GTP Cool Wall: 2015 Dodge Charger SRT Hellcat

[Zenith]

And yet, it'll still roast pretty much anything on the street.

Why does it even matter?

Because it won't. That's the problem. Even if we ignore everything except straight line performance, it still finds a way to lose. It doesn't have the highest top speed of a sedan, it doesn't drag particularly well for a sedan.

 

[Slash]

Even still, 11s is enough to put a hurt on most street cars

 

[mustafur]

Zenith must own a P1 or something by the crap he is spilling.

 

[Cano]

Zenith must own a P1 or something by the crap he is spilling.

He is right by all accounts, altough 700 horses sounds like a lot, in these days it won't do. Specially if you're dragging 2 tons around.

 

[Zenith]

Even still, 11s is enough to put a hurt on most street cars

Most. Unfortunately the Charger is being marketed by Chrysler and worshipped by fans as some sort of quantum leap in performance when it simply isn't. This is the issue.

Zenith must own a P1 or something by the crap he is spilling.

You proved my point. I don't need a P1, I can give a Charger Hellcat a run for it's money or beat it with one of its German competitors. For some reason you pretend that this car is faster than it is...

 

[Tornado]

I hope your definition of what its German competitors are is a bit more specific than McLaren's "It's a sedan, so it competes with the Hellcat" was.

Most. Unfortunately the Charger is being marketed by Chrysler and worshipped by fans as some sort of quantum leap in performance when it simply isn't. This is the issue.

I see an awful lot more people blowing it off for selective reasoning than I do worshipping it for the same. Even early in this thread Camaro of all things was being put on a pedestal for how much better it is than the poor dumb Challenger and what Chrysler should have done.

 

[Zenith]

I hope your definition of what its German competitors are is a bit more specific than McLaren's "It's a sedan, so it competes with the Hellcat" was.

Panamera, M5, RS7, E class AMG, P85.

If we include price we get into a whole 'nother discussion.

I think a comparison with the established performance four door range is fair.

I see an awful lot more people blowing it off for selective reasoning than I do worshipping it for the same. Even early in this thread Camaro of all things was being put on a pedestal for how much better it is than the poor dumb Challenger and what Chrysler should have done.

Honestly I don't care if it can't handle. I'm perfectly fine with a car that handles like a whale but accelerates like a Saturn V rocket. The issue is the Hellcat really doesn't outperform it's rivals in the straights like people want to pretend it does.

 

[Leggy1]

altough 700 horses sounds like a lot, in these days it won't do.

These days, from 6.2 litres, in this class, with forced induction, it's not much. Some modern technology, like DOHC, next time Dodge?

 

[Cano]

These days, from 6.2 litres, in this class, with forced induction, it's not much. Some modern technology, like DOHC, next time Dodge?

No, you misinterpretted my post. The output of the engine is absolutely ok and in line with the american-style with which the brand is trying to sell it. 700 hp is a hoot and a half from a production car. What I'm saying is that it isn't enough for it to be all that Chrysler wants to claim it is.

 

[Leggy1]

No I got what you said no problem. I just though I would add something else

 

[Zenith]

These days, from 6.2 litres, in this class, with forced induction, it's not much. Some modern technology, like DOHC, next time Dodge?

On V motors like this OHV > DOHC. The last thing the Charger needs is a heavier motor with a higher Cg.

 

[OriginalCheezIt]

If it was a monster Chrysler 300 with 707hp, I'd subzero all damn day. But, it's a Dodge Charger. Uncool.

 

[Leggy1]

On V motors like this OHV > DOHC. The last thing the Charger needs is a heavier motor with a higher Cg.

But 2 valves are not efficient. European cars with big V8s don't use OHV.

I would like to see some innovation from the 'world's fastest saloon'. Not old fashioned technology. Although it keeps costs down, and CoG in this case.

 

[Slash]

Most. Unfortunately the Charger is being marketed by Chrysler and worshipped by fans as some sort of quantum leap in performance when it simply isn't. This is the issue.



You proved my point. I don't need a P1, I can give a Charger Hellcat a run for it's money or beat it with one of its German competitors. For some reason you pretend that this car is faster than it is...

I see it all the time. It really isn't the be all end all.

 

[Exorcet]

I would like to see some innovation from the 'world's fastest saloon'.

I'd rather it be the world's fastest. Spending additional money to add things that it doesn't need for the sake of making bigger poster boards sounds like terrible engineering. It's OHV because that's the better technology for this application.

 

[Zenith]

But 2 valves are not efficient. European cars with big V8s don't use OHV.

European does not mean better. The Corvette is getting fine efficiency out its 2V heads. Maybe being able to run a lower hood with a small, light motor is helping. The cam placement also allows it to run cylinder deactivation. How's that for innovation?

I would like to see some innovation from the 'world's fastest saloon'. Not old fashioned technology. Although it keeps costs down, and CoG in this case.

OHV and OHC were invented at about the same time. "Old fashioned" really doesn't mean anything here.

Sometimes innovation is being able to see the engine as a part of a bigger system. This is often better than sticking four bloody cams on top of a motor and making it fat, heavy, and complicated for the sake of having more valves per cylinder while sacrificing displacement.

Probably the most pressing issue for OHV motors is emissions, but forced induction and direct injection seem to work to compensate.

Edit: one could make the argument that since the Charger is so big that there's room in the engine bay for a DOHC V8 in addition to all the brake, steering, and emissions controls, but the practicality of Chrysler designing a high performance DOHC would come up.

 

[Slash]

I don't see why changing a format is such a big deal. Look at the Z06...keeping up with $400,000 cars with what is apparently ancient technology.

Ever heard the phrase if it works don't fix it?

 

[Badasp5.0]

European does not mean better.

You have been here long enough to know that is false

My vote is Cool and most dodges are massively uncool. Bonus points for using white sands as its press photo location.

 

[mustafur]

But 2 valves are not efficient. European cars with big V8s don't use OHV.

I would like to see some innovation from the 'world's fastest saloon'. Not old fashioned technology. Although it keeps costs down, and CoG in this case.

I see alot of European master race nonsense here without any information as to why.

Panamera, M5, RS7, E class AMG, P85.

If we include price we get into a whole 'nother discussion.

Not exactly, that is were the quantum leap in performance is.

Some may be faster to 60 or quartermile but for a car that is close to half or even more then that cheaper then everything there, thats is a quantum leap in performance for Value.

Not sure anyone.is saying this car is better then all those cars, I myself have driven the M5 F10 and sat in everycar there as well and imo the M5 is the best allround car and would likely be significantly better then the Hellcat interior wise and Dynamicly and has the ability to get to a scary speed within a split second just like the Hellcat and the others mentioned, however you do pay the premium. The Hellcat obviously has to save money somewhere as its soo much cheaper, unless they invented a new way to add premium equipment for free.

You can say: well its this fast so this is it's competition, but in reality its more like: You have this much money these are your choices and if your budget is is sub 70k all those cars are out of the equation.

 

[Zenith]

I don't see why changing a format is such a big deal. Look at the Z06...keeping up with 400,000 cars with what is apparently ancient technology.

Ever heard the phrase if it works don't fix it?

This is true, but I resent it as an answer.

It paints the OHV design as something that is kept because it's traditional and familiar when that is not the case. Even with a clean slate there are many reasons to take a single cam OHV over a DOHC engine. I like to think that Chevy sticks with the design because they legitimately believe in it and the Corvette race team seems to agree.

Not exactly, that is were the quantum leap in performance is.

Some may be faster to 60 or quartermile but for a car that is close to half or even more then that cheaper then everything there, thats is a quantum leap in performance for Value.

Then why do I constantly see "707hp OMG" everywhere? Horsepower seems to be the main concern, not performance/$.

 

[Slash]

This is true, but I resent it as an answer.

It paints the OHV design as something that is kept because it's traditional and familiar when that is not the case. Even with a clean slate there are many reasons to take a single cam OHV over a DOHC engine. I like to think that Chevy sticks with the design because they legitimately believe in it and the Corvette race team seems to agree.



Then why do I constantly see "707hp OMG" everywhere? Horsepower seems to be the main concern, not performance/$.

There is absolutely no reason to develop a DOHC engine when this one seems to be getting the job done. Of course they have their advantages (me being an OHV guy in particular). Although I wouldn't go so far as to say it's because it's traditional and familiar; and while some people might see it that way I certainly don't. If there was reason to convert over they'd have done it by now. They are getting monsterous power while saving weight, and in GM's case, lowered the center of gravity with a lower hood line better than a bulky OHC engine can provide.

 

[mustafur]

Then why do I constantly see "707hp OMG" everywhere? Horsepower seems to be the main concern, not performance/$.

Because its a giant leap from a normal Charger maybe?

 

[SlipZtrEm]

I see alot of European master race nonsense here without any information as to why.

I see more double-posting, not even 48 hours after a warning about it. Use the multi-quote and/or Edit features.

 

[MOPARbarrett5]

It seens like the Hellcat has no closely matched competition yet. It is faster than the other American muscle as of now in acceleration and handles like a modern muscle car but has a slightly higher price. It is about equal in acceleration compared to German sedans with much higher price tags. It may not handle as well as the more expensive German cars, but it wasn't expected to.
The Hellcat is in its own category right now. It is faster in a straight line than other American cars but for a higher price. It has worse handling than German cars, but is much cheaper.
Until another manufacturer makes a heavy 700+ hp car that is crazily fast (interpret crazily however you want) in a straight line for around $70,000, the Hellcat has no equally comparable competition.
For now the Hellcat is the best car ever made..... for its category: Heavy and fast American muscle that can outrun almost anyone in the most American way possible- In a straight line.

 

[Doog]

It seens like the Hellcat has no closely matched competition yet. It is faster than the other American muscle as of now in acceleration and handles like a modern muscle car but has a slightly higher price. It is about equal in acceleration compared to German sedans with much higher price tags. It may not handle as well as the more expensive German cars, but it wasn't expected to.
The Hellcat is in its own category right now. It is faster in a straight line than other American cars but for a higher price. It has worse handling than German cars, but is much cheaper.
Until another manufacturer makes a heavy 700+ hp car that is crazily fast (interpret crazily however you want) in a straight line for around $70,000, the Hellcat has no equally comparable competition.
For now the Hellcat is the best car ever made..... for its category: Heavy and fast American muscle that can outrun almost anyone in the most American way possible- In a straight line.

Username checks out.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

It has worse handling than German cars, but is much cheaper.

The BMW M4 starts at $1000 more than the Hellcat in America and, as you say, will run away from the Charger on a twisty road or technical track.

@Leggy1 The reason that an OHC setup is not advantageous on most American V8s but is a useful design feature on many European engines is simply the fact that OHV setups aren't able to rev as high. Most American V8s make power lower in the re rev range so there's no need to extract power through a sky high redline. European V8s tend to be somewhat smaller and are generally engineered to pull hard to a fairly high redline, so overhead cams are necessary to help prevent valve float, as well as reducing the moving mass inside the engine, letting it rev more freely. OHV setups are also much harder to use in 4 valve per cylinder setups, so larger valves are required, again increasing the risk of valve float at high rpms.

All this means that, very generally speaking, European V8s are engineered to make top end power and rev freely, while American V8s are tuned to make much more low end torque and peak power is therefore reached at a significantly lower rpm.

 

[mustafur]

He is right by all accounts, altough 700 horses sounds like a lot, in these days it won't do. Specially if you're dragging 2 tons around.

I was Unaware the cars he compared it to where not similar in weight, Because they are.

The BMW M4 starts at $1000 more than the Hellcat in America and, as you say, will run away from the Charger on a twisty road or technical track.

The thing is though im not sure this has even been proven, just more or less assumed(No Nurburgring times have been put down yet so I would wait for that first).

@Leggy1 The reason that an OHC setup is not advantageous on most American V8s but is a useful design feature on many European engines is simply the fact that OHV setups aren't able to rev as high. Most American V8s make power lower in the re rev range so there's no need to extract power through a sky high redline. European V8s tend to be somewhat smaller and are generally engineered to pull hard to a fairly high redline, so overhead cams are necessary to help prevent valve float, as well as reducing the moving mass inside the engine, letting it rev more freely. OHV setups are also much harder to use in 4 valve per cylinder setups, so larger valves are required, again increasing the risk of valve float at high rpms.

All this means that, very generally speaking, European V8s are engineered to make top end power and rev freely, while American V8s are tuned to make much more low end torque and peak power is therefore reached at a significantly lower rpm.

But With Forced induction becoming widespread across the automotive industry High revving N/A engines are becoming less common, not to mention all the German Saloons are all Running Turbos now.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

The thing is though im not sure this has even been proven, just more or less assumed(No Nurburgring times have been put down yet so I would wait for that first).

Nurburgring lap times won't always give a good indicator of real world performance. As I said, a twisty road or technical track will be too small and tight for the heavy, enormous Charger.

But With Forced induction becoming widespread across the automotive industry High revving N/A engines are becoming less common, not to mention all the German Saloons are all Running Turbos now.

Where did I talk about aspiration? All of what I said is true for forced induction, with a few caveats. In a turbocharged engine, controlling the nature of combustion in the cylinder is very important, and a great deal of this control comes from the valve timing. Being able to vary the valve timing makes the engine much cleaner and much more flexible, so a DOHC setup is helpful in this regard. Additionally, a turbocharged engine must breathe well so if it only has two valves per cylinder it will need relatively large, heavy valves.

 

[mustafur]

Nurburgring lap times won't always give a good indicator of real world performance. As I said, a twisty road or technical track will be too small and tight for the heavy, enormous Charger.

A Technical track is real world performance?

last I heard the Nurburgring is the most viisited track in the world by the average motorist, one that any could simply pay a few euros and drive around.

Not to mention this is cherry picking, what about straight line performance, where is the M4 then?
what about rear doors?

Yes there is the M3 but the M4 it self makes compromises and so does the charger.

Its a Car more weighted to something over another yes, and that's what it's good for. If you your self with your own opinion and beliefs want it to do something else, well Dodge isn't putting a gun to your head to buy this(but like all companys they will gladly accept your money lol).

 

[Legro]

(No Nurburgring times have been put down yet so I would wait for that first).

What's the point with the Nurburgring time with the Charger Hellcat anyway? If you want a saloon to drive on the Nurburgring, it probably wouldn't be the Charger.