Has anybody else noticed this?

[James2097]

I agree 100% about the AI being waaay too slow sometimes, and then very fast in some races. It really does find certain cars easier/harder to drive. Same with tracks. The Zonda for instance isn't anywhere near fast enough driven by the AI. That car should simply destroy most other road cars in the game. But then you can easily beat a Zonda, NSX, GT40 etc with a 'can't turn for crap' old Dodge Charger? No matter how much I tune that Dodge it should never be able to out-corner a Zonda! (or any modern sports car for that matter..)

 

[j8mie]

Some interesting points there Skant. Let me comment on a couple.

Well, I guess it's clear why you folks think the AI is so easy to beat. Yes, it's extremely easy to win in RL or VR by just punting your opponents off the track from behind. That's why they hand out black flags in RL.

The AI does not try to punt you on purpose. It will slow down to avoid rear ending you as long as you're not driving like a clown.

There is a skill to passing properly. And there is a skill to being passed. Most GT players don't have these skills. They haven't tried to develop them at all. And they think the AI is ramming them on purpose, when they're the ones who are actually at fault. This is the very reason why sanctioned race organizations require race licenses in RL. You have to prove to them that you know how to pass and be passed safely. That's really the point of the license. If you toss an untrained driver out there, he's going to cause a crash every time someone tries to pass him. And he'll think it's their fault, too...

This is an angel I'd never thought about. Maybe the problem is with us, and the way we race. I'll give this some more thought and study my replays a little bit closer. Personnally I avoid slamming into the back of other racers as this takes the fun away from the game, and I feel like I'm just cheating myself. I like a challenge when I'm racing and when I try a 116 a spec point race I'm still not having too many problems, yet if I race a 200 point race, its near impossible. I'm happy to raise my hand and say I'm not the greatest, but there needs to be a better all round challenge. And this should come from better AI cars, that keep up with you and make "real" mistakes during a race. I want to see oppenents out braking themselves, and pushing me into a mistake that costs me a race win.

PD must sort out the Ai if damage is to be included in GT5. I fear it will not, and we'll get up with a better looking GT4 with more cars and tracks. Sry.

...Me thinks the developers at PD just haven't had much exposure to cars outside of Japan. Which shouldn't be at all surprising...

This I fear is very true. I've said this before in another thread, but had the game been made in Europe or the States, there would have been a better balance of cars. At the moment, it feels like Nissan sponsored the making of this game. I didn't know there were that many Skylines

 

[slimer90210]

That when the 'killer car' in a championship starts anywhere but first, it's almost a non-threat? Likewise, if they get to first they often just running away? Examples:

American Championship - The first race at Seattle, I started last and the Panoz opened up about a 5 second lead on the first lap, but I was able to catch him. The third race (at New York) I drove a horrible race and the Panoz ended up passing me on the third lap and opened up like a 15 second lead before the end.

Classic Car Cup - the 427 Cobra would just run away from me (I lost by 20+ seconds on the Ring) but if I started on the pole, I could win by around 7-8 seconds each time.

Blackpool Racers - I could waste this race with my Griffith, Speed 12 included, as long as he didn't get to first. If he started fourth or fifth it was no faster than any of the other cars.

And I though i was just loosing my mind....

 

[evil gremlin]

yea its because the AI is so insanely stupid that the fast car just runs right into the slower ones so it slows down, this happens in b-spec too like instead of over taking they run right into the other cars its pitiful 👎

 

[CurlyDE]

watching the dream car chamionship at infineon in the b-spec race monitor is hilarious - the little "off the track" indicators for all the cars are lighting up like fireworks!

Are the "off the track" indicators located at the bottome of the screen or in the middle section next to the car? A friend of mine seems to think that the orange - red arrows that show up between the cars (on the bottom of the screen) are the "off the track" indicators. I always thought it was the little car with the wavy lines that is near the middle of the screen.

Any comments on which one is correct?

 

[oceantech]

Are the "off the track" indicators located at the bottome of the screen or in the middle section next to the car? A friend of mine seems to think that the orange - red arrows that show up between the cars (on the bottom of the screen) are the "off the track" indicators. I always thought it was the little car with the wavy lines that is near the middle of the screen.

Any comments on which one is correct?

You are correct - its in the middle section next to the cars. The red arrows or "candy corn" symbols have been explained elsewhere as indicating that the car behind is catching up to the car in front of it i.e; its split time was faster than the one in front. This of course is useful if you're B-spec'ing and want to know if your lead will be safe if you reduce your speed to "3" or even "2".

 

[jake11375]

I agree with some of the comments above about the Zonda being slower than its real life counterpart. This is true as with the Merc Mclaren as well. And I also agree with Skant to some extent on the driving habits of GT players. Whenever I want a clean replay with no crashes, no grass crossing, no wall-riding, no AI corner slingshots, the game does prove more challenging. But the GT series is still greatly lacking in providing a fulfilling AI challenge. That's why I somewhat liked the 5 second penalty idea because it forces cleaner races. But still the AI is not up to par. It's not horrible by far if you play your cards right. I'll put it this way, if you really want a challenge, you can make one....

 

[D_Logan]

I don't know. Everyone's complaining about the AI. Certainly some improvements can be made, but you can't have the AI running a perfect line at the maximum speed possible in the same car as you when you're starting well behind them. You would NEVER catch them.

 

[AJP400]

I don't know. Everyone's complaining about the AI. Certainly some improvements can be made, but you can't have the AI running a perfect line at the maximum speed possible in the same car as you when you're starting well behind them. You would NEVER catch them.

Yes, true, but you're missing the point......

For example, if you brake late and get the inside line on a corner, the AI will just drive into you and in alot of cases put you off the track. Also, If you are in front and the AI manages to get better drive out of the corner, they often just drive into your rear bumper, rather than pull out and overtake. This is especially apparent in B-Spec mode, where your AI controlled driver struggles to overtake, even if you use the (slightly useless) 'overtake' function.

It's not all about the perfect racing line. If every car in every race (whether it be GT4 or real life) stuck to the line, then the car starting in first would finish first, the car in second in second, and so on. You get my point. The whole thing about motor racing is the difference in the way you approach a corner - making a real difference to how you can exit the corner.

Example:

A car 20 yards in front of another is on a long straight, approaching a right hand bend. In ideal conditions (with no rival behind him trying to get his place) the driver would stay far left under braking, increasing the radius of the turn he makes around the corner and through the apex. The larger the radius, the less lateral g-force, the less energy loss through centrifugal force, the more speed he keeps in the bend, the better drive he gets out of the corner, thus making a higher speed on the next straight. With me?......

However, with a rival just a few yards behind, it is possible (and legal) for the challenging car to brake a fraction later, on a line that is inside the leader, ie. between him and the apex. The rival car effectively blocks the leader's line around the corner, literally putting the rival in front of the (former) leader. The slight disadvantage is that the new leader cannot get the 'ideal' line out of the corner, and therefore cannot hit the highest potential speed on the forthcoming straight. But that means nothing, as he has got in front of the (has-been) leader, and can subtly block any attempt for the car he has overtaken to do the same to him.

So, therefore the leader would take action to prevent losing his place. Instead of taking a line into the corner that gives him a large radius, he would position his car on much the same line as the rival behind would have to take in order to perform the move described in the paragraph above. Again, there would be a slight disadvantage in the fact that he cannot get an 'ideal' line in and out of the corner. But he would keep his place and fend off any chance of a late-braking, inside-line exploiting rival taking the lead.

Obviously, the rival could 'read' the leader's actions, and himself take the ideal racing line rather than late-brake for the inside line. If the leader takes a smaller radius into the corner than the rival, then mid-corner things get interesting. Again, you get my point.

That is the absolute BASICS of racing. The real ABC stuff. I obviously won't go into just how far off the mark GT4's AI is in this respect, but Christ......they aren't even close. If it really is the 'Real Driving Simulator' then this needs addressing in the next GT game.

Listen, PD.................L I S T E N ! ! ! ! !

 

[D_Logan]

I completely understand where you're coming from. But, how skilled should they make the A.I.? Obviously there are plenty of people who think the game is too easy. There are also a good share of people frustrated about the game being too hard (I've seen their posts in these forums). I happen to be neither, as I find the game gives me a good challenge, but there isn't any part I've come to that I can't beat w/ some practice. So there lies the bottom line. PD is going to get as many people as they can to buy their game. If they make it so hard that only, say, 10% of it's players can complete most of the game, then they're going to lose many customers. If they make it so easy that over 50% of players find it's too easy for a challenge, again they lose customers. That's where they're going to make their decision, not based on the small percentage that find the game unchallenging. They don't care about you, they're in it for the $$$.
-- But that's just me,maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it's a horrible tragedy.

 

[GrandpaLonghair]

Must say I absolutely LOVE ramming AI opponents off the track. Especially if it isn`t necessary to win.

 

[Mt. Lynx]

I might ad that AI suck on drafting too. Example: dreamcar championship/la sarthe in a viper racecar (No tuneups). Up against the zonda racecar, wich is far faster, and should corner better. But surprisingly I´m faster on the infield, but the AI catches up on the long straight, and I´m happy to let him pass, so I can slipstream him. Done and done, Ive passed him. Now, I want AI to slipstream passed me, so I can slipstream passed him again, before the righthand corner at the end of the straight, `cos if I don´t have a certain lead, he will bump me under braking, since the zonda has better brakes than the viper. Sadly, AI don´t pass me, instead he acts like a jojo behind me, and simply will not pass me, even I give him lots of space. Why? His car is better than mine, so why don´t AI use that advantage?

Also I´ve figured out that A-spec points are probably the complete AI startingfields power/weight ratio against yours.

 

[sideslider]

Have you considered the possibility that it is your emotional state making a lot of these differences, not the AI?

You drive differently when you're chasing and getting close. You go into the turns hotter. You think you can match and beat any move the lead car makes. And it makes you slower.

As soon as the competition is behind you, you start driving your line, not his. And suddenly you're flying.

Pyschology has a big impact on racing.

- Skant

THATS ME!!!!
but i do agree with the once you're in the lead youre gone ....come on ai if i can push it so can you!!!!

maybe ai stands for ape inteligence.....well i guess even an ape is smart enough to avoid raming someone at 200 mph

 

[ktaylor57]

I do agree with the psychology part, however I don't think it is the entire reason for this. Psychology is definitely to blame for those 3 second gaps turning into 20 second gaps by the end of the lap (as thus happened at El Capitan in that same American championship).

I do remember the Panoz, Cobra, and Speed 12 just driving away from me on straightaways once they passed me and getting at least a 2 second lead, even though when I was in front they were consistently 2-5 seconds behind.

I will have to look into this a bit more.

 

[sideslider]

Must say I absolutely LOVE ramming AI opponents off the track. Especially if it isn`t necessary to win.

you're a sick and twisted person.....you probally also enjoy making your b-spec driver miss pits on red tires and putting his speed on push.....booohahaha

 

[ktaylor57]

I'll be perfectly honest - there is something humorous about nailing a AI car going 140 into a hairpin and watching him FLY off into the sand.

Of course, I only do this when I am extremely bored and running a race in Arcade/Family Cup, or when an AI car really annoys me.

 

[DemonSeed]

That's not a stock Glanza. Now, in the family cups and arcade mode, it uses the difficulty level to select opponent cars. The formula seems to be each difficulty point equals 20 A-spec points. So difficulty 5 should be trying for a 100 A-spec point race.

The thing is... all the cars it chooses from are stock and running on the same tires you are. And if you're selecting one of the fastest cars in the game or using a maxed out modified car, it can easily not have any cars to pit against you that can provide the requested level of challenge. That's why you can set higher and higher difficulty in that case, and the races don't actually get any harder. It's not a true difficulty 7 unless it says circa 140 A-spec points at the start of the race. If you select 7, and it says 1 A-spec point... well... sorry, but it has no cars that can challenge your car.

Of course it is not stock [nor the fastest in the game, no matter what you put into it]. It is tuned to the best of my abilities. And there is no chance of winning without nos, because even with as stupid AI as it is, glanza won't hold against those cars. well, maybe it will if some better driver than me tries, as i said, i consider myself below average in driving skills. maximum a-spec points i won racing glanza against AI was 163. try it yourself and you will see, it is far too easy. AI doesn't have a clue about racing. remember your b-spec driver - never drives at max speed, brakes too late and all that stuff. it is AI after all, and when you watch your b-spec on the track you can think that it is only A - artificial, 'cos I - intelligence is missing [stage 4 weight reduction? yo AI, leave the brain in the bucket over there, 1.5 kg less ].

note: i didnt know about 20 a-spec points per 1 diff. rule but it seems quite right. i got 163 on diff 8, and was getting 101 to 111 on 5 if remember correctly. good to know, thanks.

Well, I guess it's clear why you folks think the AI is so easy to beat. Yes, it's extremely easy to win in RL or VR by just punting your opponents off the track from behind. That's why they hand out black flags in RL.

The AI does not try to punt you on purpose. It will slow down to avoid rear ending you as long as you're not driving like a clown.

There is a skill to passing properly. And there is a skill to being passed. Most GT players don't have these skills. They haven't tried to develop them at all. And they think the AI is ramming them on purpose, when they're the ones who are actually at fault. This is the very reason why sanctioned race organizations require race licenses in RL. You have to prove to them that you know how to pass and be passed safely. That's really the point of the license. If you toss an untrained driver out there, he's going to cause a crash every time someone tries to pass him. And he'll think it's their fault, too.

Ok, did you watch AI cars and their passing and overtaking techniques? They put you, other AI cars and themselves off the track all the time. It doesn't really matter how you drive, if you are close to them you will get hit, most of the time they do not slow down or try to avoid you. they just park in your ass. b-spec driver anyone - for important races you need to run qualifier for AI to start from pole position, so it doesnt have to overtake, because it won't, even in the easiest situations. and as for my glanza races, you do not want to hit other cars, you will lose too much speed and they will accelerate much faster - so no, i don't use this to win races, i just mentioned it as an example of my theory, that AI drivers are kind of pre-programmed to run the race, they do not improvise. so it is not really AI, just some kind of scripted racing line that AI cars seem to follow.


anyway, i love the game and i will be playing it for a long time. i miss the proper AI, the one that would actually make things interesting on the track but i play with my friends a lot, and thats quite interesting. i think i am firmly in the camp of 'there is no AI in gt4', thats all. and i hope pd will address this in future release

 

[drfterxl]

i was doing the gt all stars: last corner, last lap of the autumn ring track, sauber c9 just rams me as i make the turn, pushing me into the sand. then i see him pull away, beating me.

but yea i quite agree with what was orginally said, if you dont catch the leader after say two laps, it will become quite impossible

 

[Alfaholic]

I can accept the argument that erratic driving could place an AI driver in a position where he cannot avoid driving into me, except that if it was inconsistent driving making them drive into me so often, it does not show in my lap times, which are consistent when I am not being punted face first into a tyre wall. Also, being driven into by AI drivers is not a problem I have in all driving games, just in GT4, where I get rear ended or side swiped whenever possible. In GT4 this usually just results in a seriously missed apex, but in a game with a damage model, it would make it unplayable. Which makes the lack of car damage in GT4 rather more significant.

Also, I could accept the argument that says that AI drivers have superb reactions and control which makes them seem less vulnerable to being rammed than a human. Certainly, they seem to have excellent throttle control on worn tyres, and accurate steering control when recovering an oversteering car.

What I can't accept is both these arguments being used to describe the same AI. How can an AI driver, who never gets surprised, has god-like car control and superman reactions find me so hard to avoid when I brake 5 metres earlier than usual, or when I am a nose but not a full car ahead, on the racing line, on a straight? The opposite should be true. The only answer is that they could avoid me easily if they wanted to, but they don't try. i.e. the AI is a pain in the butt.

 

[Skant]

Well, with the difficulty level set to where the AI cars are difficult to beat in my car... I am able to get around them and complete the race without ever being brushed, much less hit. I finish the race in 1st without having made contact with anything.

That takes a lot of technique and practice in either VR or RL. As I mentioned, that's why sanctioning organizations require race licenses. It's not to make sure you're fast. It's to make sure you know how to race in close proximity with other race cars without causing a wreck.

Someone described braking later on the inside line from yards behind the lead car... and that this shouldn't turn into a collision because the AI should avoid the contact. Well... this type of 'pass' is called the 'dive bomb' in RL. And it very often does turn into a wreck. It's very high risk because it tends to put the lead car into a position where it can not avoid the crash no matter what it does.

The text book version of the late braking pass includes the idea of 'presenting' your car _before_ the corner. That is, you must be at least half way up the side of the lead car and on the inside before reaching the braking point for the turn. _Then_ you go for the late braking and all that. If you're further back than that, then the lead car is well within its rights to 'slam the door' on the pass.

I have found that the AI really does respond to this. If you present your car, it will give you room. If you don't, the door is slammed... hard.


You see. You guys are hard core GT4 players, and most of you don't know how this stuff works. It's not taught in the game. And it's difficult to do even when you know how to do it. Without a doubt, this is a major factor in why GT has never had simulated damage. Because if PD did it, they would want to make it realistic and not arcade-like (like it is in _every_ game out there that has it). And too many players are already whining that the game is too hard. With realistic damage, hardly anyone would be able to finish even a single race. Because they don't know how to drive well... much less how to make a safe pass or to be passed safely. Only a tiny percentage of their players would end up enjoying such a feature even though many more think they would. Even most of the membership of these forums couldn't do it (though many could learn).

The 5 second penalty is an attempt to introduce something a little like real damage... and listen to all the horrible whining about it all over the forums. But at the same time, you guys whine that you want full simulated damage? You go for dive bomb passes and attempt to pass _anywhere_ on the course that you meet an AI car regardless of how dangerous the move is... and then complain that 'the AI car hit you'.

When you say that PD would have to make serious improvements to the AI drivers in order to make realistic damage possible, what you really mean is that PD would have to make the AI drivers surrender the line to the player and back off and give them a ton of space whenever a player car was anywhere nearby. Because who knows what he might do.


Now... I'm not saying the AI is perfect. It certainly has its faults. But it's not actually bad. It is very aggressive... more aggressive than it was in GT3. It will give you racing room, but not much. It acts much like a borderline over-aggressive human opponent. Which I personally appreciate... because you will encounter such opponents if you race in RL, and I like the chance to practice passing techniques against such an opponent without having to pay for new fenders or suspension parts at the end of the race.

If you can get around the AI cars without touching them, then you are well on your way to being able to handle passing in RL.


Btw... the AI is as challenging as you want it to be. If you win too easily, try it in a slower car. There's no reason to be hung up on the idea that the AI should be able to beat you in an identical car. Just use a slower car than his. It will make you feel better about yourself anyway. They really give you a lot of room to select your own level of difficulty.

- Skant

PS: Someone commented that a Dodge Charger should never be able to out corner a stock Zonda no matter how tuned it is. Don't be so sure of that. A lot of people underestimate what those old muscle cars were capable of (and overestimate what modern cars are capable of). Besides, any car can be made fast with enough alteration.

 

[sideslider]

Well, with the difficulty level set to where the AI cars are difficult to beat in my car... I am able to get around them and complete the race without ever being brushed, much less hit. I finish the race in 1st without having made contact with anything.

That takes a lot of technique and practice in either VR or RL. As I mentioned, that's why sanctioning organizations require race licenses. It's not to make sure you're fast. It's to make sure you know how to race in close proximity with other race cars without causing a wreck.

Someone described braking later on the inside line from yards behind the lead car... and that this shouldn't turn into a collision because the AI should avoid the contact. Well... this type of 'pass' is called the 'dive bomb' in RL. And it very often does turn into a wreck. It's very high risk because it tends to put the lead car into a position where it can not avoid the crash no matter what it does.

The text book version of the late braking pass includes the idea of 'presenting' your car _before_ the corner. That is, you must be at least half way up the side of the lead car and on the inside before reaching the braking point for the turn. _Then_ you go for the late braking and all that. If you're further back than that, then the lead car is well within its rights to 'slam the door' on the pass.

I have found that the AI really does respond to this. If you present your car, it will give you room. If you don't, the door is slammed... hard.


You see. You guys are hard core GT4 players, and most of you don't know how this stuff works. It's not taught in the game. And it's difficult to do even when you know how to do it. Without a doubt, this is a major factor in why GT has never had simulated damage. Because if PD did it, they would want to make it realistic and not arcade-like (like it is in _every_ game out there that has it). And too many players are already whining that the game is too hard. With realistic damage, hardly anyone would be able to finish even a single race. Because they don't know how to drive well... much less how to make a safe pass or to be passed safely. Only a tiny percentage of their players would end up enjoying such a feature even though many more think they would. Even most of the membership of these forums couldn't do it (though many could learn).

The 5 second penalty is an attempt to introduce something a little like real damage... and listen to all the horrible whining about it all over the forums. But at the same time, you guys whine that you want full simulated damage? You go for dive bomb passes and attempt to pass _anywhere_ on the course that you meet an AI car regardless of how dangerous the move is... and then complain that 'the AI car hit you'.

When you say that PD would have to make serious improvements to the AI drivers in order to make realistic damage possible, what you really mean is that PD would have to make the AI drivers surrender the line to the player and back off and give them a ton of space whenever a player car was anywhere nearby. Because who knows what he might do.


Now... I'm not saying the AI is perfect. It certainly has its faults. But it's not actually bad. It is very aggressive... more aggressive than it was in GT3. It will give you racing room, but not much. It acts much like a borderline over-aggressive human opponent. Which I personally appreciate... because you will encounter such opponents if you race in RL, and I like the chance to practice passing techniques against such an opponent without having to pay for new fenders or suspension parts at the end of the race.

If you can get around the AI cars without touching them, then you are well on your way to being able to handle passing in RL.


Btw... the AI is as challenging as you want it to be. If you win too easily, try it in a slower car. There's no reason to be hung up on the idea that the AI should be able to beat you in an identical car. Just use a slower car than his. It will make you feel better about yourself anyway. They really give you a lot of room to select your own level of difficulty.

- Skant

PS: Someone commented that a Dodge Charger should never be able to out corner a stock Zonda no matter how tuned it is. Don't be so sure of that. A lot of people underestimate what those old muscle cars were capable of (and overestimate what modern cars are capable of). Besides, any car can be made fast with enough alteration.

clap! clap! sweet... well said 👍

 

[Impreza P1]

As well said as it is, it doesn't explain why in real life drivers don't always pass smoothly. Often I've seen motorsport events where the drivers come into contact with each other even when they shouldn't.

My other gripe about the AI is that I still think it uses "catch-up" boosts to compensate for it's inheirent weaknesses.

As a side note, I think the Toca Race Driver 2 AI was slightly better, at least it knew when to challenge you and when to yield.

 

[Alfaholic]

If real life drivers and racers drove like the AI on GT4, on road or on track, I would be too dead to be complaining about it. But it can't be compared to RL. It's a computer game. This means that regardless of how accurate the car is modelled, it cannot be realistic. Peripheral vision and motion sensation are all missing. This means it is far more difficult to gain a full awareness of what is happening around you and the accelerative forces acting on the car. Even so, vision directly ahead is excellent, and, unlike many racing formulas, most of the cars raced in GT4 even have brake lights, plus we have already established that the AI has unrealistically quick reactions, so there really is no excuse for being rear ended. Even BTCC drivers from 1991 were not this "agressive". RL racing drivers, like all other drivers (with the exception of one Michael Schumacher) have a natural instinct to avoid collisions. It's nothing to do with the training required to gain a racing license, which involves more wallet exercise than overtaking exercise, it's because collisions in RL damage the car and . If the cars could sustain damage, the AI drivers would never finish a race even if no human was involved. But as I said at the start, comparing GT4 to RL is unfair. Better to compare it to other computer driving sims. Doing so demonstrates that the AI in GT4 is dramatically inferior to driving sims released seven or eight years ago. That much can be demonstrated.