GT7 AI, will it improve?

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lapalf
Another GT is always good news. However, the single player game needs to improve to make it more appealing. The AI has traditionally been quite horrible and so the single player part of the game pretty boring.

I think the AI can only improve (can't be worse really) the question is, would it give us a "realistic" racing experience or just another "catch the rabbit" kind of game?
 
I posted about this in another thread.
ThruxtonGT
I think it’s almost a given it will be the same. All previous titles have been chase the rabbit and I don’t see them changing it now after all these years.
What’s important here imo is that they at least keep the alternative custom race AI from GT Sport. Whilst still not the fastest it offers a much more racey offline experience.
It is entirely possible to set up a decent offline race in GT Sport using the custom race feature.
But I’m sure the chase the rabbit experience will be the same for the campaign mode in GT7
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People underestimate just how crap current gen CPU’s are. A lot of the time underwhelming physics, AI, collisions etc. isn’t down to devs not understanding what’s needed. But the fact they need to take shortcuts as they have so few CPU cycles for those tasks.

Next-gen they’ll be getting 4x-8x more CPU processing power!
 
Leovizzz
That's the one single question that will make me get this game or even a PS5. If there's no improvement or difficulty selection (also qualifying, but I doubt they will implement that), then I'm staying on the PS4.
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Exactly. If AI is still as bad as it is now, there's little incentive to jump into GT7. Online racing requires a bit more "prep" (set times, qualifying and so) and then many times it's a lottery if you are going to be kicked to the moon in the first corner... If you just feel like a quick race, single player is your option but if the AI sucks.....
 
I think that will be answered once we see gameplay against the bots, if we see again rolling single file grid spread out at the start with the player starting at the back, that would suggest not enough confidence in the bots one to one with the player, but giving the rabbit enough of a head start to hopefully finish before the player catches up.

It seemed in the past GT3, the standing starts the bots gave more of a challenge. I think with GT Sport originally AI was the last thing thing they where focusing on, being a multiplayer game, so they didn't spend enough time developing it, hopefully this time around.
 
Honestly, i don't get why PD take so long to put out games and content. Is there like 10 employees there or they are vacationing always.
They are so generic, simple, featureless, just clean polished look, plus grinding for years to try access any top car, jeez..
Unless they completely change around everything, it's not something I'll put money, time, energy on again.
 
The AI model for GT7 must be a complete replacement. GT is so far behind the competition it is embarrassing. I understand GT Sport used the old AI model because it wasn't originally intended to have a campaign, so PD had no intention of rewriting it. However, being 15 years behind rival games necessitates something new.
 
RedRockValley
I could've sworn PD once mentioned they were looking into AI machine learning? Maybe what we're seeing in the trailer is merely a placeholder, which would make sense as GT7 does seem to be using a lot of GT Sport stuff as placeholders in it's current state of development.
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Placeholders... placeholders everywhere :D it feels to me like placeholders are our justification for PD’s incompetence every time when a GT game is about to launch :D

then we’re let down ofc.
 
Lord Protector
Placeholders... placeholders everywhere :D it feels to me like placeholders are our justification for PD’s incompetence every time when a GT game is about to launch :D

then we’re let down ofc.
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Not really a justification, moreso an observation based off what I've previously seen, and it doesn't just apply to GT either! Games in development will often use placeholders from a previous project, it's not uncommon at all.

I do understand the pessimistic attitude to an extent though, GT has been stuck with this crap AI system for years. I'm just holding off from jumping to a conclusion right now because only one trailer has been released so far and we have no idea when the game will come out.
 
RedRockValley
Not really a justification, moreso an observation based off what I've previously seen, and it doesn't just apply to GT either! Games in development will often use placeholders from a previous project, it's not uncommon at all.

I do understand the pessimistic attitude to an extent though, GT has been stuck with this crap AI system for years. I'm just holding off from jumping to a conclusion right now because only one trailer has been released so far and we have no idea when the game will come out.
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I wasn’t objecting to placeholders not being a real thing :D I’m just saying people here tend to hope too much and frankly, I’m no exception.
 
RedRockValley
Not really a justification, moreso an observation based off what I've previously seen, and it doesn't just apply to GT either! Games in development will often use placeholders from a previous project, it's not uncommon at all.

I do understand the pessimistic attitude to an extent though, GT has been stuck with this crap AI system for years. I'm just holding off from jumping to a conclusion right now because only one trailer has been released so far and we have no idea when the game will come out.
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Observations off what you've previously seen would be enough to know that AI isn't something they'd 'placeholder' though.
 
Lord Protector
I wasn’t objecting to placeholders not being a real thing :D I’m just saying people here tend to hope too much and frankly, I’m no exception.
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Fair enough haha, I'm pretty level headed about what I'm seeing so far. There's parts of the game that look great so far and others that don't, but I have no idea what's gonna be kept or changed. I'll wait for more info and trailers...
 
matherto
Observations off what you've previously seen would be enough to know that AI isn't something they'd 'placeholder' though.
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To expand on that point, GT has used placeholders from previous games in demos and previews. GT 2000 for example used a ton of stuff from GT2, which was (mostly) replaced in GT3. That's what I'm trying to say here, there's definitely alot of GT Sport assets being used in the GT7 trailer but we have no idea if it's merely placeholders or there to stay. I just have a glimmer of hope that the AI will be changed because I recall PD mentioning they were looking into AI machine learning.
 
RedRockValley
To expand on that point, GT has used placeholders from previous games in demos and previews. GT 2000 for example used a ton of stuff from GT2, which was (mostly) replaced in GT3. That's what I'm trying to say here, there's definitely alot of GT Sport assets being used in the GT7 trailer but we have no idea if it's merely placeholders or there to stay. I just have a glimmer of hope that the AI will be changed because I recall PD mentioning they were looking into AI machine learning.
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I think the problem is that "it's only placeholder" was used pretty extensively during discussions in the run-up to GT5, 6 and Sport to stifle debate. You can't talk about anything if everything is subject to change, and it certainly becomes impossible to be critical of any aspects that you think might need work.

It's far more reasonable to assume that anything that appears in the officially released advertising or media is at least intended to represent what will be in the final game. If they change it, cool, but if it's being put in front of potential consumers I think it's totally fair to assume that this is what the game will actually be.

If they're showing trailers with janky AI, then I think that in combination with their 23 year history of unspectacular AI in their games is more than enough to come to a reasonable conclusion about the current state of the AI in the game. Polyphony may be making noises about machine learning, but Forza Motorsport has been doing that with Drivatars for like, a decade. Poorly as well, I might add, so machine learning clearly isn't some magic bullet that gives you magnificent AI.
 
Samus
Unless they've actually hired so new people to work on it, I can't see why it would. The current lot haven't made good AI in 22 years, it's unlikely they'll suddenly figure it out now.
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In GT1 the AI was aggressive at least. In GT2 it was less aggressive, but still it wasnt uncommon to see AI overtake you. In GT5/6 they would brake on the straight behind you.
 
In answer to the title. Of course not, PD spend so much time perfecting menus, music, car models and track models that things like AI take a backseat to the point of non existence. I know we've only seen early footage of the game but if there was ever a time to show something fans have been asking for since the first game 25 years ago, that was it.
 
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Imari
I think the problem is that "it's only placeholder" was used pretty extensively during discussions in the run-up to GT5, 6 and Sport to stifle debate. You can't talk about anything if everything is subject to change, and it certainly becomes impossible to be critical of any aspects that you think might need work.

It's far more reasonable to assume that anything that appears in the officially released advertising or media is at least intended to represent what will be in the final game. If they change it, cool, but if it's being put in front of potential consumers I think it's totally fair to assume that this is what the game will actually be.

If they're showing trailers with janky AI, then I think that in combination with their 23 year history of unspectacular AI in their games is more than enough to come to a reasonable conclusion about the current state of the AI in the game. Polyphony may be making noises about machine learning, but Forza Motorsport has been doing that with Drivatars for like, a decade. Poorly as well, I might add, so machine learning clearly isn't some magic bullet that gives you magnificent AI.
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Fair observations. I personally still believe it's too early for me to make any judgements but I'm not going to stop anyone from doing so. I don't want it to seem like I'm trying to stifle debate, I'm just showing what I think is going on with the game right now. If we get more trailers in the future that still seem to use that ancient AI system then I'd definitely be more inclined to think that we're getting the same old AI mechanics.

On Drivatars, they're definitely not that great but heaps better than the AI we get in GT (IMO)... Still though, you're right that machine learning isn't some sort of magic bullet.
 
RedRockValley
Fair observations. I personally still believe it's too early for me to make any judgements but I'm not going to stop anyone from doing so. I don't want it to seem like I'm trying to stifle debate, I'm just showing what I think is going on with the game right now. If we get more trailers in the future that still seem to use that ancient AI system then I'd definitely be more inclined to think that we're getting the same old AI mechanics.

On Drivatars, they're definitely not that great but heaps better than the AI we get in GT (IMO)... Still though, you're right that machine learning isn't some sort of magic bullet.
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I think for me I base it on what other racing games show off in early trailers and gameplay, and usually anything with racing connotations will show AI in the best light they can, look at PC3, Grid, even back to all the Forza Motorsport games, the Shift games etc.

I hope you're right and we see improvements, but I think we'd have seen it already in that trailer.
 
MagpieRacer
I think for me I base it on what other racing games show off in early trailers and gameplay, and usually anything with racing connotations will show AI in the best light they can, look at PC3, Grid, even back to all the Forza Motorsport games, the Shift games etc.

I hope you're right and we see improvements, but I think we'd have seen it already in that trailer.
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Considering they're focusing more on singleplayer, it would be a no-brainer to improve the AI but PD works in mysterious ways... For now, I'm just going to wait and see. Makes you wish they communicated more, if at all! :lol:
 
karelpipa
In GT1 the AI was aggressive at least. In GT2 it was less aggressive, but still it wasnt uncommon to see AI overtake you. In GT5/6 they would brake on the straight behind you.
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The AI in those early games were just cheating though, via rubber banding and even letting the AI use cars beyond the entry specs.

The later games also used rubber banding but in different ways, in conjunction with the catch the rabbit format.
 
Yes rubberbanding was in use, but i was talking about the overtaking alone. AI wasnt shy to overtake players' car at least.
In GT2 there were only few cars which were beyond specs, and many of them were just mistakenly there.

In GT1 there is not a single one AI car over the specs.
note:
Yes, if you are a good driver, you needed to fit worse tyres and carefully judge the horsepower.

The catch the rabbit format is EVILLEST thing in the universe. It needs to be erased.
 
I somehow doubt it will improve. Over the years it has become easy to assume that PD is utilizing nearly all hardware resources on visuals and physics. So the AI is probably getting left behind again if GT7 comes with higher frame rates, ray tracing, dynamic time and weather and slightly improved physics.

Maybe the AI code wouldn’t even need much improvement if PD scrapped the chase the rabbit format in favor of higher pace for all AI cars and a considerably less spread out field of cars. The last few titles have been quite stubborn about this setup.
 
If Kunos and one man (Stefano) can create AI which is significantly better than any GT title, I'd say it's not an issue of hardware limits - it must be a choice to neglect AI, or at best, to cater for Jo Blow and his controller after 8 pints whilst ignoring those of us who want to be challenged. GT wants us to treat it like a sim whilst it tries hard to cater for people that cannot handle realism.
 

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