift off oversteer would be way more easily visible in the method that I asked you to test. What you are doing currently is introducing too many situations that could have made it user error, that's why simply driving as fast as you can through a turn, and abruptly lifting the gas(like an off/on switch) would be the best method.

Well..Not, I didn't lift before turning, test phase was: mass sitting stable on outer wheels, full throttle turning in on constant radius, keeping same constant radius and lifting throttle and car produce lift-off oversteer. (Lift-off oversteer is happening several ways, it's not one precise circumstances happening thing, even lifting, braking, turning on that order produce lift-off oversteer, weren't searching that type, I know.)

Can you say what you exactly want to see, meaning what exact input you want me to give game?

If the mass transfer happens at the beginning of the turn, its going to effect it all the way through. That's why I was mentioning that.

No matter how you drive on corner there's mass trying to go outside of corner, what I did was just moving car mass balance to sit on outer wheels, if I enter corner without doing that then lift-off is getting extra boost from that, so saying at that move only reduces lift-off reactions what I did.