GT5 Prologue Physics

[wnffe]

Hello everybody, still a newbie here but have been following gtp for years from time to time..I am hoping to start a good and constructive discussion on this topic..

I can't see any specific thread about physics for gt5 prologue yet, so I decided to start one. Since PD has been listening to our voice on tyres screeching sounds and multiplayer issues on the second update, I think it is important for them to hear and solve the physics issues too.

All credits to PD for creating the most gorgeous and great driving game. No doubt, I know the fact that PD is trying their best to simulate realistic experience but for me, the basic physics is still lacking when you're not racing and the car is on its limit. I know a lot of people here don't just play GT only for racing, occasionally some would do drifting or just plain sight seeing since the graphics is astonishingly superb you will end up dreaming watching the replays! Sometimes you want to drive and enjoy the car and not just racing.

To be honest I am very dissappointed the fact that I still could not do countersteer donuts in Prologue. Anybody using logitech DFP or G25 would understand what I mean. I remember it was worst in GT4, and thanks for all your voices, PD slightly improved it on GTHD where decent drift can be done a lot easier although countersteer donut still not possible.

Take 'Live for Speed' and 'Rfactor' for example, in these simulations, you can still race, drift and do whatever you want with the car. Their physics are almost as real life cars as far as I am concern. I'm sure anybody who play LFS would agree with me doing countersteer donuts as a basis of drifting and drifting itself are fairly a lot easier to do than in any other games although it is a simulator. They modelled it correctly and it is still a fun game to play. The downsides are they don't offer the same 'feel' of dreams as in GT where in those games cars are not real and graphics are not as cool. No offense to LFS fans!!

I am not a programmer but I don't think that it requires a lot of time for PD to amend the physics. It is just a slight revamp that can give a huge impact to the driving experience. In fact, think about it deeply, by improving it they will end up giving a game that is easier to drift and easier for novices to handle the car. Easy games + more people play = more sales. Wasn't that what Kazunori wants it to be in GT5 previously from one of his interview, which is good for beginners and good for hardcore players as well?

Also, If the physics is repaired, I'm sure the grip racers will be happy when the fatal snapback on those long sweeping fast corners is progressively reduced although not eliminated. And for drifters, long drifts will be eventually possible!

I attached some video links to demonstrate what I mean:





Your voices really count guys. Thanks

 

[gt3killer]

Man those snapbacks are fatal!! If turn up the traction control is does reduce some that, I wonder if it's trying to simulate what would really happen if you drove a real car without any driving aids?

 

[supralex]

wnffe you are right!

Physics engine of Live for speed is definitely the best engine that I saw !
You can do what ever you want with it

PD should be inspired by lfs

And I'm sorry but in real life if you take a real car like a Z4 you can easly make some simply donuts or even burnout ! in GT5 is impossible to have something decent

 

[RC45]

wnffe you are right!

Physics engine of Live for speed is definitely the best engine that I saw !
You can do what ever you want with it

PD should be inspired by lfs

And I'm sorry but in real life if you take a real car like a Z4 you can easly make some simply donuts or even burnout ! in GT5 is impossible to have something decent

And pray tell where in the current layout of the "game" would such manouvres help?

None of the tracks or tests or tasks or missions require the car to be "spun in a donut" - so how does that lack of "functionality" impact the current deployment of the product - if you have the need to do donuts, go play LFS.

Have you actually watched the GT TV movies yet? Surprise, surprise - Kaz is one of the folks who has had prior access to among other cars, the GT-R, don't yo uthink he and the PD developers know exactly what a "donut" is, or what a "car feels like on track"? I would imagine that they have a far better idea what a GT-R R35 feels like going around the Nurburgring as they have actually done it.

Has it ever occured to any of the complainers that the "features" you are demanding and claiming are so important really have no bearing on either the game play or track driving for that matter.

I honestly do not ever recall having either the need to or the requirement to do donuts while hot lapping on real life road race courses - so why should the developers even bother expending money and resources on those aspects when clearly their ar eother more pressing demands of their time - and that if and when the makers of the game feel the need to get around to "mdelling donuts and drifting" for that group of fans it will happen.

I honestly am amazed at the amount of energy and effort people expend on complaining about the details that int he end really have little impact on the over all game - and they also somehow think they authors have never thought about them.

*shrug*

I mean which would you rather have LFS physics, or Gran Tourismo ambience and features and enjoyment? because obviosul at the current time you ar enot getting both - but then again, this is the Prologue of the title that has already had 2 patches, so who knows - but I somehow doubt the volume of the whining is going to influence the development path and cycle.

The software development lifecycle is far more complex than just addressing the loudest complainers

 

[Wolfe]

And pray tell where in the current layout of the "game" would such manouvres help?

None of the tracks or tests or tasks or missions require the car to be "spun in a donut" - so how does that lack of "functionality" impact the current deployment of the product - if you have the need to do donuts, go play LFS.

...

I honestly do not ever recall having either the need to or the requirement to do donuts while hot lapping on real life road race courses - so why should the developers even bother expending money and resources on those aspects when clearly their ar eother more pressing demands of their time - and that if and when the makers of the game feel the need to get around to "mdelling donuts and drifting" for that group of fans it will happen.

Donuts and drifting aren't useful for racing, no. Donuts and drifting are byproducts of and evidence supporting a realistic physics engine. No matter what anyone thinks of them, donuts and drifting happen in real life. If a game can't replicate either of these real-world phenomena properly (given appropriate conditions), it isn't realistic. Period.

Besides, Gran Turismo is "The Real Driving Simulator," not "The Real Racing Simulator." Racing has never been and will likely never be the sole focus and sole purpose of the game.

You'd have a point if we were talking about a focused and limited racing sim like GTR -- its inability to simulate proper oversteer is a bit of a moot point considering the cars, tires, and goal of the game -- but we're not.

 

[Tenacious D]

Well, being able to do donuts is something that would indicate to the drifters that GT was drifter friendly, like Forza is. But really, the biggest drift communities are in the Forza and NFS camps, so I'd think they really should just go there.

Like I alluded to in the steering accuracy thread, I would like it if I could add a pinch of Live For Speed or rFactor to GT5. I do feel that the tire grip envelope is just too vague. Forza's is too strong, so you have grippy street tires, and most cars oversteer too much. GT understeers a bit too much. If that was refined even more, I think that would snap Gran Turismo 5 a lot closer to the sim level even the PC sim peeps would be happy with.

I would like to emphasize that Prologue is such a nice step or two forward that I'm not displeased. It feels much more matured as a physics simulator. But even then it could still stand some attention here and there. As long as the complainers are suggesting rather than grouching and harping, I think it's all good.

 

[Dave A]

Though GT5 is improved and unlike GT4 was imo, GT5 is enjoyable to drive so I'm not knocking GT5 here. What Wolfe said is essentially right, while you won't be doing donuts down the Grand Valley straight mid race, or at least you shouldn't be doing that, the fact that they arn't simulated well reflects flaws in the physics in areas which will, and which do affect the way you drive. Flaws in the grip levels, power delivery and grip transistions all come to mind, and thoes will effect every corner you take, drifitng or not. However I must stress that I have very few gripes with GT5 personally, no the physics arn't the best there is, they are an improvment over GT4's though and more importantly they have made the driving fun again imo. In the words of Tenacious D "I am not displeased".

 

[Wolfe]

From what I've heard of the game, Tenacious D, it sounds like I'd like GT5P at least as much as Forza 2, maybe more (my initial optimism for FM2 has waned, after I came to realize that the oversteer was worse than I had originally assessed). I don't think I'll be playing it anytime soon, though -- just today I finally had a chance to play GTHD Concept at the local EB, which would have been a huge letdown if I didn't already know that it would be little more than GT4 with sharper graphics.

I assume GT5P is a significant leap from GTHD.

 

[Tenacious D]

And also keep in mind that it's really rare to have a preview of a game as much as a full YEAR early. This is a singular event in video games, so what Gran Turismo 5 has in store for us is anyone's guess. Kaz-dono is holding some things close to his chest, and I have no doubt that there are going to be some wonderful surprises and presents for us when the real deal is unveiled next year. *crosses fingers for a 2008 release*

 

[Dave A]

There's a definite improvment between GT5 and GT:HD, most of the changes seem to be smaller but in the right places. A powerful car feels like a powerful car when you take the driving aids of. You can't floor a 599 out of a corner in pro mode put it that way. Well you can, but you won't get round the corner facing the right way.

 

[RC45]

A powerful car feels like a powerful car when you take the driving aids of. You can't floor a 599 out of a corner in pro mode put it that way. Well you can, but you won't get round the corner facing the right way.

Which is how it is inreal life with anything except the stickiest tyres. I daily drive a 660bhp light weight RWD car and for folks who think snap oversteer is a flawed physics glitch in driving games, they need to think again

Traction Control, Active Handling and a gentle right foot ar eyour firends - as you have eluded to these features are pretty accurately modeled in GT5: P

I also think something many of us forget, is that whether we like to believe it or not, those of us with G25's and racing cockpits/seast ar ein the minority and most players of the GT franchise (and even FM/FM2 etc ) play with a hand heldm controller and that developers have to compromise their models to allow for pickup-race gamers to want to buy their product - because it is those casual gamers that are the bread and butter for these guys, not us die-hards

There is a reason GT is a squillion dollar franchise that is Sony's favourite son and LFS is a 3 dollar download from TuCows.. User Base

 

[unv412]

execellent discussion guys 👍 RC45, its hard to ignor the whole aspect of doing donuts and drifting as its so grassroots as a form of car control.I mean to say most car freaks have done a little bit of angleing or circlework so as a means of assesing a games physics engine these things are what its measured against.Not many people have gone 150kph.....then braked hard whilst dropping 2 gears.....for tight 90degree left hander...just past the local McDonalds drive thruLet alone a track day! Getting burnout/drift physics rite is a big thing, get them rite and both hardcore sim lovers and casual gamers alike shall rejoice.

 

[Jay]

There's a definite improvment between GT5 and GT:HD, most of the changes seem to be smaller but in the right places. A powerful car feels like a powerful car when you take the driving aids of. You can't floor a 599 out of a corner in pro mode put it that way. Well you can, but you won't get round the corner facing the right way.

Indeed, and it doesnt even need to be a high powered rwd, a Suzuki Cappuccino with N or even S1 tyres can face the wrong way in the wrong hands coming out of tight corners. Oversteer physics have been very much improved over GT4.

I notice drift donuts are possible but only when doing larger loops, like if you were to drift around a round-a-bout. Though you can't seem to hold tight drift donuts as the car just spins too easily.

 

[Dave A]

That's true, I actually spun a Cappuccine at Eiger on N2's in my first attempt at the track. I really like driving that car though, it's very chuckable but as I found out it can be pushed too far, especially on a downhill hairpin . But some of the more powerfull rwd cars are imo genuinely hard to drive near the limit.

 

[wnffe]

Is it wrong to have a bit of fun and expression after a hard racing? As I explain before, it’s not just really a pure complaint, but as a gathered voices how to look things forward before it’s too late. Who knows our voice might be heard. Remember GT4 Prologue to GT where no physics improvement at all?

By the way, won’t you be disappointed if you by a ‘Vette’ but can’t do a proper donut if you have the skill to do so? I would…if it’s my car, I bought it with my own money than I have my own right to complaint. It’s the same in GT. .Sometimes I have fun with it, sometimes I race it. Shame I don’t have that money to buy nor to maintain it yet, so that’s why I play games. But if I do own such car, I definitely help and encourage the community to move further rather than putting down on other people’s opinion…

The thing is GT is a perfect dreaming world. That’s why we want everything in GT rather than in any other games. We are all dreaming in a certain way when playing games, everybody know its not real but is there any harm to make our dreams as real as possible? For me it’s not just about competition…you can play it whichever and however you like…

If GT is a Sony’s favourite son, then we need a lot of voice for them to take action. Let’s be united and constructive. It does not take us even a penny to request, so why bother restricts and discourage?

Even F1 drivers do it once in a while in a narrow track ..here’s the link:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=a4nryCchupc

Peace!!

 

[Jay]

Donuts like that are possible in GT5P (like most of that f1 video, flicking the car around), no problems.

It's tight countersteer drift donuts that just do loops that are very hard if not impossible in GT5P to do.

So you can still have fun flicking cars around in GT5P.

 

[wnffe]

Originally Posted by RC45
And pray tell where in the current layout of the "game" would such manouvres help?

vipergtsr01 - I agree completely with you, just making the point that it can be done even on a tight track..

 

[JM1681]

...I am very dissappointed the fact that I still could not do countersteer donuts in Prologue...

Ugh...this ruins my day...

Does anyone else think physics have taken a step backwards since GT3? I could do just about anything in that game, including a countersteer donut (Albeit somewhat wide, but at least it was possible).

 

[Jay]

Ugh...this ruins my day...

Does anyone else think physics have taken a step backwards since GT3? I could do just about anything in that game, including a countersteer donut (Albeit somewhat wide, but at least it was possible).

You can countersteer donuts but only large drift type circles, though can't hold tight donut circles very well.

I wouldn't worry to much until you try GT5, it still is a big improvement over GT4.

 

[JM1681]

Are the physics in Prologue, different from those in the Prologue demo?

 

[RC45]

Are the physics in Prologue, different from those in the Prologue demo?

Wouldn't the answer to this question be completely subjective? Send an email to Sony - I am sure they have an accurate answer

 

[wnffe]

I do feel a lot of difference from Prologue Demo to Prologue. The physics in Prologue definitely much better, less twitchy and better throttle control. I'm referring to rwd cars e.g bmw 135i and lexus IFS. Drifting is much progressive and controllable + we now have clutch!

 

[Kamus]

And pray tell where in the current layout of the "game" would such manouvres help?

None of the tracks or tests or tasks or missions require the car to be "spun in a donut" - so how does that lack of "functionality" impact the current deployment of the product - if you have the need to do donuts, go play LFS.

Have you actually watched the GT TV movies yet? Surprise, surprise - Kaz is one of the folks who has had prior access to among other cars, the GT-R, don't yo uthink he and the PD developers know exactly what a "donut" is, or what a "car feels like on track"? I would imagine that they have a far better idea what a GT-R R35 feels like going around the Nurburgring as they have actually done it.

Has it ever occured to any of the complainers that the "features" you are demanding and claiming are so important really have no bearing on either the game play or track driving for that matter.

I honestly do not ever recall having either the need to or the requirement to do donuts while hot lapping on real life road race courses - so why should the developers even bother expending money and resources on those aspects when clearly their ar eother more pressing demands of their time - and that if and when the makers of the game feel the need to get around to "mdelling donuts and drifting" for that group of fans it will happen.

I honestly am amazed at the amount of energy and effort people expend on complaining about the details that int he end really have little impact on the over all game - and they also somehow think they authors have never thought about them.

*shrug*

I mean which would you rather have LFS physics, or Gran Tourismo ambience and features and enjoyment? because obviosul at the current time you ar enot getting both - but then again, this is the Prologue of the title that has already had 2 patches, so who knows - but I somehow doubt the volume of the whining is going to influence the development path and cycle.

The software development lifecycle is far more complex than just addressing the loudest complainers

Wait, you mean people want a simulator to be realistic? HOW DARE THEY!?

 

[Tenacious D]

Does anyone else think physics have taken a step backwards since GT3?

Actually, I thought the physics in GT3 were a very mixed bag. Mid-engined cars like the Elise, Esprit and MR2 were much too stable, and drove like front engine cars. You could take corners and turns much too fast in any car.

I know GT2 and 3 ushered in some glory days of video game racing, and it's okay to recall, but to say Kaz and the lads are taking steps back from that are really not seeing the picture very clearly. GT3 feels very generic now, and Forza 2 seems primitive in comparison, even though it has a few things over Prologue still. Things are moving forward, and remember, GT5 is still about a year away. A lot can happen in a year.

 

[RC45]

Wait, you mean people want a simulator to be realistic? HOW DARE THEY!?

And what basis of comaprison are people using to judge that is doesn't "feel" real?

 

[McLaren]

And pray tell where in the current layout of the "game" would such manouvres help?

None of the tracks or tests or tasks or missions require the car to be "spun in a donut" - so how does that lack of "functionality" impact the current deployment of the product - if you have the need to do donuts, go play LFS.

Have you actually watched the GT TV movies yet? Surprise, surprise - Kaz is one of the folks who has had prior access to among other cars, the GT-R, don't yo uthink he and the PD developers know exactly what a "donut" is, or what a "car feels like on track"? I would imagine that they have a far better idea what a GT-R R35 feels like going around the Nurburgring as they have actually done it.

Has it ever occured to any of the complainers that the "features" you are demanding and claiming are so important really have no bearing on either the game play or track driving for that matter.

I honestly do not ever recall having either the need to or the requirement to do donuts while hot lapping on real life road race courses - so why should the developers even bother expending money and resources on those aspects when clearly their ar eother more pressing demands of their time - and that if and when the makers of the game feel the need to get around to "mdelling donuts and drifting" for that group of fans it will happen.

I honestly am amazed at the amount of energy and effort people expend on complaining about the details that int he end really have little impact on the over all game - and they also somehow think they authors have never thought about them.

*shrug*

I mean which would you rather have LFS physics, or Gran Tourismo ambience and features and enjoyment? because obviosul at the current time you ar enot getting both - but then again, this is the Prologue of the title that has already had 2 patches, so who knows - but I somehow doubt the volume of the whining is going to influence the development path and cycle.

The software development lifecycle is far more complex than just addressing the loudest complainers

While I applaud this post (virtual +rep. 👍 ), that doesn't really help the fact that Gran Turismo needs the physics to attempt a donut.
Now, I'm not saying donuts should be put in as a mode or anything, what I am saying is that the physics needed to start a donut are required.

Even in real racing, donuts are done. They're 99.9% done by accident and they're pretty much never a full donut. But when it is done is when a driver spins out. Instead of taking the time to just turn around like you have to in GT in the past, the driver will implement a little bit of power to suddenly whip the car around and take off. A 180 donut, if you will. GTR2 can even accomplish this, and I've had to do it a few times and it's not easy.

So, I'm not saying GT should put in the physics to do drifts and donuts just so I can do them (I could care less quite frankly), I'm suggesting they put them in should the case I explained above happen. It adds realism to the game in which GT5 needs to grab every bit it can.

 

[ChadSpeed]

What I used to do in GT3 was make drifting replays for my own pleasure and anyone unfortunate enough to have never seen GT. It was tons of fun and kept me entertained long after the "game" was over. I loved to watch a stock car such as the Cobra R smash its nose into the ground during hard braking, and equally appealing was the beautiful way PD captures the body motions of these cars so realistically. You could feel the intensity of every corner, and save it in a great pic or replay. I would be displeased a little bit if GT5 still has this problem, but of course it should not ruin the game for anyone.

 

[Lain]

Agreed that the physics could use improvement, but no, it'd most likely be a lot of work for Polyphony Digital. Still, it'd take less time than modeling all those gorgeous cars.

 

[Wolfe]

Which is how it is inreal life with anything except the stickiest tyres. I daily drive a 660bhp light weight RWD car and for folks who think snap oversteer is a flawed physics glitch in driving games, they need to think again

In terms of initial oversteer, I couldn't agree more. But GT4 and GTHD way, way overemphasized snapback overcorrection.

I also think something many of us forget, is that whether we like to believe it or not, those of us with G25's and racing cockpits/seast ar ein the minority and most players of the GT franchise (and even FM/FM2 etc ) play with a hand heldm controller and that developers have to compromise their models to allow for pickup-race gamers to want to buy their product - because it is those casual gamers that are the bread and butter for these guys, not us die-hards

Tailored for casual gamers, yes, but a regular controller shouldn't and doesn't have to limit the physics engine.

 

[RC45]

Even in real racing, donuts are done. They're 99.9% done by accident and they're pretty much never a full donut. But when it is done is when a driver spins out. Instead of taking the time to just turn around like you have to in GT in the past, the driver will implement a little bit of power to suddenly whip the car around and take off. A 180 donut, if you will. GTR2 can even accomplish this, and I've had to do it a few times and it's not easy.

So, I'm not saying GT should put in the physics to do drifts and donuts just so I can do them (I could care less quite frankly), I'm suggesting they put them in should the case I explained above happen. It adds realism to the game in which GT5 needs to grab every bit it can.

This is a very legitimate reason - and hopefully they have time to complete the coding, but I was refering to the "the ability to do doughnuts" being a "make or break" deal. This will be nice and cool and ultra realistic to impliment, but not if it means something else has to be set aside because of time or technology constraints.

I rate as an example, functional clutch higher on my 'must haves' list than opposite lock doughtnuts (one of which I did today to make a u-turn in town, as the turning circle of my car with 295 front tyres is worse than a Hummer )