GT4 Better wet simulation than GT6?

[Si-UK]

Sorry if this has been mentioned before but I couldn't find anything in the search.

The graphical representation of rain looks far more realistic in GT4 than it does in GT6! I've tried all changeable weather settings for the tracks in GT6 none of which shows the track surface is wet. See video comparisons below for examples.

GT4:



GT6:



What are your thoughts?

 

[Aquarelle]

Kaz has been over this in an interview last year, it's the same thing with heat waves on Seattle - they just wouldn't be possible with the PS3's hardware; I'd imagine it's the same story with the water effects.

I don't remember the exact details but there was something about the PS2 hardware that allowed for these details that just isn't possible because of the way the PS3 works.. I'm sure someone else understands how this stuff works much better than I do but that's the jist of it.

It's also worth noting that Tsukuba (wet) was a dedicated course, unlike weather in GT5/6 where it's variable and progressive.

 

[Mr_Hansen]

I agree with the rain effects, but though I can't be sure - I agree with Husky, that the PS3 has it's limits (even compared to the PS2)

Here is the article where Yamauchi mentioned it: https://www.gtplanet.net/gran-turismo-6-pushes-ps3-as-far-as-it-can-go/

“When the [PlayStation 2] came out, one unique characteristic of that system was that the screen fill rate was very fast. Even looking back now, it’s very fast. In some cases, it’s faster than the PS3. There, we were able to use a lot of textures. It was able to do that read-modify-write, where it reads the screen, you take the screenshot, and you modify it and send it back. It could do that very quickly.

“I don’t know if anybody remembers, but when the PS2 first came out, the first thing I did on that was a demo for the announcement. I showed a demo of GT3 that showed the Seattle course at sunset with the heat rising off the ground and shimmering. You can’t re-create that heat haze effect on the PS3 because the read-modify-write just isn’t as fast as when we were using the PS2. There are things like that. Another reason is because of the transition to full HD.”

 

[Aquarelle]

“I don’t know if anybody remembers, but when the PS2 first came out, the first thing I did on that was a demo for the announcement. I showed a demo of GT3 that showed the Seattle course at sunset with the heat rising off the ground and shimmering. You can’t re-create that heat haze effect on the PS3 because the read-modify-write just isn’t as fast as when we were using the PS2. There are things like that. Another reason is because of the transition to full HD.”

Cheers, that's the exact thing I was thinking of 👍

 

[IneedSchool]

⠀

 

[Si-UK]

Amazing, you'd expect a new console to include all the foundations from previous hardware architectures and build on them processes. Let's hope PS4 can bring the best of both PS2 & PS3 capabilities to GT7.

 

[ColouredBadger]

If the PS3's hardware is so limited with the wet weather/rain effects then how does this game exist?



I think it's just laziness and trying to go for substance over style with no decent balance between the two. They made the effort to make a dry line system in GT6 so why did they not bother to actually make it visible?

 

[MSTER232]

Am I the only one who's still playing GT4?

 

[eran0004]

Better visuals for sure. But I think the thread title should be changed, because simulation is more about how the car behaves rather than how the track looks.

If the PS3's hardware is so limited with the wet weather/rain effects then how does this game exist?

You can do great things on the PS3, but you can't do very many of them at the same time. F1 2013 can do great rain effects, but it can't do it at 1080p.

 

[TypeRDC5]

The weather effects on GT4 blew me away at the time.
I spent a lot of time on tsukuba in GT4 just for the weather effects considering how much i hate the track!

 

[Aquarelle]

If the PS3's hardware is so limited with the wet weather/rain effects then how does this game exist?

Who knows, perhaps PD couldn't figure it out - or maybe they wanted to do it a particular way and after finding out they couldn't they just didn't bother.

I'm no PD apologist mind, I just think the road effects (or lack thereof) are either them deciding something else deserved the resources more or they simply couldn't figure out a way of doing it efficiently.

 

[IneedSchool]

⠀

 

[LVracerGT]

Cheers, that's the exact thing I was thinking of 👍

That wasn't game play though, it was a technical demo video teaser, IIRC

 

[grashopper]

I think GT6 being able to transition from dry to wet might be the cause. In 4 they probably just had a separate wet looking texture because it just started wet when you loaded the race and stayed wet.

 

[Si-UK]

Better visuals for sure. But I think the thread title should be changed, because simulation is more about how the car behaves rather than how the track looks.

Simulation is the correct word. It is the recreation of something to imitate it.

 

[ColouredBadger]

Better visuals for sure. But I think the thread title should be changed, because simulation is more about how the car behaves rather than how the track looks.



You can do great things on the PS3, but you can't do very many of them at the same time. F1 2013 can do great rain effects, but it can't do it at 1080p.

That is true but I would F1 2013 also has a decent damage model, accurate tyre wear and pitstop model, dynamic weather effects and lighting changes with cloud systems and really good AI, safety car and flag rule systems too. Granted the 1080p thing isn't there but you compare that to GT6 trying to run 1080p and getting 20 or 30fps on some tracks. Surely running 720p and using better visuals is better than struggling to run 1080p?

Again, I've said this in another thread, if they got rid of the duplicate cars and the pointless cars like the Dihatsu Midget as well as the track duplicates then it'll save no end of space in the game to add these kinds of visuals and to find a way of utilizing them at 1080p. I mean, if GT4 can do what it did on a PS2 then GT6 should be able to do nearly double that on PS3. Hopefully GT7 will be able to utilize accurate weather systems and wet tracks as they already have the accurate day/night cycles.

I would happily play GT4 as I still own the game. Unfortunately I do not have a working PS2.

 

[Savolainen83]

To me, the best raintrack so far has been the Special State Route 5 Wet from GT3. Such a beautiful track.

 

[Chrix12]

GT6 got the astronomic simulation stuff so in GT7 weather will probably get the upgrade.

Even though GT6 weather (rain) is not the most simulative, I was still surprised by it yesterday. Don't know if it is in GT5 (most likely is). But it was raining and I stopped to the edge of the track (I was online) to adjust some volume settings. Then I heard the rain hitting the roof of my car (interior view) and I was like "Was that there before?". Even though you don't hear it when driving, it is a nice thing. Relaxing even.

 

[Aquarelle]

GT6 got the astronomic simulation stuff so in GT7 weather will probably get the upgrade.

Even though GT6 weather (rain) is not the most simulative, I was still surprised by it yesterday. Don't know if it is in GT5 (most likely is). But it was raining and I stopped to the edge of the track (I was online) to adjust some volume settings. Then I heard the rain hitting the roof of my car (interior view) and I was like "Was that there before?". Even though you don't hear it when driving, it is a nice thing. Relaxing even.

Yep, this was there in GT5 - it's a very nice touch and I would often just sit there with my surround sound headphones with my eyes closed listening to the rain and the engine idling (Since idling is one of the few times a lot of the engines sound accurate)

 

[ColouredBadger]

If you have a wheel with a clutch you can stall the engine and turn it completely off so you just get environment sounds.

 

[Zuku]

That is true but I would F1 2013 also has a decent damage model, accurate tyre wear and pitstop model, dynamic weather effects and lighting changes with cloud systems and really good AI, safety car and flag rule systems too. Granted the 1080p thing isn't there but you compare that to GT6 trying to run 1080p and getting 20 or 30fps on some tracks. Surely running 720p and using better visuals is better than struggling to run 1080p?

Again, I've said this in another thread, if they got rid of the duplicate cars and the pointless cars like the Dihatsu Midget as well as the track duplicates then it'll save no end of space in the game to add these kinds of visuals and to find a way of utilizing them at 1080p. I mean, if GT4 can do what it did on a PS2 then GT6 should be able to do nearly double that on PS3. Hopefully GT7 will be able to utilize accurate weather systems and wet tracks as they already have the accurate day/night cycles.

I would happily play GT4 as I still own the game. Unfortunately I do not have a working PS2.

Wish someone had told them that once they were making it, but had to have 1200 cars which about 500-700 useless to most folks.

Hopefully GT7 fixes all this though at least I'm hoping it does.

 

[dylpro]

Am I the only one who's still playing GT4?

I'm with ya. PS2 had some amazing games. I spent well over a month trying to fix my PS2s fan issues and disc read errors, but when I finally got it, I went back and played all of my old favourite games. GT4 included of course. Now though, the PS2 works, but I lost my memory card!

 

[Si-UK]

I think GT6 being able to transition from dry to wet might be the cause. In 4 they probably just had a separate wet looking texture because it just started wet when you loaded the race and stayed wet.

If that is true, they should of kept the Tsubuka (Wet) track available in GT6 without the changeable weather system. At least that type of effect looked convincing.

 

[eran0004]

Simulation is the correct word. It is the recreation of something to imitate it.

By that definition, the stage scenery of a play would also be a simulation. It's not. It might be an imitation, but it's not a simulation. Simulations are about processes. Recreation of the visual effects of water on a track is not a simulation, recreation of the behaviour of a car driving on a wet track is.

 

[Vspectra]

If the PS3's hardware is so limited with the wet weather/rain effects then how does this game exist?



I think it's just laziness and trying to go for substance over style with no decent balance between the two. They made the effort to make a dry line system in GT6 so why did they not bother to actually make it visible?

People keep calling PD lazy but it's more of a problem with the hardware. They've already ran into framerate problems getting the game to run a real-time lighting engine and dynamic weather effects. It would be even worse trying to create road reflections. It's not that they don't have the skills to do it, they just can't push the ps3 anymore. They've already shown they're capable of simulating wet pavement with SSR7, but even in GT6 they had to downgrade the wet look compared to GT5.

Gotta wait for PS4 to get this with high-res assets in real-time.

 

[Si-UK]

By that definition, the stage scenery of a play would also be a simulation. It's not. It might be an imitation, but it's not a simulation. Simulations are about processes. Recreation of the visual effects of water on a track is not a simulation, recreation of the behaviour of a car driving on a wet track is.

I'm not talking about a picture or a backdrop in a play, this is a video game and the title is the "simulation" of a wet environment which includes everything which interacts with it be it cars, lighting etc

 

[ThaSyn]

This is exactly what a was thinking. Tarmac doesn't look like it's wet at all.

 

[NICKname]

The way rain behaves on the windshield was updated in 1.03. So no, they're not lazy.

 

[amar212]

If the PS3's hardware is so limited with the wet weather/rain effects then how does this game exsists?

I think it's just laziness and trying to go for substance over style with no decent balance between the two. They made the effort to make a dry line system in GT6 so why did they not bother to actually make it visible?

F1 games have resolution lower than 720p on consoles (upscales to 720p and PS3 versions are especially mess) and have less than 30fps on PS3 especially.

They're moving 3x less polygons per second, so they have space for effects such as dynamic surfaces.

You should educate yourself before postings because you're basically comparing apples with oranges.

@First Post:
Wet surface reflections were very convincing in GT3 as well, on SSR5 track. However, racing was limited to 4 cars only. There is always tradeoff with hadrware, I can't understand why is that so hard to comprehend for many people?

 

[another_jakhole]

@First Post:
Wet surface reflections were very convincing in GT3 as well, on SSR5 track. However, racing was limited to 4 cars only. There is always tradeoff with hadrware, I can't understand why is that so hard to comprehend for many people?

Because this
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Amazing, you'd expect a new console to include all the foundations from previous hardware architectures and build on them processes. Let's hope PS4 can bring the best of both PS2 & PS3 capabilities to GT7.

Not to hang you out to dry, but that is the best example of speaking out of ignorance. I don't mean for that to be offensive. An example of "newer, bigger, stronger" not being "better" would be the original PS3 and the PS4. The PS3 was backwards compatible, but the PS4 isn't. The original PS3 was initially more expensive, bigger, and made a lot of noise. The PS4 is cheaper, lighter, and doesn't sound like a hoover .

The PS2 was difficult to work with, the PS3 was even worse, but the PS4 is a breeze in comparison.