Has Sony/PD thought of looking at iRacing penatly system for ideas?

[Patrocles]

Anyone here signed onto iRacing (I'm patiently praying/hoping/swearing for an invite this month! hehe)?

I've heard good things about the iRacing SR (safety rating). I think it works by a complex formula that increases your SR as you do clean laps, races, time trials, etc. After accumulating a minimum SR you can then join more advanced races. If your SR goes down then you are bumped back down. From what little I've heard about iRacing this system is working very well and everyone races close and clean! If anyone here is using iRacing please give us some more details on this SR. thanks.

If anyone has connections with Sony/PD perhaps they could ask them to take a look at the iRacing SR system for potential ideas to clean up the online racing?
thanks.

 

[unimental]

The iRacing Safety Rating system works quite well, as does the "iRating" system which helps with grouping racers of somewhat equal skill levels in events. I think PD could learn a little from the implementation, but frankly the best way to ensure the cleanest racing possible is to get in with a league where you're held accountable for your actions. I've been a part of multiple seasons of league racing in Forza 2 with mature, clean, skilled drivers which you simply don't find on public servers (for either console or PC gaming).

If anyone's interested in more information regarding iRacing, we've got a thread over in the PC Gaming section.

 

[The-BNA]

Very good idea

 

[Rocket Punch]

iRacing. you can ask Uni about it, he had a bunch of videos on Youtube. I am about to install it too, as I just upgraded my HDD.

To be honest, anything is better than what's in GT5P now. Even TDU had a better penalty system...

 

[Lain]

To answer the title, no PD hasn't looked at iRacing. And Sony doesn't have much of a say regarding penalties, so they probably aren't either.

The system sounds pretty good though!

 

[alexpez]

Note that iracing is a subscription service, with a clearly defined set of rules and procedures - so much so that it defines itself as an online racing service, not just a racing simulation.

Ive been a member over there since they opened the doors, and beta tested prior to that for 3 or 4 years (the system has been tested to death!), and the model they are using does appear to be working. The races are clean, contact is avoided.

pez

 

[Dobo]

Sounds great...

 

[RedOak]

The iRacing Safety Rating system works quite well, as does the "iRating" system which helps with grouping racers of somewhat equal skill levels in events. I think PD could learn a little from the implementation, but frankly the best way to ensure the cleanest racing possible is to get in with a league where you're held accountable for your actions. I've been a part of multiple seasons of league racing in Forza 2 with mature, clean, skilled drivers which you simply don't find on public servers (for either console or PC gaming).

That's just it tho, the iracing.com idea is brilliant because it transform the regular community in a tigh knit of players who are forced to respect one another or face the consequences. Instead of going out of your way to find intelligent and serious racers... you can simply go by rating so you are not stuck with a lot of 20 racers "to have fun".

Just imagine finding yourself in a 4.0 rating group (0 to 5), which is really good... you could search for races with only 3.5 to 4.0 racers... almost guarantying good clean fun for the whole evening... plus it raise your rating if you keep racing good...

and lets put money value in there... the higher your rating, the bigger the multiplier of money you get...

that system is brilliant.

 

[unimental]

Here's something I just posted over in the Forza 2 forums, as this same discussion re: the iRacing Safety Rating system is cropping up:

"Perhaps there is something about the whole licensing system and it's connection to Safety Rating (SR) which could be implemented in upcoming sims, even on consoles. And, since Forza 2 already punishes you for contact or off-roading by assessing a time penalty to your lap, a base for a "safery system" already exists.

Here's how it could work:

Assign an extra rating to online drivers in ranked matches which goes up or down based on the total percentage of penalty time incurred to the full length of the race. Let's say everyone starts at zero (like the skill based ranks) and, should you meet a certain threshold (say, less than one second penalty per minute) your safety score goes up. Incur over another threshold (perhaps five seconds penalty per minute) and your safety score goes down. This score would be displayed along with your skill rating in ranked lobbies, giving others in the room somewhat of an idea of what type of driver you may be. High skill rating but a zero safety score? Perhaps this person likes to cut corners and/or punt a lot. Lobbies could be set by the host to only be available to players with a certain minimum score.

Yes, the system could be worked by running clean laps by yourself or with a friend (maybe make it so that races must have 2+ participants to count towards your rating to avoid the first scenario), but the overall additional information would in most cases be good for everyone, and would help players think twice about cutting corners (Road Atlanta and Sebring say hello!) or driving agressively. Not perfect, but a huge bonus over having nothing."

For those that don't have knowledge of Forza 2 and how "time penalties" work, essentially there's an amount tacked on to your laptime for contact or off-roading. You aren't slowed by this penalty, but it serves to keep hot-lap leaderboards clean (no wall-riding or corner cutting). I'm sure PD could do something similar, if even in the background and not visible to the player. Otherwise, once lobbies and a skill ranking are implemented in GT5 you can replace "Forza" references in the portion above with "GT5".

Nobody is going to reproduce the extent of the iRacing system on a console, but I do stress that there could be a scaled down "safety system" put in place which would act as a reputational indicator to others when racing online.

The big difference is that, while Turn 10 is actively seeking input from the community on the next iteration of Forza, Kaz himself has said he doesn't pay attention to what other games/platforms are doing and there's no way for us to directly discuss potential enhancements with PD.

 

[daan]

iRacing is a completely different kettle of fish to other sims/games. You need to pay to use iRacing constantly, whereas other sims like GTL/GTR2/rFactor are essentially free to use (after the initial payment to buy it, which iRacing has too). Therefore, as iRacing users have more at stake, and will tend to be more serious about their sim racing in the first place, it will have a higher proportion of fair/clean drivers than the other sims anyway.

Another point is that any automated penalty system will not work that well. It will not be able to decide if there was intent to cut the track, or intent to push the other driver off, and it will end up punishing a driver for mistakes.

To answer the title, no PD hasn't looked at iRacing.

Fact? or made up? You don't have a clue what PD have, or have not, done with regard to this.

 

[RedOak]

That's a cool idea, if perhaps a bit too complicated for no reason.

Instead of devising two distinctive ratings, just issue penalities for every offenses.

Example:
Cutting corner: -.01 per meter cut.
Light touch: (less then 20 pounds pressure) -.05
medium touch: (less then 40 pounds pressure -.1
Heavy touch: (more then 40 pounds pressure) -.5

and so on... and the opposite is possible:
Complete 1 clean lap (not touching cars or obstacles): + .05
Complete 3 consecutive clean laps: +.1

and so on...

Perhaps even bonuses for consistency and other influences to differentiate good drivers...

 

[unimental]

Another point is that any automated penalty system will not work that well. It will not be able to decide if there was intent to cut the track, or intent to push the other driver off, and it will end up punishing a driver for mistakes.

It doesn't have to work perfectly or even anywhere close to the level at which iRacing's system operates, but only needs to operate well enough over a period of time to help provide some level of "racing rep" to go along with a skill ranking (as Forza 2 already has implemented, and isn't by any means perfect).

 

[RedOak]

iRacing is a completely different kettle of fish to other sims/games. You need to pay to use iRacing constantly, whereas other sims like GTL/GTR2/rFactor are essentially free to use (after the initial payment to buy it, which iRacing has too). Therefore, as iRacing users have more at stake, and will tend to be more serious about their sim racing in the first place, it will have a higher proportion of fair/clean drivers than the other sims anyway.

I don't/can't agree with that daan, because any MMORPG work the same way (in essence) and you have your fair share of gankers and whatnot. The fact of the matter is, paying money for a montly fee doesn't equal better players... it just means more players willing to pay for a product. (that comment is based off game focus testing from gamasutra).

And the persistence iracing.com offers can easily be done by PD. they already support leaderboards which is persistent.

Another point is that any automated penalty system will not work that well. It will not be able to decide if there was intent to cut the track, or intent to push the other driver off, and it will end up punishing a driver for mistakes.

Again i'm not sure i can agree. Although i've always said, and will always believe that any game that has the player "depend" on an NPC/AI will always fail. However, a good penality system is not impossible. Its all in the approach and codework.

For example (whcih GT5p does poorly)... if you get punted, then forcebly punt the car in front of you, most often then not, you get a penality. However, if the code would alocate for this instance, only the original punter would get a penality... and more over, if could be made so that any subsequent "punts" that occured as a result of the original punt is added the originator's penality rating. Unfortunately, this is not how PD is doing it.

another example of poor coding regarding penality, which could be avoided: Ramming. I often get punted in a corner, sending me spinning out of control ('cause we're in a corner and i'm turning...)... but i inadvertently "ram" a car passing by me... because of the speed increase due to the original punt, it now counts as a ram... and i get the penality for "ramming" the next car while i'm not even facing the right way... again, all this because the penality system doesn't take count of the "ripple effect" i'm stuck in the middle of.

Ultimately, a good penality system is achieveble, it just needs a good game designer behind it... which unfortunately, Gran Turismo never really had (from day one).

edit: i'd like to add a small thing too... since i'm on a roll here *wink*... why the hell does PD force the penalities to be instantenous for the players? why not just substract time from the final time table like in Forza2?... that will help the clean racers and punish the bad ones... lets say a guy (as it so happens) that keeps ramming and punting his way to the top... finishes first, but caused so much havoc that he's got a 15 seconds penality from his final score.. so he did finish first in line, but really finished 8th due to bad sportsmanship... that allows everyone to go on by their business, makes less ghosts to worry about and lets clean racers keep to their time tables and consistency for the win... I do that a lot in Forza2 and it works really well...

 

[MustangSVT]

Another point is that any automated penalty system will not work that well. It will not be able to decide if there was intent to cut the track, or intent to push the other driver off, and it will end up punishing a driver for mistakes.

That's the whole point. You do get punished for making mistakes. If you make mistakes in real life at the track (be it lapping, autocross, very competitive racing), you get punished, possibly very severely for it. If you make contact with someone or run off track by your own mistake in iRacing, then you get deducted points, and that's the whole point. To try and make you feel like you're on the real race track where mistakes like running off track and running into someone by "mistake" can cost you dearly. That's why the system in iRacing works so well, it forces people to drive cleanly and not beyond their abilities as they would in most other racing games. The only places where I am forced to do the same is when participating in league racing in Forza 2 and also rFactor or LFS. Since you know the people from some forum, you have a reputation that you have to uphold. So before trying to pass someone in that one corner, you will think twice about the consequences before doing it.

 

[unimental]

I don't/can't agree with that daan, because any MMORPG work the same way (in essence) and you have your fair share of gankers and whatnot. The fact of the matter is, paying money for a montly fee doesn't equal better players... it just means more players willing to pay for a product. (that comment is based off game focus testing from gamasutra).

iRacing really isn't anything like an MMORPG, and there's been seriously few instances of unsportsmanlike conduct. You have to be a safe driver in order to advance, and there is a formal protest system to deal with outright wrecking. Consequences for actions.

And the persistence iracing.com offers can easily be done by PD. they already support leaderboards which is persistent.

Keep in mind that iRacing has spent 5+ years in development at a cost of over $18 million... this isn't an easy thing to do, nor will (or should) PD be able to replicate it. There's much more to persistence than just leaderboards.

 

[RedOak]

iRacing really isn't anything like an MMORPG, and there's been seriously few instances of unsportsmanlike conduct. You have to be a safe driver in order to advance, and there is a formal protest system to deal with outright wrecking.

Don't take my works literally... what i mean by MMO is its persistent and players pay for the service montly... i'm not saying cars cast spells and you can buy goodyear tires +5 to grip. you also made my point exactly by saying "few instances of unsportsmanlike conduct"... there have been some and they were punished... just like in a MMO... there are gankers and they are dealt with through DMs or a penality rating system. Its essentially the same idea.

Keep in mind that iRacing has spent 5+ years in development at a cost of over $18 million... this isn't an easy thing to do, nor will (or should) PD be able to replicate it. There's much more to persistence than just leaderboards.

I don't think they spent 5 years and 18million dollars on the penality system mate... that's a good timeline/cost for a full game comparable to a MMO... which iracing.com really is. Its a persistent world where gamers play as a racing driver and can evolve in levels/ranks to battle against other players of similar levels/ranks (pvp...?).

As for the leaderboard, the example here is a game that's willing to use a leaderboard as persistence, needs to pay for it, regardless of if players pay for the service (monthly) or not. Having a rating system is based on the same "server" philosophy... so the company needs to have a server that keeps track of ratings and assigns it to players as they play online. Its the same kind of system, hence the persistency and leaderboard examples.

 

[BonzoHarry]

Exactly, the punishment system for contact should be done off force. The game is obviously able to calculate this and from that you could easily determine if there was intent or ignornance. Either way you should be punished the same though.

For instance, you might turn into a corner not knowing there's a guy on your inside or you might turn into a corner knowing his on the inside yet still refusing to give up your line. Think braking for the chicane at suzuka. Whatever the case you're going to hit him hard and you should be punished as such.

 

[unimental]

Don't take my works literally... what i mean by MMO is its persistent and players pay for the service montly... i'm not saying cars cast spells and you can buy goodyear tires +5 to grip. you also made my point exactly by saying "few instances of unsportsmanlike conduct"... there have been some and they were punished... just like in a MMO... there are gankers and they are dealt with through DMs or a penality rating system. Its essentially the same idea.

Gotcha... but I still think the population is cleaner and more courteous than other sims' public server options off the get-go because of the overall system they've put in place and that players are more like-minded given that sim racing is much more of a niche area of PC gaming than what is seen in MMOs (which would lead to more folks being "less serious" about playing, and more likely to cause issues).

I don't think they spent 5 years and 18million dollars on the penality system mate... that's a good timeline/cost for a full game comparable to a MMO... which iracing.com really is. Its a persistent world where gamers play as a racing driver and can evolve in levels/ranks to battle against other players of similar levels/ranks (pvp...?).

As for the leaderboard, the example here is a game that's willing to use a leaderboard as persistence, needs to pay for it, regardless of if players pay for the service (monthly) or not. Having a rating system is based on the same "server" philosophy... so the company needs to have a server that keeps track of ratings and assigns it to players as they play online. Its the same kind of system, hence the persistency and leaderboard examples.

I'm not saying that the Safety Rating system took up all that development time/money, but what kind of effort went into the overall package . I've already suggested above that PD could, in theory, provide something along the lines of a safety score for all players which would be linked to your online ID. It would be an informational score which other drivers could use to sort out the bad seeds from their open lobbies, or identify potentially poor drivers in open lobbies they join. It just wouldn't have the depth of involvement with progression and licensing like it does in iRacing.

 

[daan]

I don't/can't agree with that daan, because any MMORPG work the same way (in essence) and you have your fair share of gankers and whatnot. The fact of the matter is, paying money for a montly fee doesn't equal better players... it just means more players willing to pay for a product. (that comment is based off game focus testing from gamasutra).

Any other sim is going to get kids (of all ages) larking about due to ease of access. iRacing probably won't have that due to the financial commitment.

Again i'm not sure i can agree. Although i've always said, and will always believe that any game that has the player "depend" on an NPC/AI will always fail. However, a good penality system is not impossible. Its all in the approach and codework.

I admit my opinion there is based on my experience with GTR2/Prologue and neither of them are anywhere near perfect. I haven't tried iRacing so I can't really comment on it's system.

In my last GTR2 league race, I got a cut warning when I went over the bus stop chicane. I had someone gaining on me and coming up the inside, so I was staying wide and giving him room. He realised that he wasn't going to make it, and pulled back. I was too late in realising this, and was too late turning in, and had to go over the inside of the chicane, and received a cut warning. I didn't keep or gain a position due to missing the chicane so, in the real world, I believe nothing more would have come of that.

http://www.davidanderson.org.uk/files/GTR2/NG_League8_10_Spa.wmv at 2 mins 50 seconds

Would iRacing's system have done anything about that?

 

[unimental]

Any other sim is going to get kids (of all ages) larking about due to ease of access. iRacing probably won't have that due to the financial commitment.


I admit my opinion there is based on my experience with GTR2/Prologue and neither of them are anywhere near perfect. I haven't tried iRacing so I can't really comment on it's system.

In my last GTR2 league race, I got a cut warning when I went over the bus stop chicane. I had someone gaining on me and coming up the inside, so I was staying wide and giving him room. He realised that he wasn't going to make it, and pulled back. I was too late in realising this, and was too late turning in, and had to go over the inside of the chicane, and received a cut warning. I didn't keep or gain a position due to missing the chicane so, in the real world, I believe nothing more would have come of that.

http://www.davidanderson.org.uk/files/GTR2/NG_League8_10_Spa.wmv at 2 mins 50 seconds

Would iRacing's system have done anything about that?

Can't watch the video now, but I think I understand the scenario. The result of a course cut in iRacing is a warning (furled black flag) for which you must slow down for to erase any potential advantage gained by the cut (jumping the Laguna corkscrew is a frequent example). The furled flag is then removed along with the warning once you adhere to it. Keep on truckin'? Black flag, with penalty time in the pits.

 

[Patrik]

Sounds nice, but I think private rooms will be just fine.

 

[NLxAROSA]

Sounds nice, but I think private rooms will be just fine.

Yes, that gives us the freedom to race with whatever rules we want to. Even if there are people that like to play bumpercars on GT5.

 

[RedOak]

http://www.davidanderson.org.uk/files/GTR2/NG_League8_10_Spa.wmv at 2 mins 50 seconds

Would iRacing's system have done anything about that?

Funny enough a situation, as i saw the link and watched the video before reading your post all the way through... and my first reaction was calling a penalty on your cut. Which is exactly what any games could've done. And although you make a valid explanation of what happened, from an observer (line judge, whatever), that seriously look[ed] like you were deliberately cutting the track. So to answer your question, and taking into account a game wouldn't give you the time to explain yourself 2 hours after the race, no, no system would catch that... but then, if you allow anything of the sort, it would take about 5 minutes before every forums on the internet knew about it and everyone would be trying that "hack"/"exploit". Besides, that situation appends what? 1 in 200 races? more? However, if that guy behind you would've punt you just before, i believe your move would've been justifiable.

Game mechanics have to be made taking into account that players are guilty, and although that's part of the problem, there is no reason why there couldn't be better code incorporated to better judge recurring situations (unlike yours).

Anyways that's my opinion.

 

[MasterFocus]

remember that Gran Turismo is not a racing sim but instead a driving sim
and I do remeber that Kaz said one time in an article that I cant remember where I read, that he wanted Gran Turismo to be a game that a whole familly could enjoy playing, not just the hardcore player that live in your city, so I guess having best of both world isnt that easy

 

[NLxAROSA]

Kaz said one time in an article that I cant remember where I read, that he wanted Gran Turismo to be a game that a whole familly could enjoy playing, not just the hardcore player that live in your city, so I guess having best of both world isnt that easy

Well, that's what STD physics are for right?

 

[P3nT4gR4m]

I think you nailed the problem right there NLxAROSA - I feel like PD are trying to cater to the arcade freak who, although not being serious about driving, will get fed up with the game if they cant make it to PRO(read '1337') mode. So they've dumbed down PRO mode to help these guys feel good about themselves.

What might be cool is if they regraded the modes 3 ways - Beginner, Normal, and Master, with beginner and Master being the exact same thing and 'normal' being the proper, no hold barred, simulation mode.

That way the beginners have a mode, the casual arcade freak gets the ego boost and we get left alone with a full simulation.

 

[Timppaq]

What might be cool is if they regraded the modes 3 ways - Beginner, Normal, and Master, with beginner and Master being the exact same thing and 'normal' being the proper, no hold barred, simulation mode.

That way the beginners have a mode, the casual arcade freak gets the ego boost and we get left alone with a full simulation.

Best idea of all time!!! 👍




(I mean it!)