GTP_WRS Team Trial Challenge: Feedback & Suggestion Thread

[Jump_Ace]

GTP_WRS Team Trial Challenge: Feedback & Suggestion Thread

We hoped you've enjoyed our first attempt at a team based WRS competition.

Now it's your chance to give some feedback and suggestions on what you'd like to change.

Just about anything is on the table, from format, to team sizes, to number of weeks, or other rules you'd like to see put in place. Prefer to have just one member from each division, feel the handicap multiplier needs adjusting? Would you like to have the TTC also be WRS integrated events exclusively (like the first two weeks were)? Let us know what you think would make it a better, more enjoyable series. Be specific as possible.

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OLR Team

 

[Argon]

It was a fun few weeks and I was lucky to have a great bunch (Morph's Muppets) to drive with but after the first week it seemed fairly obvious that the scoring mechanism was weighted in favour of the outright position rather than a handicap adjusted position. This became very apparent in week 2 when our entrant that week performed way above his handicap and was placed 1st in the normal TT handicap system yet we had a very mediocre team score.

It was also a little unfair that not everyone got to submit a lap despite putting in an enormous amount of effort in support of each other. I realise this was known at the outset but in future events I'd like to see every team member submit a lap.

The other thing that I would like is for these to be part of the normal TT's as they were in the first 2 weeks. Finding time to do one TT a week has been hard for me this year, finding time for 2, almost impossible.

This was a great idea, and I would love to take part again in similar events but not unless there were some changes as outlined above but most importantly the scoring.

Well done everyone that took part and thanks very much to Jerome (@Jump_Ace) and the rest of the admin team involved in setting this up and running it.

 

[The Boss69]

I must say I've really enjoyed the team based WRS competition. Though I might not have been good enough to be able to contribute to our teams success, it's been great fun with the team spirit and the possibility to work together and help each other on tactics, and ways to improve. This is encouraging and helps to improve our skills.


The variation between slow and fast cars, dirt/snow and race tracks are good, and should be continued is there is more to come.


The handicap multiplier needs adjusting might need a little adjustment as the results shows that the less skilled drivers are not able to compete with the elite, even after the handicap multiplier.


To the OLR team and Team Captainswhospendsthe time and effort to make this happen.

 

[Nemo Niente]

I agree whole-heartedly with Mike (@Argon).

It was a great few weeks 👍 and I will gladly participate again - provided something radical is done about the scoring system.

As I said to my team mates, I am normally at the top end of the handicapped results, meaning that I should at least have a theoretical chance at a competitive time, in a team event, alas with this set up my handicap was useless.

I also want the team events run as weekly WRS, because running two events is simply too much, for me both time wise and credit wise.

Great Idea guys:tup:

 

[AspecBob]

Speaking in my own name only, I have to say that I, also, agree with Mike's points, mainly that:

• it was a great idea;
• the scoring system needs adjusting.

Thank you very much Jerome for organizing this!

 

[mr_lab_rat]

Great experience. Very well handled by organizers from the idea through the execution and support.
I got to meet some great people in our team and it gave me motivation to push even harder than usual for good result.
The handicap system clearly favoured faster drivers so team without aliens didn't have much chance to score high. But that doesn't mean it wasn't fun.

 

[Killermiller24]

I really enjoyed the events....teamspirit, some extra effort only because you are part of a team, nice events...it was fun for real...

I dont like the handicap multiplier, as a driver with a bad hanicap it was quite impossible to get some good points...impossible to compete with the aliens...

and 2 TT's in one week is too much, the first 2 weeks it was perfect....

it would be also good to make teams by something like a draft....that at the beginning there are some captains..and they pick their drivers out of a pool....or that the admins make teams, with similar handicaps...


but like I said, Im happy to compete with you guys and be part of the community

Thank you

 

[Spud_Skills]

Bullet points for improvements:

- Change the handicap weighting, maybe not as strong as the normal handicap results, but made a lot closer.

- An average of 3 players points for each week and the ability to submit more than one week. This will keep the team-work higher and it won't necessarily mean the 3 best drivers submit if the handicap weight is adjusted. This will add a new element of skill.

- Run it with the normal WRS. As others have said, finding time to put solid effort in to two time trials when you have other commitments is hard.

 

[Jump_Ace]

Great info so far guys, thank you. The more info the better


Jerome

 

[mr_lab_rat]

If there will be another team event I would like to see:

No alternates so the same number of team members as events. Maybe allow exception for submitting twice if someone drops out.
No special team only events, just use the regular WRS like the first two weeks here.
How about a combination? Submitting an average of two or more members (still adjusted by handicap system).
I'll probably have more ideas later

 

[GTP_Patrick1]

Make the events the same as weekly TT. I hate not submitting a time for the TT for a week, and this week I put all my time into Tokyo. Perhaps the scoring system might need tweaking, although not exactly sure how to go about that. Everything else was great, thanks Jerome 👍 for putting this together.

 

[Doodle]

Maybe allow exception for submitting twice if someone drops out.

This, please. It was quite frustrating after I put in a ton of effort into the first week, but all of my other teammates were too busy to give the other combos a good go. Let alone even doing a few laps on them!

Even so, this was a great idea and I hope to see this return in the future.

 

[Jump_Ace]

This, please. It was quite frustrating after I put in a ton of effort into the first week, but all of my other teammates were too busy to give the other combos a good go. Let alone even doing a few laps on them!

Even so, this was a great idea and I hope to see this return in the future.

Letting a teammate submit twice won't happen as teams could have their best driver submit twice, and is why I wanted alternates on the teams; in case driver(s) get busy someone can fill in for that week.

It sounds like the handicap multiplier needs some twerking.

Is having 4 events/weeks too long, or short? What is the consensus on having a driver from each division on a team?


Jerome

 

[mr_lab_rat]

I think 4 weeks was good.
Maybe we should start from the other end. What was the one thing people enjoyed the most? For me it was the ability to improve by chasing my faster teammate's ghosts.
What if we submit two times for each week - the fastest and the slowest. The fast drivers will have their shootout and the slower drivers will have great motivation to push hard and will get help from the other team members.

 

[GTP_Patrick1]

Letting a teammate submit twice won't happen as teams could have their best driver submit twice, and is why I wanted alternates on the teams; in case driver(s) get busy someone can fill in for that week.

It sounds like the handicap multiplier needs some twerking.

Is having 4 events/weeks too long, or short? What is the consensus on having a driver from each division on a team?


Jerome

I have no problem with the fastest drivers being rewarded the most, but if the idea is to try and even the playing field the handicap system needs to be tweaked some as the handicap did not quite make up for the point differential you got for the overall finish. The other idea of having each team have someone from each division would work too. This is all for fun and I liked the concept, and in the big picture where you finish is not the most important thing. If we were to keep the team competition separate from the normal TT, then I would also suggest no tuning as that adds quite a bit of time when you are always wondering if the car could be tweaked a little bit better. The other thing I liked, it was nice to chat back and forth with my teammates and learn a little about their lives outside of WRS.

Overall, I had a fun time, thanks again for your time you put into organizing this.

 

[Cats_PJs]

I think one team member from each division is a great idea. You wouldn't need to adjust the handicap system if the teams were all similar in skill level.

 

[Thematic]

Looks like the handicap is the way, or will have a much smaller number of teams (unless they are all 4 members). I liked the idea of exclusive TTs, maybe it could be three shared ones and the final just for the team comp.?

 

[Argon]

Don't like the idea of trying to even things up by selecting one driver from each division. That will make the team construction really restrictive and it won't IMO balance out the scoring issue. There is a whole range of capability between the bottom and top of a single division so no, not for me.

I don't mind how long the team event lasts as long as there is an opportunity for EVERY team member to submit a lap. There should be an allowance for one member to submit twice to account for the inevitable availability issues that might arise and I'm sure that there could be some rule about it has to be the lowest ranked driver to ensure that teams don't invent a situation just so they can submit twice with the best driver.

 

[mistersafeway]

Why not do the scoring along the lines of overall position + handicap position = lower number gets higher position for points? I think that could solve the problem of slower drivers not having much of a chance.

 

[Stevious]

The team game is great idea on many levels. I agree with the general consensus about the points weighting and keeping the races to weekly and integrated with normal TTs.
I believe there is too much focus on one individual team driver each week. It needs to be more of a collective effort.
Definitely no people should be submitting twice. That's not a team game.

So how about this for an idea:
Every member of the team submits one lap each (which they do anyway for regular TT) and the total 5 drivers lap times are added up (total about 6 minutes for example).
Then this collective time accumulates over (about) 10 weeks, like tour-de-France total time scoring.

To keep the total team times relatively even, the average team handicap should have a lower limit, such as 2.5. So no team can have an average of 1.9, like the Old Farts.
This rule would not restrict the selection so much because two or three buddies just need to look for a final driver with a handicap to balance their team average as close to 2.5 as they can.
In effect this would push the advantage towards the less established drivers who are more likely to perform above their par. The more established drivers would still be in demand due to their consistently low times, but you can only have one D1G or you will blow the 'driver average' budget.
A captain may decide to build a team with 4x D2S instead. Its kind of like fantasy football where the teams all have the same 'value'. So no team will streak ahead and any losses can be gained week on week. Keeping it interesting and competitive
Alternate cannot replace a person who is a higher handicap
The handicaps list is updated before teams are chosen
Just a thought.



Here is how the teams performed compared to team average
We can see that a fine effort was made by the paddies to get to third with a Div3 average

 

[ollie57]

A very good fun event.. that I enjoyed along with my team mates.. However I strongly agree with the general view about the scoring..

Some Div 4 Drivers.. spent hours.. getting there times down.. even knowing after the first week.. that there laps would never be submitted.. due the points system.. I can understand them having strong reservations.. about entering an event like this again..

Even I would not bother again.. if the scoring system remains the same..

 

[Killermiller24]

Wow, and

The team game is great idea on many levels. I agree with the general consensus about the points weighting and keeping the races to weekly and integrated with normal TTs.
I believe there is too much focus on one individual team driver each week. It needs to be more of a collective effort.
Definitely no people should be submitting twice. That's not a team game.

So how about this for an idea:
Every member of the team submits one lap each (which they do anyway for regular TT) and the total 5 drivers lap times are added up (total about 6 minutes for example).
Then this collective time accumulates over (about) 10 weeks, like tour-de-France total time scoring.

To keep the total team times relatively even, the average team handicap should have a lower limit, such as 2.5. So no team can have an average of 1.9, like the Old Farts.
This rule would not restrict the selection so much because two or three buddies just need to look for a final driver with a handicap to balance their team average as close to 2.5 as they can.
In effect this would push the advantage towards the less established drivers who are more likely to perform above their par. The more established drivers would still be in demand due to their consistently low times, but you can only have one D1G or you will blow the 'driver average' budget.
A captain may decide to build a team with 4x D2S instead. Its kind of like fantasy football where the teams all have the same 'value'. So no team will streak ahead and any losses can be gained week on week. Keeping it interesting and competitive
Alternate cannot replace a person who is a higher handicap
The handicaps list is updated before teams are chosen
Just a thought.



Here is how the teams performed compared to team average
We can see that a fine effort was made by the paddies to get to third with a Div3 average


View attachment 142164

Proud to be a Paddie

 

[oink83]

Firstly congratulations to everyone that participated, and a fine effort on behalf of the admins involved, especially for a new idea like this.

Sorry if it was mentioned before but didn't get much time right now to read through all what has been said, but one idea I had regarding possible missing drivers or what have you is you could have a mulligan week. Every team gets one mulligan so if things just don't work out 1 week and no one is available for putting up a time, or perhaps if you think that you were particularly weak in 1 event, you can throw that one in the bin. Everyone gets only 1 mulligan, and every team must use it once.

Anyway, look forward to more specials in the future and Go Team 3D3 on the podium!

 

[AspecBob]

Lots of good ideas being put forward. Another possibility that crossed my mind as I was reading them, would be to have all X events known at the same time and we get X weeks to run them all, allowing each member to find out which event suits them best during, say, the first week, and then each team assigning a particular combo to a particular member for the rest of the time. That could take care of the potential availability issue since we'd have more than one week for our chosen combo, and therefore no need for alternates.

Ok, I admit this idea is only half-baked, but I thought I'd throw it out there...

 

[Mr P]

Thanks for creating the comp Jerome it was a nice change to work with a team of old friends again 👍

I do agree that the points made it easier for a seasoned team of racers to rack up the points weekly and grab the overall win tactically and hope for the next time we do this that a better points system is in place to make things more interesting as this season was a far gone conclusion by round 3 tbh

In GT years gone by a comp like this would be posted and we would have racers of all skill sets form teams and there was no WRS ranking system to compare against each driver individually as some comps where forum v forum in massive comps (although the super elite drivers did stand out from past wins and world leader board rankings for TT's and licenses etc..) that ran sometimes from 4, 6, to 10 weeks and the idea was to invite drivers you knew were super competitive and committed to the team.

The old farts is simply a team of friends who I have either raced with in teams from days gone by or against in forum comps, (it's hard to believe that over 10 years ago I was chasing eclipsee in GT3 and GT4 comps and he was pretty uncatchable back then too ) when i saw this comp posted and showed interest I sent a few invites out and we formed a team that I knew each one will see it through until the end 👍 It wasn't supposed to be a team that would dominate the competition but more just a gathering of old friends reliving the old days and having some team spirit! ... we enjoyed it thoroughly!

I would like to send a Big Thanks to all the old farts (Kelly, Niels, Ramon, Chris, and Joao) for seeing this comp through to the end with flying colours once again... I have total respect for you all 👍

btw a few years ago I done a comp called the arc (arcade rally competition) it was a 6 week event at most and all 6 cars were declared from the offset, all cars were stock arcade with option of tar or dirt boots for road or rally, you just had to figure what car was the best car for each track as they were posted weekly... might make things a bit more interesting when you don't know what car let alone the driver until the deadline just a suggestion?

Sorry about the long winded post

We will be happy to do this again soon with a better scoring system and will try and cause some more upsets
Cheers
Ron.

 

[Jump_Ace]

Thanks for creating the comp Jerome it was a nice change to work with a team of old friends again 👍

I do agree that the points made it easier for a seasoned team of racers to rack up the points weekly and grab the overall win tactically and hope for the next time we do this that a better points system is in place to make things more interesting as this season was a far gone conclusion by round 3 tbh

In GT years gone by a comp like this would be posted and we would have racers of all skill sets form teams and there was no WRS ranking system to compare against each driver individually as some comps where forum v forum in massive comps (although the super elite drivers did stand out from past wins and world leader board rankings for TT's and licenses etc..) that ran sometimes from 4, 6, to 10 weeks and the idea was to invite drivers you knew were super competitive and committed to the team.

The old farts is simply a team of friends who I have either raced with in teams from days gone by or against in forum comps, (it's hard to believe that over 10 years ago I was chasing eclipsee in GT3 and GT4 comps and he was pretty uncatchable back then too ) when i saw this comp posted and showed interest I sent a few invites out and we formed a team that I knew each one will see it through until the end 👍 It wasn't supposed to be a team that would dominate the competition but more just a gathering of old friends reliving the old days and having some team spirit! ... we enjoyed it thoroughly!

I would like to send a Big Thanks to all the old farts (Kelly, Niels, Ramon, Chris, and Joao) for seeing this comp through to the end with flying colours once again... I have total respect for you all 👍

btw a few years ago I done a comp called the arc (arcade rally competition) it was a 6 week event at most and all 6 cars were declared from the offset, all cars were stock arcade with option of tar or dirt boots for road or rally, you just had to figure what car was the best car for each track as they were posted weekly... might make things a bit more interesting when you don't know what car let alone the driver until the deadline just a suggestion?

Sorry about the long winded post

We will be happy to do this again soon with a better scoring system and will try and cause some more upsets
Cheers
Ron.

We'll be messing with the base points and multiplier to unholy depths for the next one for sure

We would like to thank everyone for participating I'll fully admit it may not have been optimal this first go around, but we have a lot more feedback and data to churn through for the next one which we want to be better and more balanced. Keep the feedback & suggestions coming, no holds barred!

Jerome

 

[CSLACR]

I've been wanting to mention what a great idea I think this was, I was very disappointed to see I missed out!

I hope there is another one in the coming weeks.

 

[anastasis14]

Ok, here is a part of a pm I sent to Jerome around week 2 of the challenge regarding the point system. It's not a suggestion for balancing the system, but it's a little nice addition which adds some discussion between team members!

Each team from the start gets a one-time token. This token, can be used on one driver, to double the points he managed that week. Let me give you an example. A team throughout the 4 weeks manages to take 25, 10, 12 and 4 points. The team must decide if they will use this token obviously before the week ends. Lets say the team found the correct opportunity and used their token the first week. They double their first week points and make it 50. They can't use any token for the remaining weeks. Teams have to submit if they will use their token along with the driver at that week!

Oh, and I'd love to see another team challenge taking place!

 

[Stotty]

Really enjoyed the competition 👍

The enjoyment for me comes from the team element – having a team with my old mates in it. So please don’t change how the teams are set up. Let us race with whoever we want to.

But obviously the scoring system needs a bit of work as it favours faster drivers too much as has been mentioned.

Other than that, I thought the track and car choices were excellent, but the tarmac events were a all a bit grippy for me... the 3 cars had different levels of performance, but all had aero and the tyres were S3’s or slicks.

For example; IMO, the RX7 event would have been better with a stock car on SH tyres.

And even though we have a few really good tuners on our team, it would be nice to have at least 1 event with no tuning too... which would level the playing field for those teams without good tuners.

Looking forward to the next one.

 

[Mr P]

Too many threads in the GT6 racing series section so I will post a sneaky link in here just incase anyone is interested and chances are it wont be noticed in there

Thanks for the race series Jerome, it inspired me to post a rally car season here's the link below, feel free to show interest anyone and everyone 👍

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/src-5-of-the-best-interest-thread.307173/

Will set the ball rolling with a start date when we see some interested parties
Cheers
Ron.