GT7 is a weird racing game (compared to others)

  • Thread starter Djuvinile
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Djuvinile

Djuvinile

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Netherlands
Netherlands
Although i enjoy certain aspects of GT7 like its graphics, car details, getting licences and collect cars, i keep thinking it's still an odd one for "normal racing". Why does every race and almost every mission have to be "play catch up on 1st" after a rolling start. Why doesnt "the real driving simulator" challenge you to set a good lap on your own in a practice session before you qualify and then race from a standing start like racing is intended to be? I know.. no one has the right answer to this one, but for me its really a "why" in terms of why do they think this is better or more enjoyable? i mean its not like they couldnt do it like that, its game design. Somewhere Kaz or other PD crew think this is better than do normal race weekends right? . and i know this was in all GT's sofar, but why? in my opinion it would make it such a more immersive experience then constant starting from the back and make your way forward. I bet this has been brought up to the forum many times, but i couldnt resist ventilating my thoughts on this.
 
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The whole catch the rabbit style "races" begun with Gran Turismo 4. However, it wasn't THAT bad since it only happens with some tracks, the distance between the cars were fairly close and in championships, you could actually qualify and start at pole position.

However, it started to get really bad with the season events in GT5 and then GT6 as a whole. It's basically them artificially making the races more "challenging" by making the A.Is start as far away as possible from the player. Because otherwise, you'll just breeze through them since the A.Is are terribly slow.

For whatever reason, either because of greed or sheer incompetence, they kept using this system of races.
 
In all honesty, even in the games that have Good AI like iRacing and ACC, racing against AI still sucks. You can still hit restart any time they mess you up, or if you make a mistake, which kills the enjoyment for me. If I want a challenge, racing online against real people in a one off/ can’t restart situation is what’s fun. AI racing will never be able to replicate that.
 
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Djuvinile
you to set a good lap on your own in a practice session before you qualify and then race from a standing start like racing is intended to be?
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Certainly no harm in having a mix of start types, but this is just a bad take. Most GT3 and GT4 based series, DTM, SuperGT, IMSA, WEC, Le Mans, NLS/N24, Creventic, NASCAR and Indycar races utilise a Rolling start, or are they not how racing is intended to be? Granted the pinnacle, the king of all series, the best of the best, the British Touring Car Championship uses standing starts, but still...

If you want to see if you think it would be better to have a grid start and start from near the front, set up a custom race and give it a go.
 
Yes, it's been brought up a lot for several years.

Sadly, here is everything PD themselves have had to say on the matter:

tumbleweed GIF


Why nobody has (to my knowledge) directly asked them about it I don't know, but they're certainly not forthcoming on their own.
 
Samus
Why nobody has (to my knowledge) directly asked them about it I don't know, but they're certainly not forthcoming on their own.
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It would honestly be nice to see a full, in-depth interview about Gran Turismo and it's current state, what Kaz plans for the future of 7, what he wants to do differently in the future and of course, addressing fan concerns such as AI, Sport mode penalties etc.

Kaz doesn't seem like a difficult guy to talk to, I feel he's a guy you need to approach first to get info out of rather than wait for him to mention it.
 
Marty_Debiru
The reason is because it's a Japanese game. They made this formula in 1997 and since then they haven't re-invedted themselves. ANd probably will never change.
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I've played a few Japanese racing games from before Gran Turismo and this formula was not invented by Gran Turismo.

The legendary and somewhat underrated Top Gear franchise by Kemco inspired many of GT's core gameplay features. In the Top Gear games there was linear progression with upgradable cars racing on tracks from all around the world. Races consisted of starting 20th and the goal was to finish first or, at least, high enough to advance/win on points.

Kaz, influential as he is, applied the Top Gear gameplay to a game with licensed cars and added a few things of his own. You can say it's outdated, and I wouldn't disagree, but every modern racing game with a foot in the arcade genre has this type of gameplay.

The difference is probably that Gran Turismo sells itself as a more "professional" game so it's expected that it eventually abandons its arcade roots, and these races are one of the main things preventing the game from doing so.
 
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It's probably due to the AI's limitations. Sometimes it doesn't even acknowledge the player, imagine what could happen if the same AI was set to race wheel to wheel.

We have single player games with great AI, like F1 2020 for example, where you can adjust how hard the AI can be on a scale from 0 to 115 (if I remember correctly) and it's really fun to race, it reacts to the player, makes mistakes, collide with each other. It feels organic, GT is never even close to that. At the present state, racing in GT7 feels like a time trial with traffic, like when you are trying to do a hot lap on a track day.
 
MatskiMonk
Certainly no harm in having a mix of start types, but this is just a bad take. Most GT3 and GT4 based series, DTM, SuperGT, IMSA, WEC, Le Mans, NLS/N24, Creventic, NASCAR and Indycar races utilise a Rolling start, or are they not how racing is intended to be? Granted the pinnacle, the king of all series, the best of the best, the British Touring Car Championship uses standing starts, but still...

If you want to see if you think it would be better to have a grid start and start from near the front, set up a custom race and give it a go.
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Very few racing series utilize standing starts, for good reason: a standing launch is incredibly hard on the cars and they're one of the most frequent causes of crashes. Even the best drivers in the world (F1) regularly have turn 1 incidents due to the chaos of a standing start. Open wheelers have less issues with the launch, since they tend to be lighter, and so those series do continue to use it mostly for tradition's sake.
 
I have a very unpopular opinion that causes physical pain to PD cultists.

I think that Hermen Hulst and Kaz Yamauchi could create a PD branch in Europe (Italy or England) and hire several Europeans with racing game know-how, like those who worked at Codemasters, Milestone, Kunos and Slighy Mad Studios. I'm sure they would add a lot to Sony-PD, bringing new techniques to produce and digitize new circuits and cars, as well as other technical of physics, by the way, to produce a new Tourist Trophy game.

The people at Milestone, for example, manage to deliver wonderful graphics and bring a variety of unprecedented and legendary circuits in RIDE and Moto GP, with the same graphic quality as in GT games. Imagine if they had all the budget and exclusive dedication to just one console?

Look:


Macau is a legendary circuit of GT racing. It should be a mandatory circuit for the Gran Turismo franchise. See the quality of the circuit, alive and organic, very different from the sterile, lifeless, desolate and inorganic scenery of Tokyo Expressway.
 
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Pigems
In all honesty, even in the games that have Good AI like iRacing and ACC, racing against AI still sucks. You can still hit restart any time they mess you up, or if you make a mistake, which kills the enjoyment for me. If I want a challenge, racing online against real people in a one off/ can’t restart situation is what’s fun. AI racing will never be able to replicate that.
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At the end of the day you have the choice to not use that restart function. Plus **** happens online too, I've had many a race ruined in the first lap or even the first corner after potentially an hour or more of practice + qualifying. At least AI in these sims can be challenging to beat in terms of race pace, unlike GT7.
 
Until Sophy comes out, assuming it does, I treat the AI as slightly more competent traffic to navigate through while trying to (a) improve lap times (b) learn the courses for multiplayer or (c) enjoy driving or testing tunes or interesting cars I've bought. Not ideal but I've made my peace with it. And I can spend hours on (c)...
 
Maybe I’m the only one with my opinion but to me I pretty much enjoy racing the AI in GT7 over any Daily/GTWS/Nation or whatever Public/Random People Race.
It’s not that I don’t like or get my Satisfaction too in racing Real People but 99.9% People are just Trash 😅
Selfish Wannabe SuperStar Racers who just don’t follow any Sportsmanship or refuse to accept to drive in an appropriate way.
Of course we‘re playing a Video Game but the lack of Seriousness is just shocking.
Racing AI in GT7 is an Art.
The whole point for me is to finish as high as possible WITHOUT making ANY single Contact with other Drivers.
I don’t care if I don’t finish first.
Of course I try my best, but if I can’t overtake without making Contact, I won’t go for it.
So far I’ve managed to win all of the Offline Races, Clean and Fair.
I‘m so obsessed with not making Contact, I even restart the Race if it accidentally happens.
No matter if it’s the first or the final Lap.
Hell, why does every Online Player Assume he has been chosen to Win a Race.
What Absurdity is driving them 😅
99.9% of my Offline Racing against the AI is outstandingly clean with no Contacts or Accidents.
Clean and fair overtaking and getting overtaken.
I treat the AI the same as I would treat Randoms racing Online and never have any Issues.
I think that is PD Philosophy behind their Decision to make the Offline Races the way they are.
I think to them, they want us Players to try and treat the Game like an artful Event.
And yes, I absolutely agree that the AI is not capable of creating a real People Race Experience but like I said before I think that this is not PDs‘ intention.
Like I said, I personally never had any issues racing against the AI.
Of course they could be smarter, but therefore we have Sport Mode, right 😉😅
 
I do have a friend that I invite over to play GT7 who has Forza Horizon 5 and one of his first comments was "there's no rewind feature?" which is not to make a negative judgment on Forza--Horizon is their more goofy version anyway, and if you're just in it for fun, and you have a lot of SP events you want to do (GT7's café menu is a bit lacking here), the rewind sounds like a good gameplay feature to keep you in the moment. The only game I've played with a feature like that is Prince of Persia Sands of Time way back in 2005 and it really enhanced that game as well.

But not having the ability to do that does force me to practice more in the old school sense, which improves my understanding of the car, the track, the physics, etc. And GT does claim to be a driving simulator, not a racing simulator, so in that sense it is not challenging ACC etc 😅
 
SugarBooger
I do have a friend that I invite over to play GT7 who has Forza Horizon 5 and one of his first comments was "there's no rewind feature?" which is not to make a negative judgment on Forza--Horizon is their more goofy version anyway, and if you're just in it for fun, and you have a lot of SP events you want to do (GT7's café menu is a bit lacking here), the rewind sounds like a good gameplay feature to keep you in the moment. The only game I've played with a feature like that is Prince of Persia Sands of Time way back in 2005 and it really enhanced that game as well.

But not having the ability to do that does force me to practice more in the old school sense, which improves my understanding of the car, the track, the physics, etc. And GT does claim to be a driving simulator, not a racing simulator, so in that sense it is not challenging ACC etc 😅
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Rewind was introduced in one of the Forza Motorsport games. And it was copied from Codemasters' GRID franchise (as usual when it comes to Forza).

In PoP, rewind wasn't unlimited. It was a legitimate power the Prince had, with perks and drawbacks. You needed at least one sand tank to use it, you couldn't go back in time as much as in Forza, and the platforming in those games could be punishing, so it made sense to have it as something you could use to prevent a cheap death, but not overuse.

In Forza, on the other hand, rewind is merely an "accessibility" or "convenience" feature that lets you brute force through challenges with minimal effort. Spam rewind and you win. At this point, it's not a game anymore, just a timesink.
 
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PirovacBoy
Maybe I’m the only one with my opinion but to me I pretty much enjoy racing the AI in GT7 over any Daily/GTWS/Nation or whatever Public/Random People Race.
It’s not that I don’t like or get my Satisfaction too in racing Real People but 99.9% People are just Trash 😅
Selfish Wannabe SuperStar Racers who just don’t follow any Sportsmanship or refuse to accept to drive in an appropriate way.
Of course we‘re playing a Video Game but the lack of Seriousness is just shocking.
Racing AI in GT7 is an Art.
The whole point for me is to finish as high as possible WITHOUT making ANY single Contact with other Drivers.
I don’t care if I don’t finish first.
Of course I try my best, but if I can’t overtake without making Contact, I won’t go for it.
So far I’ve managed to win all of the Offline Races, Clean and Fair.
I‘m so obsessed with not making Contact, I even restart the Race if it accidentally happens.
No matter if it’s the first or the final Lap.
Hell, why does every Online Player Assume he has been chosen to Win a Race.
What Absurdity is driving them 😅
99.9% of my Offline Racing against the AI is outstandingly clean with no Contacts or Accidents.
Clean and fair overtaking and getting overtaken.
I treat the AI the same as I would treat Randoms racing Online and never have any Issues.
I think that is PD Philosophy behind their Decision to make the Offline Races the way they are.
I think to them, they want us Players to try and treat the Game like an artful Event.
And yes, I absolutely agree that the AI is not capable of creating a real People Race Experience but like I said before I think that this is not PDs‘ intention.
Like I said, I personally never had any issues racing against the AI.
Of course they could be smarter, but therefore we have Sport Mode, right 😉😅
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Nice thought but I doubt that is their intention. Racing GT7 AI might be an art, but not a particularly relevant art. They don't drive anything like human drivers, so personally I think it has limited use. And of course, most of the time you never have to defend.

AI in most other sims is far more competitive and will teach you to race better than the poor excuse of AI in GT7.

One exception is the red chilli races. These races seem to have custom programmed AI so that they are much faster and have better lines. These are much more fun, but there are only a handful and once you have a track/car combo down, even these are relatively easy.
 
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