GT4 physics and Group-C cars...

  • Thread starter Thread starter dan0h
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"Based on real life times, the GT4 Minolta should not be faster than the GT4 R8s?"


Yep thats what i'm saying, and also on most games the cars end up faster than in real life.

As for Mr. Herbet in the R8 that was the fastest time recorded ever Round LE Sarth in either the older (no chicanes and no Windy part after the dunlop bridge) or the newer chicaned version. the chicanes would lower the average lap speed considerably to begin with but now the newer cars are braking a lot later, and going fater through the corners.

As for the Minolta winning Formula GT, there is some post in the write up forums on that and also people several times have claimed to have won it in an R8, also not really going to happen in the real world
 
Maybe off-topic, but I don't want to open a thread just for a simple question:

Why does the Minolta-Toyota tyre-screeching all the time? Even at straights, at constant high speed. It's quite annoying, and make it feel quite unrealistic. I set my TC to 5-6, no other driving assist, I play with DS2. I
 
Evilcybrosis
"Based on real life times, the GT4 Minolta should not be faster than the GT4 R8s?"


Yep thats what i'm saying, and also on most games the cars end up faster than in real life...


So if I run practice laps in GT Mode, tuning and tire level being equal, the GT4 Minolta will put up faster lap times than the GT4 R8? That's really the only "fair" comparison. The Minolta or R8 winning the F1 Championship in the game is pretty meaningless...based on the lap times programmed into the AI.

I personally don't like the way the R8 handles in the game, but I'll have to try a test tonight between the two.
 
ZeratulSG
Granted, but I think the point of the statement that F1 cars can drive inverted is to illustrate the levels of downforce involved. That's in theory, assuming no negative factors (like those you're referring to). Whether or not the car actually CAN drive inverted is kinda irrelevant IMO.

Exactly. Stop debating the issue


Samelborp
No, no, no, that's utterly and totally wrong. Nothing defies physics laws (in that case we should rewrite them, which is possible, but don’t happens every day...), when people say "defying physic laws" they should say "taking advantage of physic laws". Now, I understand very well what you mean, but, won't be just better to express yourself correctly?

Again i totally agree. Nothing is being defied, merely EXPLOITED. This i swhy Group C cars feel so unnatural in GT4

Alfaholic
For a modern GP car, Grand Prix 2, without the help of force feedback, gave much better "feel" than the Formula GT in GT4. Plus, at least for me, on all the circuits in Grand Prix 2, lap times were spookily similar to the real formula 1 cars at the time. For me it rates as the best racing game ever.

I don't mean to bash your driving skills but acheiving spookily close lap times is more likely to m ean that something has been compromised on the simulation front, if it were that accurate this would not be possible. If anyone can drive lap times the same as that of RL professional racers then they would themselves be professional racers. Obviously the game has been made easier to drive so that people can appear to get realistc laps.

This goes for any racing game where this is possible.

Skant
Ummm... I actually own the same corvette I drive in the game. And I live an hour and a half from Laguna Seca... and also about an hour and a half from Infineon. :) I can't speak for every car and every track in GT, but I can say that having driven the real thing and virtual thing back to back... the simulation of my car on the local tracks I've been to is pretty damn good. Good enough that I use it to practice for RL events rather extensively.

This is good to hear a definite 👍 for GT4

As for the Minolta being able to beat the Formula GT championship, is this in tuned form? As both (F1) and LMP cars are built for the ultimate combination of downforce (grip) and top speed i see no error that an LMP can beat a fromula GT once given a few extra ponies hence better power to weight ratio.
 
911_gt3_rs
...This is why Group C cars feel so unnatural in GT4...


As if you (or any of the rest of us) had any sort of the vaguest, most remote clue as to what a Group C car is really like...
 
I reckon GT4's got unreal slipstream effex too, because mostly when you use the Group C cars going behind other cars at 230 odd mph, from a long way behind the other car, you can gain about 20mph! In real life maybe 5-8mph, hey. :dunce:
 
Zardoz
As if you (or any of the rest of us) had any sort of the vaguest, most remote clue as to what a Group C car is really like...
I know what 0.80 lateral g feels like. I can extrapolate to 3 g. My armchair gives me exactly 0 g of lateral acceleration. Therefore it feels unrealistic when my on screen car is pulling 3. 💡
 
dan0h
Play GTR on the PC and you'll feel what I mean, the sensation the feedback the subtlety just isnt there.

that anything related to GTR-2002, the free mod for F1 2002 that the simbin dev team made years ago?
if its a new version of that its probably absolutely outstanding... the GTR2002 mod they made was so frickin realistic it made me heel-toe shift on corner entry (my pc wheel has a clutch and shifter) or pay the penalty of loosing the rear.
 
Zardoz
There's no doubt that the Minolta Toyota is the very worst case of what you're talking about. That car is just all effed up. Its glued to the track. Its the biggest joke in the game.

But are all of the Le Mans cars this bad? I'd say not at all. We have to remember how fast the real cars are. How many of us have taken an Audi R8 around a track? Who among us can tell us for sure what it should feel like?

Before we condemn them all as being "arcade cars", maybe we should try to get a handle on what the real ones are like. I compare driving them in GT4 with the in-cockpit view of the real cars on TV, and it doesn't seem that far off to me.

No, they don't feel anything like production cars. Do any of us think they should? Come on, these suckers are fast! So fast, in fact, that they do this:

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/benzCLR1.html

And how far off is the Formula GT car, really? Have you really watched in-cockpit footage of F1 cars in action? Have you looked hard at what they do as they slice through esses? The real cars actually do seem to defy all the laws of physics. Should the GT4 version feel like a stock Impreza?

Are GT4's physics that far off, or are we underestimating what the real cars are like?

I agree, you cant say the LM cars feel les real in comparing them to the feel you got off another video game :crazy:

I got the Minolta tunnned real sweet, check the link in my sig "Rac3rX Tune Shop" for the settings. (She is NO JOKE when Tunned right :crazy: )

I like the LM cars, they are fast as hell :crazy:
 
FOlks, I am simply loving my Driving Force Pro to death!...In fact, Im so happy with it that I was wondering if any of you computer techi geeks got this steering wheel to work with the XBOX with some sort of converter or moddification??

I'd love to use this with FORZA......and while we are on the topic of FORZA, have any of you Driving Purists been able to make comparisons between the driving physics in Forza compared to the physics in GT4?

I know Forza has better AI but I was wondering how you all feel about how FOrza compares to GT 4 in the following areas:

Engine Sounds
Driving Physics
Weight Transfer
Cornering
Braking
Car visuals and realistic replays and actions of motion
Overall Feel of driving


anyone care to compare the two to each other?

thank you so much guys!
 
Toshi
I know what 0.80 lateral g feels like. I can extrapolate to 3 g. My armchair gives me exactly 0 g of lateral acceleration. Therefore it feels unrealistic when my on screen car is pulling 3. 💡


That's because you need the PS2 "g-force/bump-in-road/downforce/handling simulator" add-on module that everybody is using to compare "realism". :rolleyes:

C'mon people, if this game was made "TOTALLY REAL", it would not have it's "mass appeal" because it would be too hard to string 2-laps together without crashing. I mean if people need instructions and tips to just pass license tests and "Missions", how are they going to enjoy a game if they have to employ advanced driving techniques, just to stay on the track? Let alone have to ask about car settings just to make these unrealistic Group C cars "drivable".

Case in point: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=63673

There are still people reluctant to drive the Formula cars because its "too hard". I mean it still is a challenge to drive these things "fast". The "glue" so often talked about isn't that strong. I still crash when I "get it wrong"...and I have some of the faster times on this board. Not saying I'm better than anyone, but just pointing out there is still some level of "control factor" built into the game, and you can't just go around plowing through corners not worring about "getting it wrong".

Unless we all had super computers that can simulate all factors/situations that affect a vehicle on a track, and directly correlate driver input to car reaction, why can't you be happy that the GT series is "one of" the better driving games out, that offer enough interest/enjoyment for many of us to spend countless ours playing? Or posting on a forum about? :) For the $350 to get PS2/GT4/DFP, driving the "multiple" group C, LMP, etc cars, offers more enjoyment and opportunity than most of us can ever get. I'd much rather fire up GT4, than drive 50 miles (one way) to the "local" indoor cart track, and spend $25 for a 10 minute session on a race kart.

rant over. ;)

p.s. - Am I the only one having trouble driving the Black 787? Seriously. That thing is wiggley. Maybe it "also" needs the rigity refresher plan?
 
...

It seems as if some members on this forum spend more time complaining about GT4 then they do actually playing the game. Don't like it? Don't play it...
 
colnago
Mine Schweiz ist schlect...Ich kenne nicht was du schreiben. Ist Schweiz Deutsche? Sweiz Italiano?


Sorry... I thought you were from Zurich, as you wished you were at the Streetparade and also because you are a big Sauber fan, whose factory is in Hinwil, nearby Zurich!
 
colnago
That's because you need the PS2 "g-force/bump-in-road/downforce/handling simulator" add-on module that everybody is using to compare "realism". :rolleyes:

C'mon people, if this game was made "TOTALLY REAL", it would not have it's "mass appeal" because it would be too hard to string 2-laps together without crashing. I mean if people need instructions and tips to just pass license tests and "Missions", how are they going to enjoy a game if they have to employ advanced driving techniques, just to stay on the track? Let alone have to ask about car settings just to make these unrealistic Group C cars "drivable".

Case in point: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=63673

There are still people reluctant to drive the Formula cars because its "too hard". I mean it still is a challenge to drive these things "fast". The "glue" so often talked about isn't that strong. I still crash when I "get it wrong"...and I have some of the faster times on this board. Not saying I'm better than anyone, but just pointing out there is still some level of "control factor" built into the game, and you can't just go around plowing through corners not worring about "getting it wrong".

Unless we all had super computers that can simulate all factors/situations that affect a vehicle on a track, and directly correlate driver input to car reaction, why can't you be happy that the GT series is "one of" the better driving games out, that offer enough interest/enjoyment for many of us to spend countless ours playing? Or posting on a forum about? :) For the $350 to get PS2/GT4/DFP, driving the "multiple" group C, LMP, etc cars, offers more enjoyment and opportunity than most of us can ever get. I'd much rather fire up GT4, than drive 50 miles (one way) to the "local" indoor cart track, and spend $25 for a 10 minute session on a race kart.

rant over. ;)

p.s. - Am I the only one having trouble driving the Black 787? Seriously. That thing is wiggley. Maybe it "also" needs the rigity refresher plan?


Speak for yourself, I love the F1, & The LM cars, I only put them away so there is still a challenge on the track. I drive them too fast, and NOTHING can keep up.

1 the only people who can say that they are less realistic then every other car in the game are people who have driven them. If you havnt, you cant say **** about the realizm over the other cars, so knock that nonsence off.

If you cant control them, work on increasing your driving skillz, because, I aswell as plenty otheres have no issues controling them, and driving them FAST.

Its sad to see people make so many assumptions based on there there unqualified opinions. :crazy:

The cars will suck if you cant tune or drive, that doesnt make them any LESS realistic then the other cars, catagorizing them as "Unrealistic group c cars" is a excuse, for lack of skillz.

N-E-Body with skillz aint *****ing :crazy:

Im not dissing anybody but its the fact of the matter.
 
Zardoz
As if you (or any of the rest of us) had any sort of the vaguest, most remote clue as to what a Group C car is really like...

I said un-natural and not unrealistic because they do feel UN-NATURAL to people lik us who have only ever experienced road cars . I was not claiming that they feel UNREALISTIC because i totally agree that no-one on this board is in any position to tell.

To be utterly honest i am 17 and FIRST driving lesson is not till 1st June, so i can't really comment on anything other than basing it on my knowledge of physics adn i will say tyhat things seem to be in order in GT4 as far as car handling is concerned. I dislike the Group C cars because they are hyper sensitive, i do not think they are unrealistic (as i wouldn't know) and would think that since road cars handle as expect them to P.D were fairly accurate with racing cars too

IMO the problem people have with them is that they do not think it is possible for anything to drive as they do. Although when considering the physics involved it seems quite possible.

Taneras
...

It seems as if some members on this forum spend more time complaining about GT4 then they do actually playing the game. Don't like it? Don't play it...

I like GT4 for it's 'accessible realism'. RL principles can be applied to it and Vice versa (as SKANT verified in his 'vette) although it is still fairly easy to stay on track. I sucked at GTR and gave up before i had completed a full lap on the demo because i just could'nt stay on the track, although i do think that it may partly be down to my DFP not being properly supported by the game. If anyone has set theirs up for it and could tell me how to do it properly i'd gladly give it another go, it may also give me an excuse to rebuild my computer to play it with the specs maxxed.
 
Old race cars versus new race cars... Before assuming that new will always beat old, you should know that every year racing organizations alter the regulations in an attempt to slow the cars down. When speeds get too high and there start being too many life threatening accidents, they will generally respond by wholesale chopping the balls off the cars via regulation changes.

That's why some of the old race cars in GT4 beat the pants off the new ones. It's rather like comparing old cars that had no emission requirements against modern cars that do.

In general, the cars go as fast as the race organizers want them to go. It's not limitted by available technology. If they had no regulations to hold them back, the F1 builders could make cars which were waaaay faster... but the end result would be many deaths.


Here's a little tidbit by the way... it's the same for road cars. Do you think GM can't make a corvette that had twice the horsepower and handling of any ferrari currently on the street? Of course it can. But who would buy it? The corvettes they sell already are too fast for most buyers... nearly every year they have a standard model and a wicked fast model available... and they hardly sell any of the faster models because customers drive them and scare themselves to death with how fast they are. They buy the slower versions instead just for their own safety.

The other thing is... if GM came out with a corvette that was twice as fast as any existing ferrari... you know ferrari would step up to the plate and put out a car that was faster still. And suddenly, it's a very expensive war for the manufacturers... and it ultimately loses them money and eventually draws a backlash for safety concerns and all that, too. Look at the factors that ended the musclecar era.

So yeah... the cars they sell are just as fast as they want them to be. And that's usually just fast enough to be competitive with the other cars in their market segment so that they don't end up starting a war.

I think this has a nice effect in that it tends to equalize the cars from the various manufacturers... which means you can more or less race them against eachother on even footing. I can go to the track with my corvette and race against Lotus, Porsche, Ferrari, whatever... and it generally goes to the better driver. :)

But each of these has a different formula for making performance... the differences make racing more interesting. For example, against the Lotus cars, they're very light, and they have a crisper turn in than my heavier vette. With the wiiiide tires the vette mounts, I can hold a sustained turn just as well as they can, but I'm still not as agile. This means they can brake a little later and still manage the turn in... but being a corvette, I can explode out of the exit of the turn because I have gobs of power available at any rpm and no turbo lag. It makes the duel more interesting because we're strong at different points. I love that!

- Skant
 
STINGER05
colnago
Mine Schweiz ist schlect...Ich kenne nicht was du schreiben. Ist Schweiz Deutsche? Sweiz Italiano?


Sorry... I thought you were from Zurich, as you wished you were at the Streetparade and also because you are a big Sauber fan, whose factory is in Hinwil, nearby Zurich!

Naah, not "from there"...just wish I could get back. :)

- Tchuuss! (<sp?)
 
Rac3rX
Speak for yourself, I love the F1, & The LM cars, I only put them away so there is still a challenge on the track. I drive them too fast, and NOTHING can keep up.

1 the only people who can say that they are less realistic then every other car in the game are people who have driven them. If you havnt, you cant say **** about the realizm over the other cars, so knock that nonsence off.

If you cant control them, work on increasing your driving skillz, because, I aswell as plenty otheres have no issues controling them, and driving them FAST.

Its sad to see people make so many assumptions based on there there unqualified opinions. :crazy:

The cars will suck if you cant tune or drive, that doesnt make them any LESS realistic then the other cars, catagorizing them as "Unrealistic group c cars" is a excuse, for lack of skillz.

N-E-Body with skillz aint *****ing :crazy:

Im not dissing anybody but its the fact of the matter.


:confused:

I don't understand. You quote me, then start to disagree with me, then go on support everything I just said. You do realize that we are on the same side of this issue?

Again, "I" personally love that GT4 has more LMP type cars available...it's "the only" reason I picked it up, having the previous 3 versions as well. For all intents and purposes, PD did a "good enough" job in their execution to:

a) not make the cars' experience seem too "Arcade-like"
b) not make driving the cars too easy

As for not being able to drive or tune, if that was directed at me, I feel that I have a general understanding of at least the basic fundamentals of driving and tuning. (see colnago @ >GTPlanet Leaderboard >GT Mode >Apricott Hill, Grand Valley, Suzuka, Tokyo R246) \

As far as my statment about the Black Mazda 787, it just has a weird body-roll/ snap over-steer handling issue that the normal livery version doesn't, which I haven't "resolved"...but I have only driven it once.

I only feel that "there are those who do have trouble" with these cars to point out that there is some level of difficulty (or at least a learning curve which must be negotiated) with the faster/more complex cars. Yet it isn't so hard that it discourages the "casual driver/fan", while keeping the interest of the more advanced players.

Enjoy your driving.
:cheers:
 
Oh btw... with the inverted F1 car thing... yes, they easily generate enough downforce to run on an inverted track (if such a thing existed). And yes, they can deliver fuel, oil, etc even while upsidedown... but not indefinately.

This type of thing is an issue for RL racing even without inverted tracks. Track features like long sustained turns and elevation changes can interrupt fuel and oil delivery in standard road cars because of their reliance on gravity. Race cars (and modified street cars) incorporate systems that allow them to continue working regardless of which direction 'gravity' is currently pointing such as baffled racing oil pans and accusumps. However, as far as I know, all of these systems can only operate for a short period of time before exhausting themselves... they have to be 'replenished' by a return to normal gravity for at least a moment at some point.

For instance, an accusump is basically a giant syringe with a spring on one side which draws pressurized oil in when the engine is running normally until its tube is full... and that oil stays there as long as the engine has oil pressure. When the engine oil pressure drops to zero (because the g forces have starved the oil pump), there's no longer any pressure holding back the spring and the syringe of oil pushes oil back into the system. As soon as the oil pressure is back, it will naturally fill up the giant syringe again.

Similar kinds of systems are used for fuel delivery so that race cars can use every last drop and don't suffer the motor cutting out momentarily on hard turns when the fuel tank is a quarter full or less.

But basically, all of these schemes rely on gravity pointing the right way at least every so often.

So... you couldn't run an F1 car on a completely inverted track. But you could run it on a track that had an elongated corkscrew to achieve an inverted condition for a few seconds... and then back down to normal orientation again.

Heck... if you think about it for a moment... an F1 car running on a normal track experiences well in excess of -1.0 g when it's coming over the crest of a hill at high speed. That's no different than running actually upsidedown. So it should be apparent that they have to handle this stuff already. But only for short periods of time.

- Skant
 
Skant
Here's a little tidbit by the way... it's the same for road cars. Do you think GM can't make a corvette that had twice the horsepower and handling of any ferrari currently on the street? Of course it can. But who would buy it? The corvettes they sell already are too fast for most buyers... nearly every year they have a standard model and a wicked fast model available... and they hardly sell any of the faster models because customers drive them and scare themselves to death with how fast they are. They buy the slower versions instead just for their own safety.

The other thing is... if GM came out with a corvette that was twice as fast as any existing ferrari... you know ferrari would step up to the plate and put out a car that was faster still. And suddenly, it's a very expensive war for the manufacturers... and it ultimately loses them money and eventually draws a backlash for safety concerns and all that, too. Look at the factors that ended the musclecar era.
I disagree. GM could make a car that was competitive with Ferrari's best, but the don't not because of safety concerns but because of price point. Corvettes are $40-60k generally, and the market would not bear having the next generation 'Vette all of sa sudden jump up to $200k.

Furthermore, the Z06 is selling just fine. http://lang.motorway.com/home/articles/chevycorvette.asp suggest that ~20% of Corvettes are Z06 models.

Finally, let me state again that GM is not competing with Ferrari, so your final paragraph is ridiculous. There's no moratorium among manufacturers. Rather, each one tries to make the best car that they can at their chosen price point, whether $50k for a Corvette or $500k for an Enzo.
 
911_gt3_rs
I sucked at GTR and gave up before i had completed a full lap on the demo because i just could'nt stay on the track, although i do think that it may partly be down to my DFP not being properly supported by the game. If anyone has set theirs up for it and could tell me how to do it properly i'd gladly give it another go, it may also give me an excuse to rebuild my computer to play it with the specs maxxed.
Yeah, it takes some tweaking to get it right. In the Logitech driver setup, set the rotation to 540 degrees (or as close as you can get the slider). I found this to be the most effective setting. Then play around with the steering sensitivity and the speed-sensitive steering sliders in the GTR settings screen, until you find the best balance between stability at speed and agility in cornering (I can't remember what my settings were for this, I'll check tonight).

Also, make sure you turn off all the steering aids in GTR, like cornering assist. I generally play with everything off except auto clutch. Try with the Elise or the BMW Z3M to dial in the settings.
 
Toshi
I disagree. GM could make a car that was competitive with Ferrari's best, but the don't not because of safety concerns but because of price point. Corvettes are $40-60k generally, and the market would not bear having the next generation 'Vette all of sa sudden jump up to $200k.

Price point and performance are surprisingly unrelated figures. The Porsche GT3 costs 3 times as much as the Corvette Z06, but their performance on the track is essentually identical.

My point is that manufacturers make the cars go as fast as their customers want, not as fast as they can possibly make them go. With only $10-20k aftermarket alterations, the vette easily outperforms the stock half million dollar cars put out by Ferrari, Porsche, etc while still costing only a small fraction. And that's because price point is affected by many other factors besides actual speed.

This isn't just true for the vette... lots of cars can be made substantially faster for only a small outlay of cash. And it's not because the engineers don't know what they're doing.

So I maintain that the cars are just as fast as manufacturers want them to be. And manufacturers want them to be just as fast as their customers want. And there is a limit to that. Notice that even for the folks on the forums here they decide that the rediculously fast cars in the game are not much fun to drive.... and they don't even have to worry about paying for them or dying or anything. It's just too much car for them to handle.

When you get into the big time sports cars in RL, that immediately becomes a factor. I've offered to let some of my friends who have other sports cars drive my vette, and they decline because they find their own sports cars difficult enough to handle as it is... they doubt their ability to handle a car with nearly twice as much power...

You know... it sounds neat to drive around in a car that can light up the tires at 80mph... but when you really drive one in RL, there are certain realities of that situation that become apparent right away...

Just one slip at the controls could be real bad news.

Furthermore, the Z06 is selling just fine. http://lang.motorway.com/home/articles/chevycorvette.asp suggest that ~20% of Corvettes are Z06 models.

Yeah, that's a recent phenomina. The buying public has become more interested in performance lately. Notice that Chevy has responded to this by bringing out the new C6 Z06 with 500 horses under the hood _stock_.

It is not very difficult for a vette to get 500 horses out of that V8 block (come now... just look at the horsepower manufacturers are pulling out of tiny 4 cylinder engines. When you apply those same techniques to small block V8's, it produces horsepower in the four digits). So it's not like it took them until now to be able to to do it. The difference is the public wanted it. A decade ago, the public would not have bought a 500hp version.

But they want it now. So they get it.


Finally, let me state again that GM is not competing with Ferrari, so your final paragraph is ridiculous. There's no moratorium among manufacturers. Rather, each one tries to make the best car that they can at their chosen price point, whether $50k for a Corvette or $500k for an Enzo.

There isn't a formal agreement among them, sure. But one of the realities of business is that if one company severely undercuts the others, it turns into a bloody struggle for survival with all of the companies involved trying to knock eachother completely out of the industry.

Businesses definately want to beat their competitors. But it turns into something different when a powerful competitor believes that it's kneck is on the chopping block. It can lead to struggles like occured in the hard drive industry where the margins actually went negative and drives were being sold for less than it cost to build them. Have you noticed that there are a lot fewer names on hard drives these days? That industry almost completely collapsed.

Oh... and... if you think GM isn't competing with Ferrari, you haven't been watching the Le Mans races...


Now... all that being said, I don't totally disagree with your points. You do make a good argument. Price points do have an effect on the equation... but I'm pointing out that the total equation is much more complex than that, and price point doesn't effect performance as much as one would expect. The world of the automotive industry is a complex beast for sure. And I doubt that either of our points of view on the subject is entirely correct.

- Skant
 
the real 6c
why can't i stop reading this thread? its like the horribly bloody crash on the interstate...you don't want to look, but you can't look away

Kinda got just a bit off-topic, didn't it?
 
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