GT7 Expectations - Same Old or New breath of life?

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Johnnypenso

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Free DLC always trumps Monetary
.
No it does not, unless of course your only criteria is cost. I would guess that most of the people that play any of these games have a few dollars left over to spend on DLC if it's the type of content they are looking for. If you care about the quantity and quality of DLC, especially in a game or a franchise that you wish to play for a long time, then it's a different equation.
 
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AXEofGOD
...Regardless of how much Sony forked out for GT6's development, in the past interviews Kaz indicated that the game used a scaled down version of something from GT7.

I read that as the cost was spread along both games, and to me it's a fair play to treat GT6 as GT7 Prologue.

I love speculating with little to no proof. It's so much fun!!

Fair play indeed.

No it does not, unless of course your only criteria is cost. I would guess that most of the people that play any of these games have a few dollars left over to spend on DLC if it's the type of content they are looking for. If you care about the quantity and quality of DLC, especially in a game or a franchise that you wish to play for a long time, then it's a different equation.

Fair enough. I'm old school, when a game comes out, I want it to be a finished and clean product.

Yes, DLC being free is the only criteria I have. I get others might be willing to spend the extra cash, I will not. And just because it's free doesn't mean you need to sacrifice quantity and/or quality. I think that PD has done a decent job with DLC. Keeping GT6 updated with free content(yes, content that WAS promised) whilst working on GT7, is not too shabby.
 
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12,065
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Neomone/GTP_Imari
If Sony has them set-up as an R&D and not a P&L then everybody's concern is for not. Meaning PD and Kaz will never go anywhere, ever.

It's more than shiny graphics. It's multi-screens, wheels, showing other devs what this hardware can do at it's maximum.

The thing is, if that's their job then they're not doing it very well.

GT5P was sort of a tech demo I suppose, and it was pretty flash, but it wasn't super spectacular. GT5 was way too late to be showing off anything except maybe 3D, and that seemed like it was packed in at the last minute. GT6 was far too late for anyone to care about what technologies it might be showcasing on PS3.

If GT7 wanted to be showing what the PS4 can do, it needed to be out by now. As it stands, Driveclub and TLoU Remastered are the tech showcases.

Maybe they're going to use it as the VR showcase, but if I was Sony I'd honestly be a bit hesitant with handing that one to Polyphony. VR needs really high, rock solid frame rates, an area in which Polyphony has been willing to compromise significantly for gains in other areas.

If Polyphony is the R&D testbed and tech showcase developer like you speculate, then their actions are either significantly at odds with that or they're just plain bad at it.

Keeping GT6 updated with free content(yes, content that WAS promised) whilst working on GT7, is not too shabby.

I'm sorry, they don't get props from me for releasing content that was part of the sale contract. Or in the case of stuff like the VGTs, missing it completely. The VGT list was supposed to be released over the first 12 months of the game's life. That didn't happen.

There have been some nice moments like the Senna stuff, and the Red Bull Ring, and a few unexpected free cars, but on the whole it's been a pretty big step back from what they'd actually announced. Monthly tracks and so forth, which they changed their tune on post release.

From an awful game, but this was great DLC. Ten bucks, and worth every penny. I'm totally happy to pay for a solid slug of quality content like that.

What makes me more happy about it is that if I'm paying, then there's incentive for devs to get on with it. When stuff is free, then I feel that it's far too easy for devs to put it on the back burner or ignore it altogether. And rightly so, there's little more for them to gain out of it. I'd far rather they work for a tangible reward when they produce content, than because of some foolish things that were said pre-release.
 
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AXEofGOD
The thing is, if that's their job then they're not doing it very well.

GT5P was sort of a tech demo I suppose, and it was pretty flash, but it wasn't super spectacular. GT5 was way too late to be showing off anything except maybe 3D, and that seemed like it was packed in at the last minute. GT6 was far too late for anyone to care about what technologies it might be showcasing on PS3.

If GT7 wanted to be showing what the PS4 can do, it needed to be out by now. As it stands, Driveclub and TLoU Remastered are the tech showcases.

Maybe they're going to use it as the VR showcase, but if I was Sony I'd honestly be a bit hesitant with handing that one to Polyphony. VR needs really high, rock solid frame rates, an area in which Polyphony has been willing to compromise significantly for gains in other areas.

If Polyphony is the R&D testbed and tech showcase developer like you speculate, then their actions are either significantly at odds with that or they're just plain bad at it.

I'm not a developer so I don't know. But if it were rnd it would be showcased to dev teams years before it hits shelves. And wasn't gt6 supposed to show off 3D if I'm not mistaken? I see the holes in my points. I just feel that people are coming to a far too bleak conclusion based on the fact that PD didn't hit their expectations with gt6. Or5.

I go back and forth like a giant pendulum, from man we may never see a gt8 and pd will fold. Then I swing back the other way to Kaz has a life sentence and we will see a gt10 for ps5 in 2029(and finally an all premium car library ;-)
 
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I just feel that people are coming to a far too bleak conclusion based on the fact that PD didn't hit their expectations with gt6. Or5.

Maybe so, but you can see why, right? It's an entire console generation, and a good 11 years since GT4 which is the last GT that most people will universally agree was excellent. That's a long, long time.

And it's unfortunately the majority of the time that GT has been around, GT1, 2, and 3 all came out in a flurry of a few years. So when people look at Polyphony's past work, they see that the stuff in the late '90s and early '00s was pretty good, but since then it's been either dry spells or questionable design. And that's a long time to be working on stuff that ended up being good, but not great.

I think it's hard to see how they would turn it around. If they managed to convince themselves that their decisions with GT5 and GT6 were good at the time, even if they're realising that perhaps it wasn't so brilliant now, these are perhaps people who are going to struggle in general to make design decisions that I might enjoy.

And I'm probably not the only one following that train of thought, that if the last couple of games seemed to be drifting away from what I loved about Gran Turismo, how much further off is the next one going to be? Is it going to be one of those things where the series changes all the bits that I liked, and keeps all the bits that were crap but we happened to put up with back in ye olde days because nobody knew better?
 
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AXEofGOD
And I'm probably not the only one following that train of thought, that if the last couple of games seemed to be drifting away from what I loved about Gran Turismo, how much further off is the next one going to be? Is it going to be one of those things where the series changes all the bits that I liked, and keeps all the bits that were crap but we happened to put up with back in ye olde days because nobody knew better?

We have come full circle from the OP.

For me I like licenses and endurance races. I can't gain credits hot lapping in arcade mode, thus no way to build up my garage. If the AI was better I might like racing but it is what it is. We shall see what 7 brings. And to all the people who are hoping for a Q1 or Q2 2016 release, don't hold your breath. Nostradamus says Dec. 13, 2016 sounds like a possibility.
 
1,238
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alex1369
I dont have high hopes for GT7, im sure all cars since GT4( the standards) will be carried over.
Even if they all are premium still not good. Cuz it will still be those 200 skylines,100 miatas etc...
They will also promise every month dlc, but you can forget about that.
And theyll offer 100 new cars, 5 - 10 new tracks and thats it.. nothing to offer
 
There are lots of things they should keep the way it is and obviously change and bring something new to the table.

PS VR support looks very likely as it is expected to release in the same year. New generation bring more sleek presentation, gfx. Forza is a great example of series getting stale and people thought GT6 not selling 5+ million was the reason. But it is still the number1 selling racing game for its time. Forza6 kinda flopped with less than 200K retail sales and it is the closet thing to GT series. There are more than 100K people still playing GT6. The latest Suzuka time trail ranking proves that. GT6 is still probably the most played games. I am sure on PS4 they will step up and do something we have not seen in other racing games
 

Johnnypenso

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There are lots of things they should keep the way it is and obviously change and bring something new to the table.

PS VR support looks very likely as it is expected to release in the same year. New generation bring more sleek presentation, gfx. Forza is a great example of series getting stale and people thought GT6 not selling 5+ million was the reason. But it is still the number1 selling racing game for its time. Forza6 kinda flopped with less than 200K retail sales and it is the closet thing to GT series. There are more than 100K people still playing GT6. The latest Suzuka time trail ranking proves that. GT6 is still probably the most played games. I am sure on PS4 they will step up and do something we have not seen in other racing games
Do you have a reliable source for those Forza sales and those 100k people still playing GT6?
 
I did a test in GT6 few days back. Cruising in Suzuka and falling well short of bronze time. You can then see the rank there as long as rankings are open. Forza6 did195k with the bundles in the US. Neogaf has it on their site. Did not make top10 NPD charts. In the UK too it was number6. Behind a game called Until dawn, which is pretty shocking.
 
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lImaRobotl
I did a test in GT6 few days back. Cruising in Suzuka and falling well short of bronze time. You can then see the rank there as long as rankings are open. Forza6 did195k with the bundles in the US. Neogaf has it on their site. Did not make top10 NPD charts. In the UK too it was number6. Behind a game called Until dawn, which is pretty shocking.
Considering the list is full of multi-console games only, I'm wondering what the actual sales info is. I would imagine a game that is isolated to one console would struggle to sell more then a game that is spread out between atleast 3-4.

A thing I've heard is that digital sales aren't taken into account. How true that is, I'm not sure, though.
 

Johnnypenso

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I did a test in GT6 few days back. Cruising in Suzuka and falling well short of bronze time. You can then see the rank there as long as rankings are open. Forza6 did195k with the bundles in the US. Neogaf has it on their site. Did not make top10 NPD charts. In the UK too it was number6. Behind a game called Until dawn, which is pretty shocking.
So throw up the links to the appropriate data so we can all see it.
 
463
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Gran Turismo hasn't done that since PS2. They were real late to market on PS3, and they look to be again on PS4.

Wait.. What? PD have not made Sony money since PS2? Forgive me if I might have read that wrong, I hope I read that wrong because if you think that, you are crazy. GT: PSP 4.2m units GT: P 5.3m units GT5 10.6m units GT6 >3m units... Plus unknown digital sales of GT6 and DLC, etc of GT5.

This isn't even mentioning the cross project and promotions with the car industry (and if anyone believes PD are allowed to do these things out of the kindness of their hearts then I have some magic beans here you might be interested in purchasing)

A studio like Polyphony is not cheap to keep running. I don't think that they can just burn money and expect to continue being funded. There are other studios that Sony can use to show off how pretty the PS4 is, if they have to. Driveclub looks nice. Shiny graphics cannot be Polyphony's sole function. Polyphony needs to be able to make money too.

Shuhei Yoshida recently stated in an interview on Youtube (maybe Kinda Funny or giant bomb, I can't remember) that "6 out of 10 first party studios or projects are not profitable" That's not what first party studios are focussed on doing for Sony. They exist to shift hardware and get more people on your platform and in your ecosystem, for obvious reasons. Now PD is definitely not one of those 6 at this moment in time, but even if they do become one in the future, that has little bearing on their output or existence.

It is all down to what Sony considers a success for the platform. Say for example it sells as poorly as the last iteration but shifts a considerable amount of VR units. That is still a success for Sony in the broader scheme of things.

Behind a game called Until dawn, which is pretty shocking.

I don't find that shocking tbh. I think UT is a good game that appeals to a wider range of gamers.

I would imagine a game that is isolated to one console would struggle to sell more then a game that is spread out between atleast 3-4.

A good but time consuming way to work out how FM6 falls within it's own platform would be to go here..

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1126836

And look through the posts until you see percentage splits ( like 60/40 PS4 ) take the 40% of the said games figures when you find those and that is your answer. It's not easy though.


So throw up the links to the appropriate data so we can all see it.

Numbers for FM6 (bundles included)

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=182288402&postcount=821

The source is genuine, as good as reading the NPD release yourself. If her numbers were not verified and backed up, she would be banned a loooong time ago. It's not like over here where you can start threads based on shoddy numbers from a dodgy VIRAG lawsuit, who got their numbers from the highly unreliable VGCHARTZ :lol:
 

Johnnypenso

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Wait.. What? PD have not made Sony money since PS2? Forgive me if I might have read that wrong, I hope I read that wrong because if you think that, you are crazy. GT: PSP 4.2m units GT: P 5.3m units GT5 10.6m units GT6 >3m units... Plus unknown digital sales of GT6 and DLC, etc of GT5.
That's not what he said. He said GT wasn't a system seller on PS3 because they were late to the market with GT5, towards the end of the PS3 life cycle. PS3 sales leveled off at 13-14M units annually in 2009-2011 and then began a precipitous decline in 2012.

This isn't even mentioning the cross project and promotions with the car industry (and if anyone believes PD are allowed to do these things out of the kindness of their hearts then I have some magic beans here you might be interested in purchasing)
People bring this up quite often lately but no one ever explains what it means. What are you trying to say here and what evidence do you have to back it up except for wanting it to be true?

Shuhei Yoshida recently stated in an interview on Youtube (maybe Kinda Funny or giant bomb, I can't remember) that "6 out of 10 first party studios or projects are not profitable" That's not what first party studios are focussed on doing for Sony. They exist to shift hardware and get more people on your platform and in your ecosystem, for obvious reasons. Now PD is definitely not one of those 6 at this moment in time, but even if they do become one in the future, that has little bearing on their output or existence.
Assuming the 6-10 figure is accurate and not marketing talk, how do you know that GT6 didn't put PD into this category?

It is all down to what Sony considers a success for the platform. Say for example it sells as poorly as the last iteration but shifts a considerable amount of VR units. That is still a success for Sony in the broader scheme of things.
Absolutely. But it might also mean a much smaller budget for PD in the future if they have two mediocre games/sales in a row.

A good but time consuming way to work out how FM6 falls within it's own platform would be to go here..

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1126836 The source is genuine, as good as reading the NPD release yourself. If her numbers were not verified and backed up, she would be banned a loooong time ago. It's not like over here where you can start threads based on shoddy numbers from a dodgy VIRAG lawsuit, who got their numbers from the highly unreliable VGCHARTZ
:lol::lol:No, a random post by someone not banned on NEOGAF is not evidence of anything, sorry.

Now this isn't hard evidence either, but the number can easily be verified by someone who has the game. @HBR-Roadhog posted a full month ago that more than 539,000 people had posted a time on one of the F6 leaderboards. But until T10/MS releases official sales figures, it's all guess work and conjecture at this point.
 
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That's not what he said. He said GT wasn't a system seller on PS3 because they were late to the market with GT5, towards the end of the PS3 life cycle. PS3 sales leveled off at 13-14M units annually in 2009-2011 and then began a precipitous decline in 2012.

Well you would have to find out how many bundles were sold for GT: P and GT:5 to find that out on a face value level. I'm guessing most if not all of them. then for pre-emptive sales off the promise of GT5 you would have to look for anecdotal evidence around the internet. There is A LOT of that.... "I bought a PS3 for Gran Turismo... Where is it Sony???" etc,etc.

GT sold systems as far back as 2007, no question. Not even up for debate mate. GT is Sony's first party bread and butter without a doubt.

People bring this up quite often lately but no one ever explains what it means. What are you trying to say here and what evidence do you have to back it up except for wanting it to be true?

If I had facts I would post them. I don't think for one second you do the likes of.. Say, design Ui's for Nissan, Allow Toyota the release a video with your assets without even a mention to your own product, promo video's for half the industry for nothing in return. In an industry where advertisement and outsource design costs run in the billions. I am just not that naive, maybe you are but I am not. Anyway, when do you want these beans?

Assuming the 6-10 figure is accurate and not marketing talk, how do you know that GT6 didn't put PD into this category?

(If you ignore the .5m profit for 13/14 posted here) It might have, purely in isolation, but knowing they were releasing on an old platform I am sure they would have foreseen this as collateral. Again, no bearing on the overall picture as we know PD would already be gearing up for a PS4 product at that time. If it is in there, which I doubt Shu would include in his thoughts, it won't be for long. You can quote me on that 3 months prior to the next GT release if you feel my predictions turn out wrong. But I have a good feeling I will be quoting your posts from this time frame a lot more than you of me.👍

Also, you are completely ignoring the reason they exist in the first place as i stated.

Absolutely. But it might also mean a much smaller budget for PD in the future if they have two mediocre games/sales in a row.

And it might not. All hypothetical based on your assumptions of a product you or I know exactly ZERO about. Time will tell. All I see is more quotes for the future.

No, a random post by someone not banned on NEOGAF is not evidence of anything, sorry.

HAHAHAHA!! What the... :lol::lol::lol: OMG!! Seriously? A man who posts numbers of GT6 sales he got from an Italian flooring company has the balls to question the validity of an industry insider who has been vetted, backed up and verified by other people in the industry on her numbers? What the heck did I just read! hahahahahaha!!!

Oh Penso.... You are hilarious!!

Here's the deal so listen up and listen up good. A while ago NPD used to release all numbers to the public but had to stop as some publishers and/or manufacturers got all pissy about it, so they only release them privately within certain sectors and give the public a brief overview. Creamsugar works in one of these companies and is allowed those numbers. Other people on GAF are also privy to these and have verified this. If you think she is pulling these out of her ass or that the whole of GAF is conspiring to give out false numbers you need to get yourself a tinfoil hat my friend. :lol:

EDIT: For your added paragraph.

Now this isn't hard evidence either

You're right! Multiple accounts and all, people who have it and have yet to post a time. It's far from ideal. I honestly don't know why you would post it to counter a verified source. In fact, I don't know why you are desperately trying to discredit my source? Is it in disbelief of the low figures? If it is I am right there with you! A game as good as FM6 deserves to be well on it's way for a second or third month 7 figure sum at retail in my eyes. But facts are facts, it is not, whether we like it or not.

but the number can easily be verified by someone who has the game.

You're right! Get yourself over there and ask him to back it up! Oh no.. It's not a post on GT showing it in any kind of positive light, never mind....

@HBR-Roadhog posted a full month ago that more than 539,000 people had posted a time on one of the F6 leaderboards. But until T10/MS releases official sales figures, it's all guess work and conjecture at this point.

So let me get this straight, I am not entirely sure what you are getting at here... Are you posting worldwide leaderboard figures to counter my verified source for US retail numbers? There is no link in your post to check if US or worldwide but I hope it's the former just so this does not get any more embarrassing.
 
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jblackrevo9
You are missing a link to T10 staffing levels and your wiki has a link to a corporate profile more than 3 years old. You also gave no evidence or reasoning as to whether staffing levels at PD are increasing, staying the same. Again, I'm not saying that the staffing is moving in any direction I'm just saying that there's no evidence that all these new hires are all additional staff.

There is no need to post turn 10 employee link as this was not stated. I provided information to back up what assumptions you provided.

Johnnypenso said
How do we know they didn't just lose some staff to rival organizations or just going off to some other company and aren't just replacing people that left for the most part? We really don't know what their staffing levels are and it's presumptuous to assume that all or even the majority of the new hires represent an increase in staff, or that all of them are involved in some way in game production. Hiring someone in marketing won't affect how the game is made for example. They might all be new, they might all be replacements, but likely the truth is somewhere in between.


Yes anything can happen quickly and the process of updating information isn't fast enough but your jumping to theories to quickly. What information is provided as of now is what I'm going by from what I researched.

If you want evidence of polyphony increasing staff, here:

http://masterherald.com/gran-turism...-on-game-development-with-hiring-binge/28780/

This is true as this was also stated on GTPlanet a while ago.

That wiki link also has a link to the official site you can access to.
 

Johnnypenso

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Johnnypenso
Well you would have to find out how many bundles were sold for GT: P and GT:5 to find that out on a face value level. I'm guessing most if not all of them. then for pre-emptive sales off the promise of GT5 you would have to look for anecdotal evidence around the internet. There is A LOT of that.... "I bought a PS3 for Gran Turismo... Where is it Sony???" etc,etc.

GT sold systems as far back as 2007, no question. Not even up for debate mate. GT is Sony's first party bread and butter without a doubt.
Of course there is doubt. We have no evidence either way so to say without a doubt is foolish. If you take the numbers from VGChartz on hardware sales as accurate, as I already said, console sales were pretty much flat for 2009-2011. If you don't take them as accurate, then we literallly have zero information concerning hardware sales throughout the life of the console.

If I had facts I would post them. I don't think for one second you do the likes of.. Say, design Ui's for Nissan, Allow Toyota the release a video with your assets without even a mention to your own product, promo video's for half the industry for nothing in return. In an industry where advertisement and outsource design costs run in the billions. I am just not that naive, maybe you are but I am not. Anyway, when do you want these beans?
I don't know what their financial arrangement is and apparently neither do you. Thanks for confirming.

(If you ignore the .5m profit for 13/14 posted here) It might have, purely in isolation, but knowing they were releasing on an old platform I am sure they would have foreseen this as collateral. Again, no bearing on the overall picture as we know PD would already be gearing up for a PS4 product at that time. If it is in there, which I doubt Shu would include in his thoughts, it won't be for long. You can quote me on that 3 months prior to the next GT release if you feel my predictions turn out wrong. But I have a good feeling I will be quoting your posts from this time frame a lot more than you of me.👍
So you don't know either if GT6 put PD into that 4/10 column either. Good to know.

HAHAHAHA!! What the... :lol::lol::lol: OMG!! Seriously? A man who posts numbers of GT6 sales he got from an Italian flooring company has the balls to question the validity of an industry insider who has been vetted, backed up and verified by other people in the industry on her numbers? What the heck did I just read! hahahahahaha!!!
Yes. Posted the sales figures that were in a GTP News item and then when the figures turned out to be bogus, informed mods of the error and left it up to them whether they would like to close the thread or not. They chose to leave it open. It's called quoting a source and then revising your thread OP when the information proves to be untrue. It's called being forthright and doing the honest thing when the information you are using turns out to be bogus. Any other questions?

Here's the deal so listen up and listen up good. A while ago NPD used to release all numbers to the public but had to stop as some publishers and/or manufacturers got all pissy about it, so they only release them privately within certain sectors and give the public a brief overview. Creamsugar works in one of these companies and is allowed those numbers. Other people on GAF are also privy to these and have verified this. If you think she is pulling these out of her ass or that the whole of GAF is conspiring to give out false numbers you need to get yourself a tinfoil hat my friend. :lol:
Sorry, anonymous quotes from people on NEOGAF, no matter who they pretend to be, are not valid in any discussion. Just so you know, it's against the AUP to post false and misleading information.

You're right! Multiple accounts and all, people who have it and have yet to post a time. It's far from ideal. I honestly don't know why you would post it to counter a verified source. In fact, I don't know why you are desperately trying to discredit my source? Is it in disbelief of the low figures? If it is I am right there with you! A game as good as FM6 deserves to be well on it's way for a second or third month 7 figure sum at retail in my eyes. But facts are facts, it is not, whether we like it or not.
You have no verified source and I am not posting it as a counter to anything. I offered up a slice of information and framed it as not, "hard evidence". So again, you have nothing but you call it facts. Again, posting false information is against the AUP.

So let me get this straight, I am not entirely sure what you are getting at here... Are you posting worldwide leaderboard figures to counter my verified source for US retail numbers? There is no link in your post to check if US or worldwide but I hope it's the former just so this does not get any more embarrassing.[/QUOTE]Already framed it as not hard evidence and you have no verified source for worldwide leaderboards other than an anonymous quote on NEOGAF. AUP...yada yada yada.
There is no need to post turn 10 employee link as this was not stated. I provided information to back up what assumptions you provided.

jblackrevo9 said

Link: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyphony_Digital
Turn 10 has way more employees then polyphony digital.
You said T10 had way more employees than PD. How can you know this if you don't post a link to T10's staffing levels?

Yes anything can happen quickly and the process of updating information isn't fast enough but your jumping to theories to quickly. What information is provided as of now is what I'm going by from what I researched.
Questioning someone else's conclusions made out of thin air and giving alternate possibilities for the same information isn't jumping to theories, it's simply saying they are many possibilities and none of us know for certain which is the right one. Unlike you I'm not drawing any conclusions.

If you want evidence of polyphony increasing staff, here:

http://masterherald.com/gran-turism...-on-game-development-with-hiring-binge/28780/

This is true as this was also stated on GTPlanet a while ago.

That wiki link also has a link to the official site you can access to.
It's not evidence of increasing staff, it's evidence of hiring. They may end up at the same staffing levels, lower or higher, there's no way to tell from that article, which is simply a retread of information found on GTP. My guess would be that they are in the midst of an overall staff increase, but again, unlike you, I won't state it as a fact because it's not a fact. It's a guess.
 
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:lol: Oh Penso, every counter here is as weak as your source mate. It's so funny to read! I can't be bothered multi-quoting as it is past my bedtime. Even if it wasn't I probably wouldn't any way as it is a waste of my time. You're obviously trying to save face. Nobody could be this naive, surely?

The fact you would rather believe VGChartz numbers says it all really. When Microsoft, Nintendo and Sony have all released numbers for last gen consoles in the past that have been waaaaay different to what VGChartz has. (and in a lot of cases they never even rectified their numbers) I'm not talking a few thousand here or there, not even hundreds of thousands. I'm talking millions of units adrift at some points in time. :lol:

But I'm sure it's just that the manufacturers can't be trusted right? :sly: tinfoilhat

I also like the way you're trying to hide behind the AUP when in fact the only one here violating it is you by not editing the first post in your abysmal thread to align with the facts you now know. In fact, just quoting VGChartz as fact should be breaching the AUP. It's time and time again been proven inaccurate, that's from the horses mouth! What pulls you in to believing it's numbers? Is it the shiny web design? The sleek graphs? What is it? I need to know :lol:

Lastly, I honestly don't see how you can come to conclusion that the source I provided is not legitimate. You obviously don't know what GAF is about and how it operates. I could literally pick a dozen of examples of what I have personally seen why you can trust the source but it would be wasted on you. Because you are in denial. You obviously don't know how many people in the industry frequent GAF on a regular basis. Many of them have had their games numbers leaked by creamsugar, NONE of them have questioned or had grounds to question them. If they had any reason to question the numbers they would have to take it up with the NPD because, digit for digit, it's exactly the same.

Tell you what... 3 options....

Option one

Register on GAF (if you are not already banned mind) and ask why can this source be trusted and tell them why you think she can not. I am sure you'll have a nice time converting them to your line of reasoning. :lol:

Option two

There is a lovely chap by the name of HeliosT10 over at GAF, he works for T10 as you may have guessed. Go PM him, tell him that these numbers are out there (but I am sure he already knows) He, and/or his bosses will be privy to what number is wrote in the NPD report if that number does not match, she will be banned. Then come back here and tell the mods I am running around spouting facts from inaccurate sources, then I will be banned too. But that number will match the NPD report, they always do.... UNLESS.... It's a conspiracy! :lol:

Option three

Sit here, ignore my points and carry on believing in VGChartz. :lol:

It's up to you. Thanks for the laughs mate, goodnight.
 
So throw up the links to the appropriate data so we can all see it.

I am not a member of neogaf. But people get banned there for posting wrong info. Forza number proves that people are not abandoning GT. Forza and other racing games are selling much worse.

Considering the list is full of multi-console games only, I'm wondering what the actual sales info is. I would imagine a game that is isolated to one console would struggle to sell more then a game that is spread out between atleast 3-4.

A thing I've heard is that digital sales aren't taken into account. How true that is, I'm not sure, though.


Digital sales are probably not possible to track and are not taken into account. But it would be same for all games.
 
39,079
GT5 was way too late to be showing off anything except maybe 3D, and that seemed like it was packed in at the last minute.

I'd say the "last minute" feel that some of the things in GT5 had like 3D and the head tracking lends a bit of credence to the idea that it was supposed to be a showcase for whatever Sony happened to be pushing at the time. GT5 came out right at the moment that Sony was desperately trying to get people to care about the PS Eye again; and ditto around the time that all of Sony's first generation 3DTVs started hitting.
 

Johnnypenso

Well known double poster
Premium
28,466
Canada
Windsor, Ontario, Canada
Johnnypenso
The fact you would rather believe VGChartz numbers says it all really. When Microsoft, Nintendo and Sony have all released numbers for last gen consoles in the past that have been waaaaay different to what VGChartz has. (and in a lot of cases they never even rectified their numbers) I'm not talking a few thousand here or there, not even hundreds of thousands. I'm talking millions of units adrift at some points in time. :lol:
Every time I use VGChartz data I preface it with a caveat because it's unreliable. Your point is moot.

Lastly, I honestly don't see how you can come to conclusion that the source I provided is not legitimate. You obviously don't know what GAF is about and how it operates. I could literally pick a dozen of examples of what I have personally seen why you can trust the source but it would be wasted on you. Because you are in denial. You obviously don't know how many people in the industry frequent GAF on a regular basis. Many of them have had their games numbers leaked by creamsugar, NONE of them have questioned or had grounds to question them. If they had any reason to question the numbers they would have to take it up with the NPD because, digit for digit, it's exactly the same.
An anonymous source on the internet is not a source. End of.
 
463
England
England
Every time I use VGChartz data I preface it with a caveat because it's unreliable. Your point is moot.

Except you don't though, that I pointed out earlier. Go back and read again. Maybe you should edit in a caveat for your last post to point out that when you say every time, you really mean most of the time. ;)

That's waaay beside the point I made anyway, I said...

The fact you would rather believe VGChartz numbers says it all really. When Microsoft, Nintendo and Sony have all released numbers for last gen consoles in the past that have been waaaaay different to what VGChartz has. (and in a lot of cases they never even rectified their numbers) I'm not talking a few thousand here or there, not even hundreds of thousands. I'm talking millions of units adrift at some points in time. :lol:


An anonymous source on the internet is not a source. End of.

Ahh.. The face to face conversation equivalent to this is sticking your fingers in your ears and going "La La La La" :lol:

Haha... End of.. That's like saying "because I say so" or "It just is, okay!" :lol:

So you have absolutely nothing to dispute any of my points with?... I hear you loud and clear....

But just to be totally sure, I'll start your counter argument for you

Creamsugar and her NPD leaks over at GAF should not be trusted because.....

Go! 👍
 
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152
AXEofGOD
GT sold systems as far back as 2007, no question. Not even up for debate mate. GT is Sony's first party bread and butter without a doubt....

If I had facts I would post them. I don't think for one second you do the likes of.. Say, design Ui's for Nissan, Allow Toyota the release a video with your assets without even a mention to your own product, promo video's for half the industry for nothing in return. In an industry where advertisement and outsource design costs run in the billions. I am just not that naive, maybe you are but I am not. Anyway, when do you want these beans?


As Playstations number one console specific game, how large of loss is acceptable(for gt6)? Gt7 loss is unacceptable. And like many believe the costs for gt6&7 must be lumped together in many places.

The thing I am more interested in speculating is: how much Revenue does PD get from in-game sponsorships? And really how much do they get total from outside of strictly game sales? Nissan has stated (if you need proof, find me and tornado going round and round and it's there; no spoon-feeding here) that they spend millions on non-traditional advertisements. This includes video games. They pretty much fund the academy. And like you said PD isn't going to put sponsors on their fantasy tracks, i.e. BP on autumn ring, for free. I personally would like to believe that they get 50+% of their budget from in-game sponsorships.

As far as vgchartz or any other number on the net, it's a ballpark number, which is the best you can get unless you are given stockholder information released by Sony or Msft. Once GT7 is released, PD will update their sales page and we can see what GT6 did to that point and then we will all know who is the powerhouse. 3million sales on a previous gen console:cheers:
:gtpflag:
 
463
England
England
As Playstations number one console specific game, how large of loss is acceptable(for gt6)?

I don't know, we'd probably, first and foremost, have prove that there was a loss to be able to speculate, would we not? I don't work at the sharp end at Sony to have an idea of what there realistic goals were for it.

But personally I don't think they were that high though, going off of the lack of any substantial advertising campaign and all personnel at Sony already focussed on the already released PS4, and getting off to the best start they possibly could, which is wayyy more important than wasting any time or money on promoting last gen software. I can't seeing it being high on there priority list, do you?

I think the inclusion of 24 minutes races as opposed to 24 hours could be considered a sign that even Sony themselves didn't want people spending too much time on a last gen console game. It also lacked any sort of depth whatsoever compared to the rest. This may be an exaggeration but I think I could have finished GT6 faster than GT PSP. So, judging by the product it could also be argued PD were already focussing on next gen too (there may well be evidence of this out there in the form of quotes of when development started for GT7, but I am not sure).

Gt7 loss is unacceptable.

Well I guess that's one for the future. I also guess we are talking about loss of income via the sales of the game meaning PD operate at a loss? First party studios can and do operate on a loss 6 times out of 10 according to Shuhei Yoshida. It is certainly not uncommon and Sony obviously don't find it unacceptable or they would not continue funding projects.

If say, for example, Halo 5 releases tomorrow, does not sell enough to cover it's own budget, but shifts a lot of consoles in the process. Would that be unacceptable? The answer is most definitely no. It would be a success for MS for the obvious reasons. If it sold half as well as the last one it would still be considered MS' bread and butter. As with GT and Sony.

And like many believe the costs for gt6&7 must be lumped together in many places.

I don't see what your getting at here. You may have to elaborate. To take a guess at what you are saying is that, basically, GT6 to GT7 is what GT:5P was to GT:5?

(if you need proof, find me and tornado going round and round and it's there; no spoon-feeding here)

No, as exiting as that sounds, I am good thanks! :lol:

But yeah, It's mostly all unknowns outside or even inside of the game for that matter, how much changes hands, and where it happens. But you would have to be naive to think that PD would do these (or even be allowed to) for free.

As far as vgchartz or any other number on the net, it's a ballpark number, which is the best you can get unless you are given stockholder information released by Sony or Msft. Once GT7 is released, PD will update their sales page and we can see what GT6 did to that point and then we will all know who is the powerhouse. 3million sales on a previous gen console:cheers:
:gtpflag:

Here's the thing, amongst other places, NPD numbers are released to stockholders and investment bankers and are numbers advisor's and potential investors use to determine what companies, if any, to invest in. So if they are good enough for these sectors and all the other sectors who don't dispute them, then they are good enough for me.

VGChartz on the other hand... Yeah... It tells you something when it's very own community tells you you can't trust the numbers. I could go on and on but it's already been proven they fudge numbers, many times.

So you have a professional company that specialises in market research and is widely accepted by all parties as accurate enough data vs an infamous website notorious for being wrong, time and time again.

Anyway that's beside the point in all honesty in respects to my debate. Our argument was about the leak of the numbers not the numbers themselves from NPD. Even though I just pointed out that these are accepted.

These NPD numbers are unfortunately no longer given to the public. So we rely on leaks. We have gotten the leaks in the past via investment bankers amongst others. These leaks are backed up and verified and have been for the last few years, ever since NPD stopped releasing numbers to the public.

It would have to be the greatest ruse in the history of the internet for creamsugar to get away with releasing false numbers for all this time without being called out for it by now. Either that or a very deep conspiracy. :lol:
 

Johnnypenso

Well known double poster
Premium
28,466
Canada
Windsor, Ontario, Canada
Johnnypenso
I don't know, we'd probably, first and foremost, have prove that there was a loss to be able to speculate, would we not? I don't work at the sharp end at Sony to have an idea of what there realistic goals were for it.

But personally I don't think they were that high though, going off of the lack of any substantial advertising campaign and all personnel at Sony already focussed on the already released PS4, and getting off to the best start they possibly could, which is wayyy more important than wasting any time or money on promoting last gen software. I can't seeing it being high on there priority list, do you?
So we can't speculate without proof and you admit you have no idea what Sony's goals were for GT6 and then proceed to speculate that the goals weren't that high, all personnel at Sony were focused on PS4, promoting last gen software is a waste of money and it wasn't high on their priority list. Sounds like a lot of speculation to me. Hard to believe you are suggesting Sony didn't care about their premiere gaming franchise, one that has generated revenue in the $Billions for them in terms of GT game sales and console + other software sales.

I think the inclusion of 24 minutes races as opposed to 24 hours could be considered a sign that even Sony themselves didn't want people spending too much time on a last gen console game. It also lacked any sort of depth whatsoever compared to the rest. This may be an exaggeration but I think I could have finished GT6 faster than GT PSP. So, judging by the product it could also be argued PD were already focussing on next gen too (there may well be evidence of this out there in the form of quotes of when development started for GT7, but I am not sure).
This defies all logic. Why would Sony purposely drive people away from a last gen console game, when for months on their next gen console there were only arcade racers and the first sim racing game didn't come along for 18 months? Where were these supposedly driven away people supposed to go for their racing fix due to a purposeful lack of depth in GT6? How exactly would a purposefully crappy GT6 entice people to buy a PS4 when the only sim racing game on console for the first 18 months of GT6 was on XBone?
 
463
England
England
I am sorry Johnny but I will not engage in another debate with you until I see either a solid argument from the last debate or you admit you have not got one. It's up to you though, It's not my integrity taking a hit.

But until then, consider yourself ignored by me as you're a proven flight risk when it gets too hot 👍
 
1,392
United Kingdom
London, UK
Shirrako
Neither old nor a new breath of life.

A complete new universe with different oxygen sounds about right :embarrassed:
 

Johnnypenso

Well known double poster
Premium
28,466
Canada
Windsor, Ontario, Canada
Johnnypenso
I am sorry Johnny but I will not engage in another debate with you until I see either a solid argument from the last debate or you admit you have not got one. It's up to you though, It's not my integrity taking a hit.

But until then, consider yourself ignored by me as you're a proven flight risk when it gets too hot 👍
A solid argument to disprove an anonymous source on the internet?
smiley-laughing001.gif

I'll get right on it
coffee.gif
.