GT5:P demo vs PGR4 vs Forza 2 Video

[Earth]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANMnFXTP1oo


Quick story. When I watched my first blu-ray movie I said, yeah, nice picture and everything, but how much better is it then DVD? Then I watched the 480p DVD quality extras and it hit me like a ton of bricks how much the 1080p blu-ray picture was better

This video had a similiar effect. I knew Gran Turismo 5 looked nice but after seeing it compared to it's 2 closest rivals...there is no comparison. The coloring, lighting, detail, and overall quality is vastly superior in the GT5 demo. Sure this is a low quality youtube video, but the difference is quite obvious

And as for the sound...in that video the Lancer sounds far far more realistic then both Forza or PGR4

And let's not forget all though the lighting, coloring, detail (200,000 polygons per car in GT5 compared to PGR4's 80,000) is better in the demo PD still managed to run the game at a higher resoultion and have more cars on track then both Forza 2 and PGR 4

 

[Lain]

Nice video. GT5 Prologue Demo is definitely the best looking of the bunch.

 

[Quiet_Storm]

Car details and animation: GT5P blows away the competition in this department. Forza 2 isn't even closed to competing in this department. PGR4 looks beautiful but still has to take 2nd place to GT5P.

Track details: I have to give it up to PGR4 because they have some of the most detailed and realistic "looking" city/race tracks (they really take their time with this). Not really fair to compare since it's a finished game and GT5P is still a work in progress which has potential to top PGR4 in this department as well. I'm keeping my fingers crossed on that one! Forza 2 background? That's a joke to even compare anything graphic wise with Forza 2 because Turn10 didn't do a very good job in this department at all. Lighting, car modeling, car animation and track details in Forza 2 looks like it belongs on an Xbox1.5, not the 360.

Engine/Crash/Tire sounds: I'll have to give this to Forza 2 because they really nail most of the sounds in the game, minus the race cars which sounds a little tame compared to their real life counterpart. PGR4 sounds good but not realistic at all. GT5P did pretty good with most of the Japanese cars and the Ferrari but still needs a lot of work on American V8s. The STi also needs work because it just doesn't sound like a boxer engine, in my opinion, especially at low RPMs where it should be very distinctive. PD also needs to work on the car sounds during replays. When it's in TV camera mode, you can barely hear the cars, even the Ferrari which should be very loud when it's ripping past the camera. Too much wind noise and not enough car noises.

GT5 (and Prologue) is still a work in progess and with almost a year until the final release, PD can do wonders as far as background details and sounds go. Engine sounds are an improvement over GT4 but they still need to work on the sounds of American V8s and the V10 in the Viper. Not only that, they should lower the pitch of the tire sound which would make it a lot more realistic. I agree that the lighting in GT5P is better than the other 2.

 

[Div is back]

And as for the sound...in that video the Lancer sounds far far more realistic then both Forza or PGR4

Are you kidding me?
That Lancer sounded like a GT3 weedeater, please.

 

[Beerz]

Visuals aside (I find GT the best looking of them all - not judging from this video only), that has to be some of the worst driving ever. In any of the games.



















Really.

 

[Tenacious D]

they should lower the pitch of the tire sound in large cars with large tires which would make it a lot more realistic.

I think this is what it should be. I still insist that the tire sounds on small to medium sized cars, Skyline or smaller, are about right.

I have to agree, that driver is just painful to watch.

 

[Quiet_Storm]

Large cars/tires or not, pitch is still too high, not enough "bark" and just sounds too soft and flat. That's why it sounds painful to the ears.


Real life...

STi = Good boy's car
Evo = Man's car.


GT5P


If you think these sounds the same then I give up.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

If you think that is even a remotely accurate way of comparring sounds I give up as well.

 

[Quiet_Storm]

What would be an accurate way of comparing sounds since you seem to know everything?

It's a video of how a car should sound and a video that has sounds from a game. I know it won't be a perfect comparison but you can definitely tell that the GT5P sounds are lacking.

 

[Lain]

Calm down kiddies. Digital-Nitrate, you're right about the comparison not being 100% accurate. But Quiet_Storm, you're also right that the comparison isn't 100% inaccurate. Let's just say that the sounds should probably be fixed by GT5's release and move on... it's not like the sounds are better in any of the other games, and this is a thread about GT5 vs Forza 2 vs PGR4, so... yeah.

 

[Tenacious D]

I'll say it once again. I live near a busy intersection just over a hill, and periodically I hear tire squeals from accidents or near misses that sound extremely close to GT4's tire sounds.

I'm unaware of any game which made me sit up and go "Wow, that's spot on."

By the way, I'm unable to see links to videos for some reason until I reinstall Windoze.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

What would be an accurate way of comparing sounds since you seem to know everything?

I definietly do not know everything, far from it, but I know enough about how sounds can and do change depending on many different factors, especially when you are trying to evalute sounds from highly compressed recordings of not identical sources and conditions.

To save time though...

Here we go again with the old "go listen to it on YouTube" excuse.

• Please, tell me this, how do you know for sure if a car on a YouTube video has been modified in any way?
  
  
• How do you know for sure if it has not been tuned in any way other than stock?
  
  
• How do you know for sure the car is right off the assembly line?
  
  
• Are you aware that a car over time can, and usually do experience changes in their "sound"?
  
  
• Are you aware that even two cars of the exact same model can and often do sound slightly different?
  
  
• How do you know for sure what the RPMs were at?
  
  
• Are you aware that cars will sound differently depending on the acoustics of the area they are in, the ambient temperatures, the condition of the engine, etc, etc etc?
  
  
• How do you know for sure where exactly the microphone was placed to record the sound? With zoom lenses, and seperate mics, it could be any where, right?
  
  
• Are you aware that the type of recording equipment used to "capture" the sound will effect how it sounds when played back?
  
  
• How do you know for sure the exact type of recording equipment that was used?
  
  
• How do you know for sure if the audio has at all been modified on a YouTube video?
  
  
• Are you aware that YouTube uses compression schemes that can and does lower the quality of the audio, and especially the video?

There are more variables as well... but I seriously hope any number of these should be ample evidence that comparing what you hear from some internet video is in no conceivable way a reasonable comparison for what a car "should sound like".

We got it... you have a strong personal opinion/preference for a particular kind of sound... perhaps you want all cars to sound like YouTube videos... but please do not continue to suggest that this is in any way an accurate way of determining whether a recorded car sound is the same as the real thing. There are simply far too many variables for it to be anything but a subjective opinion.

As for what would be an accurate way of comparing sounds, the obvious answer is to eliminate as many variables as possible.

For instance, in the YouTube videos you provided as "proof" that the tire sound in GT5 was wrong, ask yourself the following questions:

• Are both cars identical?
• Are they using the exact same tires?
• Are the tire tempertures identical?
• Are the tire pressures identical?
• Are they driving on the exact same track?
• Is the track temperature identical?
• Are the track surfaces identical?
• Are the sounds recorded from the exact same position? (there is a big difference between the sounds one hears inside a car and several feet away from the track)
• Are the sounds recorded using the exact same recording equipment?
• Are the sounds processed in the exact same way?

If you answered "No" to any of these, or even "I Don't know", then you certainly can't say that this is in any way an accurate comparison and certainly not proof of anything regarding which if not both are close to what you would hear "live" while sitting in the position where the camera and mic are presumably positioned.

Calm down kiddies. Digital-Nitrate, you're right about the comparison not being 100% accurate.

Fair enough, it just gets very tiresome to keep seeing so many people trying to compare sounds from such drastically different sources and conditions, and then proclaiming this as some kind of proof one sound is more "accurate" than another.

As I have said before, I'm not at all saying PD have and will continue to provide the most accurate car sounds in a video game, only that much of the "judgment" people have used to say yeah or neigh is largely based on very subjective opinion, and not accurate objective facts.

 

[Quiet_Storm]

So you're saying different brand tires or compound will have different sounds to them? I don't know about you but I've been to many racing events and have also participated in Auto Crossing and Road Racing events and there really isn't much of a difference between different tires. The sound difference will come from how fast the tire spinning out and weight on the tires when it's spinning out. That's the only time I can tell the difference in pitch and tone. The sounds in the Demo just seems to be one pitch and one tone that also sounds like it has no weight on the tires. The only difference I notice was at a drag racing event where the funny cars with their huge slicks were doing burnouts. We don't have any funny cars or top fuel cars in the game do we?

I'm not basing (is this even a word?) my judgement on just a couple of youtube videos. I'm also basing my judgement on 7+ years of participating in drag racing, Auto Crossing and Road Racing events. Compressed videos or not, it still shows the difference between a real life video and GT5. I don't know for sure but I doubt people who upload these videos would take their time out to digitally alter the engine and tire sounds. That's just silly!

Angle also makes a difference, I know that. I've been in my car and various other cars with different tires and compound (H-rating to Hoosier Slicks) and it doesn't sound anything like when I'm playing the GT5P Demo. Now, I know someone will come in and say "it's just a demo" and get their panties all in a bunch but before you do, I know it's just a demo.

As for Tenacious D saying that it sounds like what he hears on the highway next to him when someone is about to crash. Yes, the pitch will be very high (similar to GT's tire sound) when you're doing 60mph and your tires aren't spinning (if you have no ABS). When you're going around a corner with a lot of load on the outside tires and your tires are squeeling, it will sound nothing like the sound a car's tires make in an "oh s*** I'm going to die" slam on your brakes before you rear end someone on the highway situation.

Now you're going to tell me that being at a racing event is completely different and shouldn't be compared to how a videogame should sound like, right?

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

So you're saying different brand tires or compound will have different sounds to them? I don't know about you but I've been to many racing events and have also participated in Auto Crossing and Road Racing events and there really isn't much of a difference between different tires.

I won't even attempt to try and understand what you consider "much of a difference", but yes, these are factors that effect the sounds tires make... among other things.

The sound difference will come from how fast the tire spinning out and weight on the tires when it's spinning out.

That is also another factor... which also often makes these types of comparisons flawed.

The only difference I notice was at a drag racing event where the funny cars with their huge slicks were doing burnouts. We don't have any funny cars or top fuel cars in the game do we?

No, but apparently you are choosing to ignore/dismiss all the factors I listed above that can effect the sound tires make, and how the way sounds are "captured" and played back will be different - even when they are all from actual recordings of real cars in real race situations.

I don't know for sure but I doubt people who upload these videos would take their time out to digitally alter the engine and tire sounds. That's just silly!

Besides the fact that it wouldn't be the first time, regardless of how silly it might be, but sounds are also effected by the location of the mic, recording equipment used, compression, playback, etc.

Now, I know someone will come in and say "it's just a demo" and get their panties all in a bunch but before you do, I know it's just a demo.

That's not at all what I am saying. All I am saying is that the comparison you used is in no way an accurate proof that PD's tire sounds are inaccurate.

This is a tiresome argument, especially when you start throwing in unsubstantiated subjective opinions to try and show some kind of proof, so at this point I'll just have to agree to disagree and move on to another topic.

 

[Quiet_Storm]

Fair enough, I'm with you on the agree to disagree. I also want to apologize to the OP for taking this way off topic since this thread was about the graphical differences in the 3 different games. I agree that the GT5P demo has the best looking cars and animation but like I said in my previous post, PGR4 takes the cake in background and track details.

D-N: Sorry if any of my post seem to have came across as harsh or disrespectful towards you. Wasn't my intention at all and you do seem to know a lot and I have learn a few things from debating and discussing things with you so that's always a plus in my book of pluses and minuses. 👍


Edit: Holy run-on sentence, Batman!

 

[Tenacious D]

As for Tenacious D saying that it sounds like what he hears on the highway next to him when someone is about to crash. Yes, the pitch will be very high (similar to GT's tire sound) when you're doing 60mph and your tires aren't spinning (if you have no ABS). When you're going around a corner with a lot of load on the outside tires and your tires are squeeling, it will sound nothing like the sound a car's tires make in an "oh s*** I'm going to die" slam on your brakes before you rear end someone on the highway situation.

Actually, 25-50mph, on a boulevard inside city limits. And when I'm taking a looping turn aggressively at 25-50mph myself in my Supra (3600 lbs with Dunlop Supersports, 225/50-16s), they emit a rather high pitched squeal for such large tires, remarkably similar to what I hear in Gran Turismo 4.

When I was at an autocross event myself, the only thing that sounded different to me were the dynamics. Listen to Forza's tire sounds sometime. They all have a deep roar to them - when they finally begin to complain vocally. This deep sound, I've only heard on huge Buicks, Lincolns, SUVs and trucks. Since most of the vehicles in Gran Turismo (and Forza) are small, lighter vehicles with smaller tires, I think GT's sounds are much more closely matched to what we do and will be driving. I have a feeling if Polyphony used the very same samples, but more of them to match all the aspects of tire grip and slip instead of the general squeal, you'd find they were just great.

 

[Rocket Punch]

LOL, his driving makes this thread irrelevant. That was like trying to watch Saving Private Ryan but they replaced Tom Hanks with a clown.

 

[frestkd]

Hmm I love when ppl compare games when they don't have the actual games and hardware on the same HDTV so they can compare with their own eyes.

 

[Beerz]

Obviously.

That's why you have started a thread named "GT5 Prologue vs GTHD vs FM2".

GT5P isn't out yet and even then, it isn't a full game.
GTHD is a... nevermind.


*sigh*

 

[TheDabbinDave]

I'd like to see that video (GT5PvsPGR4vsFortsa) in high res. YouTube does a great job at degrading vidoes.

 

[shaka]

Wow pgr4 and forza 2 look like PS2 games next to GT5.

but then again those games are on xbox and we all know xbox graphics are pathetic.

 

[BlackZ28]

Not that it matters, put PGR actually has ~96000 polys per vehicle.
I will put my thoughts in... PGR looks GREAT! Forza didn't really impress me on any level. GT5P wins, easily. I was, however not at all impressed with the track on GT5P demo. The track, looks terrible....I know... I'm in the minority... but it had to be said. In its defense, the cars and its fps were stunning.

 

[Jedi2016]

I was, however not at all impressed with the track on GT5P demo. The track, looks terrible....I know... I'm in the minority... but it had to be said.

Well, it's the same track from GT4.. all they did was spruce up the textures a bit (and not that much). Aside from that, they didn't change a thing. I'm anxiously waiting to see what a built-from-scratch-for-GT5 track looks like.

 

[Tenacious D]

If you have a copy of Gran Turismo 3 and GT4 handy, you might pop them in and compare, since most of the same tracks are there. Not only do the cars look and handle differently, the tracks look primitive on GT3 A-Spec compared to GT4. Considering our Suzuka track in the Prologue demo is mostly a spruced up version of GT4's, it looks pretty nice. But obviously it has a ways to go for GT5 Prologue. Or... maybe not.

I expect that Prologue will be a showcase game for the PS3, so I'm expecting improvements to be made. But if not, personally I won't complain.

 

[DarthTurismo]

Considering our Suzuka track in the Prologue demo is mostly a spruced up version of GT4's, it looks pretty nice. But obviously it has a ways to go for GT5 Prologue. Or... maybe not.

I would have to disagree with most peoples complaints about the suzuka track on gt5p demo...... i have gt4 running on av1 component (1080i upscaled) and gt5p running on hdmi... all through a pana 50inch plasma..... i would have to say that it is not only a HD version of the gt4 track!!! there is far more detail on the track.....

for me the biggest problem the gt5p demo suzuka track has is the time of day that they have tried to depict.... it is nearing sundown by the look of it and as a consequence it is far too bloody dark (IMO) but if (fingers crossed) the gt5p game has midday sun then it should be excellent!! gotta a feeling they were trying to show of the shadowing effects in the demo

less than a week to go and we'll know for sure!

 

[Jay]

I would have to disagree with most peoples complaints about the suzuka track on gt5p demo...... i have gt4 running on av1 component (1080i upscaled) and gt5p running on hdmi... all through a pana 50inch plasma..... i would have to say that it is not only a HD version of the gt4 track!!! there is far more detail on the track.....

I agree, I have driven around slowly checking out the fine details of the track, and there is much more detail over the GT4 version, most of it is un-noticable when doing fast laps.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

I agree, I have driven around slowly checking out the fine details of the track, and there is much more detail over the GT4 version, most of it is un-noticable when doing fast laps.

+1

There's always going to be some people who will complain no matter what. Whether it be about the tracks, or car sounds, or physics, or what ever...

Personally, so far I am very impressed by what I have seen & heard as well as playing the early beta demo. 👍

 

[TheDabbinDave]

for me the biggest problem the gt5p demo suzuka track has is the time of day that they have tried to depict.... it is nearing sundown by the look of it and as a consequence it is far too bloody dark (IMO) but if (fingers crossed) the gt5p game has midday sun then it should be excellent!! gotta a feeling they were trying to show of the shadowing effects in the demo

Many people have spoken out about this darkness issue. To that I have to ask, have you guys played MotorStorm!!! Going from super gorgeous daylight into shadows is like having someone putting a hood over your head while driving. Evo went overboard with the shadow effects. This uber dark issue is related to HD TV users only. Those still using standard def don't have anywhere near the dark problems that plague HD displays. Sure, you can turn down black levels on the TV and adjust it within the PS3, but it washes to overall color pallet too.

I don't know, maybe having True Black, Ultra Black, or Blacker Than Black technology is more of a hindrance to the gaming world. I have a factory "Video Game" preset on my TV and it does not bring relief to extreme dark situations in games.

That suck.

 

[frestkd]

When GT4 came out it I was happy to see BMW 2002 Turbo ... FM2 has really made me squirt! On XBL there's a 12/07 DLC car pack with a BMW E30 M3!!!!

 

[Tenacious D]

I would have to disagree with most peoples complaints about the suzuka track on gt5p demo...... i have gt4 running on av1 component (1080i upscaled) and gt5p running on hdmi... all through a pana 50inch plasma..... i would have to say that it is not only a HD version of the gt4 track!!! there is far more detail on the track....

I guess I could have put it better than to say the Prologue Suzuka was "spruced up."

I agree, there is much more detail on the track, and I do think it's dandy. Having seen some footage, the real track does look more like it does in Forza 2 in spots, but it's nothing to complain about, and of course that was with the demo. And with the pics that D Nitrate and others have posted, I'm confident that Kaz and the lads are going to give us tracks that make us feel we're there.

As for the darkness issue, HDTVs are just something you'll have to play with. When I got my Bravia the day after Thanksgiving, it was on the Vivid preset which exaggerated everything, and EVERYTHING was overly contrasted. I finally opened the manual and waded through the extensive parameter list, and fudged something that looks really wonderful with TV or gaming either one. Prior to that, the shadows in the Prologue demo swallowed everything in inky black. But now, it's much more realistic.

Those of us with HDTVs are just going to have to crack open that manual and start fussing with the settings. Keep track of what you're doing carefully or it can get rather washed out, and watch carefully to see where you're taking things too far.

Oh, and there's another thing. On my Bravia, possibly because LCD TVs have a contrast ratio of 18,000 or less, the PS3 looks best when the Display Dynamic Range is set to Limited, which I believe is the default. I tried Full but the shadows just went back to ink pools.