GT5 2.02 Tire Wear [HARD DATA ANALYSIS FOR SUPER GT]

[PAPPACLART]

Nice write up, thanks for putting the effort in.

To me it just seems dumb having to change tyre after only a few laps if I say wanted to use RS tyres. Not to mention all of the Race tyres having a small window where you can put in fast and consistent times with the grip levels/performance dropping relatively quick for all tyres, especially so if you use a PAD.

I really don't like the new tyres after 2.02 but to keep all happy I do hope PD will include a slider, so we can set tyre wear dependin on race length as well as perhaps bring the grip of the tyres a little closer as it is too large now IMO.

Also, as a PAD user it is impossible not to steer too much as my D pad steering is full lock to lock. Some Pad users use the Sticks but many don't. We were already at a slight dissadvantage vs a good wheel user with regards to tyre wear, now it is allot worse fo us especially in big powerful cars.

 

[Padracer99]

Nice write up, thanks for putting the effort in.

To me it just seems dumb having to change tyre after only a few laps if I say wanted to use RS tyres. Not to mention all of the Race tyres having a small window where you can put in fast and consistent times with the grip levels/performance dropping relatively quick for all tyres, especially so if you use a PAD.

I really don't like the new tyres after 2.02 but to keep all happy I do hope PD will include a slider, so we can set tyre wear dependin on race length as well as perhaps bring the grip of the tyres a little closer as it is too large now IMO.

Also, as a PAD user it is impossible not to steer too much as my D pad steering is full lock to lock. Some Pad users use the Sticks but many don't. We were already at a slight dissadvantage vs a good wheel user with regards to tyre wear, now it is allot worse fo us especially in big powerful cars.

My pace is still quicker with f2007 with pad than anybody else , the disadvantage is the the tire wear but the pace makes up for the wear still. Driving style is a bit exaggerated with pad , that's why the pace can be fastest if your very good with pad but I think the sensitivity and toe can make a difference for the steering.

Soft tires wear much more when you have smoke coming out or when you see the front tire going red on a corner or your rear going red on start. In reality if you keep overheating your tires like that for the corners , soft compounds won't last for 2 laps.

The problem is people who would steer the car beyond what the tire and car would allow , soft compounds will wear much faster under a red tire smoke state. I could already see the problem this creates for people who like to steer so much through a corner and not to mention maximum set up.

Its not exaggerated but its simply realistic , its proven given the real Le Mans 24h data of the 908 and R18. You have to consider re evaluating your exaggerated driving style and exaggerated setup.

This eliminates exaggerated pace with realism.

 

[PAPPACLART]

My pace is still quicker with f2007 with pad than anybody else , the disadvantage is the the tire wear but the pace makes up for the wear. Driving style is a bit exaggerated with pad , that's why the pace can be fastest if your very good with pad but I think the sensitivity and toe can make a difference for the steering.

You might be an Alien with the PAD, but many within the club I race in that are fast with a PAD have to put allot of effort into set up with tail happy powerful cars yet none of the PAD users are great on tyres. We have a few wheel users that are average on tyres also but some wheel users that can 1 or 2 stop a race where we pad users do a 2-3 stop. Now with 2.02 the gap is larger.

Like all of us, I want the chance to race in long races with a proper tyre strategy, with the new update it is kind of possible, but means multiple stops which is simply not realistic and breaks up the field.

Like I said in another thread, we recently ran a GT500 race prior to the 2.02 update at Grand Valley which was 38 laps. Some of us did a 3 stop and others did a 2 stop. With the new update, if we ran the same race again, and I chose RS tyres I would have to do at least6 stops. RM at least 4-5 stops RH maybe 3 stops if I am lucky.

IMO how it should be, if running the same 38 lap race. RS guys should maybe have to do 2 stops, RM guys should 1 stop, and RH guys should be able to complete all 38 with no stops. To achieve this the performance in terms of grip needs to be brought closer together between the tyres as well as upping the tyre lives of each to make this all possible.

Of course though, for 5-10 laps races everyone would still go for softs, and this is why we need a slider.


Edit.

Also, Another way to do it. Tyres dont have to be soo differnet that you have to pit more times then if on softer tyres.


As an example, in Moto GP where there are no pit stops. Some riders will go out on a medium or hard compound, while others will go out on a softer compound. The soft compound will be quicker for 1 half the race, but near the end of the race, the Medium or harder compound come into there own, and start to offer more grip over the softer compound.

 

[chuyler1]

👍 its good to see that GT5 is heading towards the right direction , very realistic for real distance racing.

Heading in the right direction, yes. Very realistic? No. Although I welcome this new addition, they really need to add a setting for it. Endurance races where you have to pit every 8 laps for fresh tires is not realistic. Le Mans cars pit every 10-12 laps for fuel...and will run their tires for 4-5 stints before changing them. We can't even pit for fuel only.

 

[diptob79]

Nice write up..

Did you notice the tire consumption difference between front and rear wheel? I suggest you test that because it will be interesting.. well don't use recommended car because you need to change car setup I have an LMP car that previously was front tire-hungry but now its the rear one that quickly chewed.

Currently I'm finding that combination of Front:RS and Rear:RM is pretty much optimum.

So I guess mr Kaz had us "playing" again, huh?

 

[chuyler1]

Front tires wore down slightly faster than rears. The car remained stable the entire time but if I were to tune it, I would have introduced a little oversteer to get it to slide a little into corners. Drop the rear toe a little and introduce some more camber. However, that would have likely introduced too much rear tire wear.

In any case, tuning is another topic all together. Once you find a good tune for your car, I think you'll have to run a similar test to see how your numbers add up. It's always good to have a baseline first though. The days of one-lap wonder tunes dominating a race are over. Drivers will have to do more lengthly testing before committing a particular tune to race day.

What we need next is a way to tweak tunes during pit stops. I don't care if it adds time to my pit stop. Give me the ability to make some changes and I would have more fun on a 24hr race.

 

[PAPPACLART]

Front tires wore down slightly faster than rears. The car remained stable the entire time but if I were to tune it, I would have introduced a little oversteer to get it to slide a little into corners. Drop the rear toe a little and introduce some more camber. However, that would have likely introduced too much rear tire wear.

In any case, tuning is another topic all together. Once you find a good tune for your car, I think you'll have to run a similar test to see how your numbers add up. It's always good to have a baseline first though. The days of one-lap wonder tunes dominating a race are over. Drivers will have to do more lengthly testing before committing a particular tune to race day.

What we need next is a way to tweak tunes during pit stops. I don't care if it adds time to my pit stop. Give me the ability to make some changes and I would have more fun on a 24hr race.

If you have the time, it would be good to run the same test again but with a tune as you describe.

It looks like to conserve tyres we will now have to run with really tame understeering tunes to conserve tyres but will likely hurt the fronts if we do that This is something that allot of pad users do anyway, but will have to do so more to offset tyre wear on the rears but will get more on the fronts. It will be a no win situation for many and will result in cars we do not enjoy driving as much becuase of the tame tunes we will have to adopt.

Prior to the update, I would often tune powerfull cars to turn in nicely, but be able to get on the power hard and early, sometimes at the expsense of tyres if I wanted slightly faster lap times and a more enjoyable car to drive. This was and has always been a juggling act, being clever with camber/toe and diff settings that encourage good turn in but limit too much oversteer/wheelspin on the power. Prior to the update this would take allot of time if I wanted to be competative with some of the faster guys I race with, but now will be even tougher and take longer I suspect.

 

[killerjimbag]

Start a new thread if you want to discuss NASCAR. This thread obviously states "SUPER GT" in the title. Super Speedways have a whole other set of variables. Drafting for one, will allow you to keep up with sports tires. You can't do that at GP/F.

I respect your opinion, but I also Race Super GT and I race on Daytona and Indy Road course's. There is all kinds of drafting on these courses using Super GT cars.Now that is the difference I was trying to point out.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

Excellent, Huyler.

 

[chuyler1]

If you have the time, it would be good to run the same test again but with a tune as you describe.

I think the results will be similar but lap times would just be better across the board. Laps later in the run might be a little more consistent, but when you lose grip up front, it doesn't matter how the car is tuned, your lap times will suffer. I will run more tests if I have a league race, but this takes a long time and unless I am tuning a specific car for a specific length race I won't go through all the effort. I may, if I find time, try out High Speed Ring. It's the fastest non-oval track I can think of that a Super GT driver would be willing to race on.

I respect your opinion, but I also Race Super GT and I race on Daytona and Indy Road course's. There is all kinds of drafting on these courses using Super GT cars.Now that is the difference I was trying to point out.

I understand that, which is why the OP mentions the following...

This test can only be taken in context of a stock tune on Nurburgring GP/F. Other tracks and tunes will likely affect tire wear differently. A race at any super speedway where drafting is easier to do will definitely sway preference toward harder tires that last longer, maybe even Sports tires.

So like I said, NASCAR is an entirely different topic as are speedways. Super GT at Daytona Road Course is something we can discuss, but your post mentioned "try doing 20 laps at Daytona in a Nascar" which is out of scope for this discussion. There will definitely be drafting opportunities at DRC and IRC but with the weak draft setting used by most leagues, it will be tough for drivers to stay with cars on softer tires through the infield. The double-hairpin at Indy alone is enough to cause a driver on RH tires to lose the draft of a driver on RS tires.

 

[JDMKING13]

I think another way you are wasting grip is using abs on a GT500 race car. With ABS off you can make the tires go longer especially the RH. I'm shocked on how many people use RS. Electronics aids are not allowed in that series.

 

[parabulla]

In the last few days driving with the new update, my general impression is that the softs wear faster, the hards slower, and the mediums haven't changed.

 

[Spagetti69]

I haven't played so excuse my ignorance.

How would Sports soft compared to Racing hards compare in wear values.
Which would last longer?

Thanks.

 

[jaydubs]

How would Sports soft compared to Racing hards compare in wear values. Which would last longer?

Well, SS would certainly outlast RH, but as OP pointed out when comparing RH to RS, the discrepancy in lap times would be such that it wouldn't justify going with Sports over Racing just to gain durability. We are talking drastic change in grip and lap times

 

[esio trot]

A nice piece of objective analysis there Chuyler. I have been trying to carry out my own research but this basically says it all and the graphs illustrate the tyre wear situation and the RS, RM, RH comparison perfectly.

I appreciate this so a big thank you.

Thanks to Pappa (GBRC) for pointing me in this direction too.

 

[eran0004]

Another benefit from using RS tires is that you can take 10 liters (or so) of fuel as well, for each pit stop without any extra time, which means that after 15 laps, the RS car would have 10 liters more fuel than RM and 20 liters more than RH. This means that once the RH car goes into pit, it has to stay longer for refueling than the RM, and the RM has to stay longer than the RS.

 

[MaDHaX]

very nice analysis and a good read, I am glad they are doing something about the tyre wear on each compound which in my view should have already been there, however I think that RS tyres should be able to last longer and judging from your work RH tyres need to be a little grippier. I know how hard it must be to make a perfectly balanced system but I think having the tyres have PP would be the way to go in my opinion (they had it in GT5P). Obviously with that option on a long distance race with no PP would be like adjusting downforce so it will be intresting to see with or without PP.

My conclusion is add 15-20% durability on all tyres and make RH have abit more grip make the tyres have PP in PP races which you can switch off when you have BHP/KG races.

 

[Rotorist]

Now you open a big issue about GT5 pit-stops. What mind calculated the time to refuel a car? 2 litres per second? Really???

 

[chuyler1]

I think another way you are wasting grip is using abs on a GT500 race car. With ABS off you can make the tires go longer especially the RH. I'm shocked on how many people use RS. Electronics aids are not allowed in that series.

I understand your desire to keep things realistic since most race cars don't use ABS. However most GT5 racers who race with no ABS usually tweak the brake balance to lower settings which prevent lock up. It's the same thing as using abs. It just requires a little extra finesse with the brake pedal to prevent the tires from locking up.

As for tire wear, ABS by design should reduce and even out tire wear. At the same time it will shorten braking distances and corresponding lap times. That is its function, and to say otherwise implies a lack of understanding of how ABS works.

Anyway, I have no doubt that turning ABS off will change the lap times and possibly the number of laps on each tire. But one can only assume they will change for RS tires just as much as RH tires. And I venture to guess the changes would not make you competitive with the lap times I posted using ABS.

 

[WonkyFonk]

So last night I ran 3 30 lap sprints by myself and saved the replays.

Nice analysis mate, my sleepy head took a while to figure it out, but got it eventually

One small question - when you say '3 30 lap sprints', do you mean '30 minute' sprints?

 

[chuyler1]

One small question - when you say '3 30 lap sprints', do you mean '30 minute' sprints?

Yes, whoops, let me correct that.

 

[chuyler1]

Another benefit from using RS tires is that you can take 10 liters (or so) of fuel as well, for each pit stop without any extra time

Ahh, great point! I will add that to the OP!

 

[Infinital-NG]

Great info chuyler.

Thanks

 

[yoman297]

So basically I'm guessing the RH pitstop would be the next lap?

 

[chuyler1]

So basically I'm guessing the RH pitstop would be the next lap?

If the race was going to be longer, for my RH run I would have pitted on lap 12 or 13. Laps 14 and 15 were horrible because the tread dropped below 10%. But since a pit stop was required, I would have just stopped on lap 7-8 so I got the most out of the fresh tires. It wouldn't have helped me beat the driver on RM tires but it would have been a more graceful finish.

 

[diablo6vt]

Great analysis, thanks. Having data's much better than talking around in circles.

Now is there any chance you'd repeat your analysis for LMP cars, around say the 24h Ring

 

[Jump_Ace]

Good reading. But softer tires also help limit driver mistakes with missed braking points and such,easier/quicker recovery. But the data shows what I've always thought to be; softer tires in GT are just about always the tire to choose.

The data easily shows that PD needs to put more attention to their hard tires. I think they concentrated on making them less grippy, while at the same time making soft tires last too long.

Jerome

 

[chuyler1]

Now is there any chance you'd repeat your analysis for LMP cars, around say the 24h Ring

I've actually never driven a LMP car in this game. I usually stick to the slower cars for online racing since it adds more excitement when drivers can race bumper to bumper. It would take some practice before I could put down consistent lap times in one of the LMP cars.

 

[ferhound]

Great and complete work! this is an obligatory topic about tyres.

 

[tribolik]

Great update in terms of strategy... if in lap 11 on RH or RM tyres the OP had pitted for softs he would have finished first... so it seems the RS is no longer the tyre to go to in terms of strategy but depending on the race distance combining the 2 or 3 types is probably the best way to go.