h pattern gearbox vs paddles

[DaBomm4]

AFAIK, the only thing it would do is apply a miniscule bit of wear to the return springs. In essence, it's little different than shifting to neutral, since both effectively disconnect the drive shaft(s) from the engine.

Personally, it's not something I would tend to do in real life, although when driving a clutch equipped car, I often find myself slipping into 1970s gas-saving techniques and coasting down long hills, an after effect of having lived through the old world aristocracy's first sucker punch in their long battle to the NWO that I don't quite seem to be able to shake.

Yes, I understand that it would wear the spring out faster, but it would not cause actual damage to the transmission. I think this is all cleared up now though.

 

[xiando]

So there's some engine breaking if you keep the clutch engaged while cornering, which goes back to my original post, when you depress the clutch while cornering, forgetting about what it's doing to the engine or transmission ( I'm talking about the game now), in theory the car will have more speed since engine braking is absent. Please correct me if I'm wrong

In real life, if you disconnect your engine from the road (depress clutch or shift to neutral), you will not experience engine/transmission braking, (except from the tiny bit of left-over frictional forces in the rotating linkage components), so in the absense of both engine/transmission braking or apply the brake pedal with exactly equal force in both conditions (with or with out engine braking), your speed at the point of disconnect will be maintained more than when not disconnected, since frictional forces are reduced when in Neutral (clutch on is effectively 'neutral', regardless of it being a "bad" driving technique that often results in faster wear on the clutch in real life for the majority of drivers)

I can't say for the game though, since I only have a DFGT, and since there's no clutch per-say on the DFGT, I don't have a neutral with which to coast. If the soft clutch provided by the G27 and other wheels does actually engage "Neutral" then yes, one would expect the physics engine to produce similar results to those in the real world, since you'd be coasting.

 

[KLEBESTIFT]

Can someone explain how having the clutch depressed when coasting causes damage? There is no reason why that would happen that I can think of. Damage should only happen when changing from engaged and depressed.

Two possibilities that I can think of: the clutch "throw out bearing" (or "release bearing") is only engaged when the clutch pedal is depressed so having this spinning all the time while coasting down hills (and at higher than normal speed - see below) will cause increased wear.

Second, if you coast with the clutch pedal in but leave the transmission in gear, the vehicle speed could increase beyond what the normal speed for that gear. As the transmission is still in gear, the input shaft (normally driven by the engine through the clutch) is being driven by the wheels and could reach excessive speeds ( > normal operating RPM for the engine). This only really happens if you're coasting at high speed in a low gear though.

 

[Gr8888T]

If you can drive at a safe speed with the clutch engaged, how will the wheels be spinning to fast for the input shaft when you disengage the clutch at the same speed?

 

[et_]

So there's some engine breaking if you keep the clutch engaged while cornering, which goes back to my original post, when you depress the clutch while cornering, forgetting about what it's doing to the engine or transmission ( I'm talking about the game now), in theory the car will have more speed since engine braking is absent. Please correct me if I'm wrong

If you press down the clutch the car will carry more speed and understeer more than if you leave it engaged, yes.

If you can drive at a safe speed with the clutch engaged, how will the wheels be spinning to fast for the input shaft when you disengage the clutch at the same speed?

Lets take an example, lets say you're cruising the highway at 100mph (roughly 140kmh), you press down the clutch and put it in 1'st gear, that is still not a problem, no wear, no damage, all good. But what would happen if you released the clutch?

Option 1: The gearbox splinters into a thousand pieces due to the extreme stress to the cogs.
Option 2: The engine will rev way above its capabilities, with damaged valves as a result, and probably more than that.
Option 3: The friction of the engine will lock up the tyres and you'll most certainly crash the car.
Option 4: The clutch will slip when released, the car will slow down and the clutch will burn up.

option 1 is the most likely to occur if you release the clutch fast, if you release it more slowly, option 2 is most likely.
option 3 will only occur in a car with a big engine, and rear wheel drive, something like the BMW 750 e32 or similar.
option 4 will only occur if your clutch is worn out.

 

[DaBomm4]

If you press down the clutch the car will carry more speed and understeer more than if you leave it engaged, yes.

@Gr8888T is saying that the game does not model this correctly.

Lets take an example, lets say you're cruising the highway at 100mph (roughly 140kmh), you press down the clutch and put it in 1'st gear, that is still not a problem, no wear, no damage, all good. But what would happen if you released the clutch?

Option 1: The gearbox splinters into a thousand pieces due to the extreme stress to the cogs.
Option 2: The engine will rev way above its capabilities, with damaged valves as a result, and probably more than that.
Option 3: The friction of the engine will lock up the tyres and you'll most certainly crash the car.
Option 4: The clutch will slip when released, and make the car slow down.

option 1 is the most likely to occur if you release the clutch fast, if you release it more slowly, option 2 is most likely.
option 3 will only occur in a car with a big engine, and rear wheel drive, something like the BMW 750 e32 or similar.
option 4 will only occur if your clutch is worn out.

This all makes sense for your example, but lets say you don't change gears and all you do is coast a ways with the clutch depressed and then re-engaged it again, would there be any damage that could be caused by this, except option one with releasing the clutch too fast?

 

[et_]

@Gr8888T is saying that the game does not model this correctly.

This all makes sense for your example, but lets say you don't change gears and all you do is coast a ways with the clutch depressed and then re-engaged it again, would there be any damage that could be caused by this, except option one with releasing the clutch too fast?

the only thing I can imagine is if the speed is increased drastically, and unless you're driving straight down a mountain, I dont see that happening. (above 80mph the speed is more likely to decrease due to drag)

 

[Gr8888T]

Makes sense!

 

[KLEBESTIFT]

If you can drive at a safe speed with the clutch engaged, how will the wheels be spinning to fast for the input shaft when you disengage the clutch at the same speed?

If the vehicle speed increases while you have the clutch pedal down - ie. coasting down a hill (which someone mentioned earlier in the thread)

Lets take an example, lets say you're cruising the highway at 100mph (roughly 140kmh), you press down the clutch and put it in 1'st gear, that is still not a problem, no wear, no damage, all good.

This is incorrect. When you attempt to put the transmission into first gear, the synchro will try to speed up the transmission input shaft to match the speed of the wheels/output shaft. If this worked, the input shaft would be spinning at something like 12-15k rpm (assuming 6k rpm in 1st = 40mph). More likely, you'll hear a crunch and you won't be able to put it into first. If you start out in first (or second or third), then put the clutch in and coast down a long enough hill, the input shaft will spin too fast.

@Gr8888TThis all makes sense for your example, but lets say you don't change gears and all you do is coast a ways with the clutch depressed and then re-engaged it again, would there be any damage that could be caused by this, except option one with releasing the clutch too fast?

Extra wear on the clutch throw out bearing - but that is not technically in the transmission.

 

[TeamCZRRacing]

I don't drive a manual in real life, so when you break into a corner the clutch shouldn't be depressed at the same time? That would rev the engine to much right...

No. When braking for a corner, you drop the clutch after each shift. From what I understand the additional friction in the gearbox helps the rear wheels slow down.

 

[et_]

This is incorrect. When you attempt to put the transmission into first gear, the synchro will try to speed up the transmission input shaft to match the speed of the wheels/output shaft. If this worked, the input shaft would be spinning at something like 12-15k rpm (assuming 6k rpm in 1st = 40mph). More likely, you'll hear a crunch and you won't be able to put it into first. If you start out in first (or second or third), then put the clutch in and coast down a long enough hill, the input shaft will spin too fast.

The input shaft would be spinning very fast, yes. but it can handle that, remember that that shaft is VERY well balanced. and if your synchro-rings cant handle that, they are beginning to wear down. I can put in 1'st gear in speeds of 200kmh (124mph) with my BMW 520i e34 '95 and that piece of **** has done over 300 000km (186 000miles)

 

[KLEBESTIFT]

The input shaft would be spinning very fast, yes. but it can handle that, remember that that shaft is VERY well balanced. and if your synchro-rings cant handle that, they are beginning to wear down. I can put in 1'st gear in speeds of 200kmh (124mph) with my BMW 520i e34 '95 and that piece of **** has done over 300 000km (186 000miles)

Fair enough. I've had to double-clutch to shift into first in a number of cars whenever the car is moving faster than crawling pace, but maybe I'm just not pushing the lever hard enough.

 

[et_]

Some cars are harder than others, BMW is probably the best there is when it comes to manual gearboxes. But you should'nt have to use force, just push gentle, and let it synchronize for about 1-1½ seconds, if it wont go in, try 2'nd and then go to 1'st. using brute force to put it in gear can seriously damage the synchronizer-rings.

 

[merlinrichards]

Yes I know when you drive in real life that's the proper technique, I'm talking about the game now, since you don't care if the car breaks, and you have unlimited number of tries to set a fast lap.

im not the best at it but try to do this technique when using the H box / clutch

 

[Gr8888T]

im not the best at it but try to do this technique when using the H box / clutch

Yea I do that too, it's more fun. My observation was just something I thought the game is doing when I had the clutch down during a corner, the speed could have simply be due to the corner was going downhill and the car gained more speed coasting.

 

[merlinrichards]

use the new data logger to find out. 👍 u can set up wheel speed and car speed with the revs and stuff

 

[acjy1985]

I've used heal and toe since i started driving on the road (before i used to track day where no license is required and was for juniors) so i was taught how to do it, my clutch has done over 100K and still good. I don't drive fast on the streets, usually 60-70mph on 70mph limit backroads. I tend to save speed for trackdays

You have found 70mph backroads(ie single carriageway) in the UK?

 

[ezfaun]

Disengaging the clutch lets you carry more speed by eliminating engine braking. Mind, that if you do that on tight corners, you'll have to brake much more than normal and it will cost you some time. And doing that in a high speed corner is also redundant considering it's better to modulate the accelerator/ brakes / or both to achieve the sweet spot of stability vs speed (which will make the best line emerge by itself).

The reason why people say skillful drivers can control their car like their hands and their feet is right in the saying itself. A car can't perform at it's limits based on steering or footwork alone. Braking and accelerating in corners greatly affects the stability and cornering dynamics of a vehicle at all axes, longitudinally and latitudinally and vertically across the four corners of the car plus the friction loads on the tires and their contact patches size and even shape. Disengaging the clutch will effectively remove a large portion of that control.

To sum it all up, de-clutching will let you carry more speed through the corner entry but at the expense of total control of your vehicle. To extract every single bit of performance of your vehicle you have to total control of it. This is also the reason why many new drivers crash their cars. They haven't learned how to control them and they haven't figured out their car's or their own limit. (Like I did when I de-clutched my bike in a corner similar to this.)

 

[FussyFez]

Disengaging the clutch lets you carry more speed by eliminating engine braking. Mind, that if you do that on tight corners, you'll have to brake much more than normal and it will cost you some time. And doing that in a high speed corner is also redundant considering it's better to modulate the accelerator/ brakes / or both to achieve the sweet spot of stability vs speed (which will make the best line emerge by itself).

The reason why people say skillful drivers can control their car like their hands and their feet is right in the saying itself. A car can't perform at it's limits based on steering or footwork alone. Braking and accelerating in corners greatly affects the stability and cornering dynamics of a vehicle at all axes, longitudinally and latitudinally and vertically across the four corners of the car plus the friction loads on the tires and their contact patches size and even shape. Disengaging the clutch will effectively remove a large portion of that control.

To sum it all up, de-clutching will let you carry more speed through the corner entry but at the expense of total control of your vehicle. To extract every single bit of performance of your vehicle you have to total control of it. This is also the reason why many new drivers crash their cars. They haven't learned how to control them and they haven't figured out their car's or their own limit. (Like I did when I de-clutched my bike in a corner similar to this.)

Whilst i agree in principle, it's a bad idea, and limits control.


I have to disagree with 'To sum it all up, de-clutching will let you carry more speed through the corner entry', surely a part 'neutral' throttle would eliminate engine braking, and a slight squeeze will see some accelerative force being applied, causing a gain in speed.


In real life, I never dip the clutch for extra cornering performance. Left foot braking maybe, as my FWD car is fitted with an LSD, it can really help the car rotate and pull itself out of the corner if i feel understeer could be an issue.


This isn't specificaly directed at you, but anyone.

 

[ezfaun]

Whilst i agree in principle, it's a bad idea, and limits control.


I have to disagree with 'To sum it all up, de-clutching will let you carry more speed through the corner entry', surely a part 'neutral' throttle would eliminate engine braking, and a slight squeeze will see some accelerative force being applied, causing a gain in speed.


In real life, I never dip the clutch for extra cornering performance. Left foot braking maybe, as my FWD car is fitted with an LSD, it can really help the car rotate and pull itself out of the corner if i feel understeer could be an issue.


This isn't specificaly directed at you, but anyone.

Wha? At the end of the second para', I said that Disengaging the clutch will effectively remove a large portion of that control. And I was generally trying to convey that it's a bad idea to do so

I guess my tone was too neutral so it may have sounded like I was siding on the idea of clutch releasing lol. Anyway, cheers

 

[FussyFez]

Wha? At the end of the second para', I said that Disengaging the clutch will effectively remove a large portion of that control. And I was generally trying to convey that it's a bad idea to do so

I guess my tone was too neutral so it may have sounded like I was siding on the idea of clutch releasing lol. Anyway, cheers

I know I know, I thought it might seem a little too much like I am completely disagreeing.

I do agree with your principle that it gives you less overall control, and also that it negates engine braking.

It's specifically that you said it could give a faster entry. This is what I disagree with. But I'm in no mood for a forum argument right now


Honestly, ignore me. 👍

 

[ezfaun]

Well on my bike it does. And that's when I crashed