HD TV vs. Projector

  • Thread starter Thread starter fideles1986
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fideles1986
sounds awesome, but i thought u can't get 1080p through component only 1080i?
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My friend uses D-sub(analog) to get 1080p so i dont think its any harder with component.

I guess its all about TV hardware to support it?
With analog connectors you might lose some quality with long cables.
 
This is correct, and yes component cable can transmit 1080p signals. The problem is that almost no displays accept 1080p via component, and in fact most displays, even 1920x1080 displays do not accept a 1080p signal via any input, and instead are limited to 1080i signals which the display either deinterlaces the signal to make it a proper 1080p signal for display, or it scales each 1920x540 1080i field to 1920x1080, and then displays it progressively. The later is the worst possible case scenario, but unfortunately quite common.

The good news is that this is changing, and more displays are being released that do accept 1080p signals, and will also properly deinterlace 1080i signals... but there are still 1920x1080 displays that do not, so be sure to research the actual capabilities of any display you might be considering purchasing in the future.
 
found answer to my question, sry for repost.

so this tv LC46D92U has 1920X1080 pixels . wow thats amazing!
 
fideles1986
this is probably a ridiculous question, but are any or going to be any TV's with a native res of 1920X1080? so every pixel on screen can be filled by each individual pixel from the source.
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Actually there have been 1920x1080 displays for a long time. The difference now is that there are far more to chose from using different display technology, and at significantly lower prices.

There are dozens of 1920x1080 projectors, RPTVs, DVTVs, and monitors.

My current top choices for different types of 1920x1080 displays based on both performance and price would be:

Code: 
PROJECTOR:	Panasonic AE1000	N/A LCD (~$4,000)
RPTV:		Samsung HL-S6187W	61" DLP (~$2,000)
DVTV:		Sony Bravia KDL46V2500	46" LCD (~$2,500)
 
then how does GT4 upscale to 1080i (component) when the disc is on a DVD? when i burn the video that has 1080 res to a DVD, it will downscale to 480p?


also:
When u have a display that is not 1920X1080 px and you are receiving a signal of that res. do you lose quality or does one pixel in the TV display several pixels from the source?

thanx 👍
 
Resolution does not depend on format of the disc(cd ,dvd ,bluray). So GT4 can be in 1080i format and in dvd.(hardware have to support format used in disc)

-Burning software can have feature to downscale video to 480 to get dvd to work with most dvd-players. Im not sure what or if any dvd-players support 1080i source format?

-Resolution conversion allways loses some quality to both ways. Higher difference in resolution ,more quality lost.

PS: 1080p tvs do upconversions from 1080i and 720p without compromising quality "too much". Converting from sd (480p ,576i) depends much on hardware in tv. To get best picture from non-native resolution sources ,its best to use good AV-receiver to do upconversion.

In two years most of panels sold will be 1080p(prediction from htguys.com podcast)
 
fideles1986
then how does GT4 upscale to 1080i (component) when the disc is on a DVD? when i burn the video that has 1080 res to a DVD, it will downscale to 480p?


also:
When u have a display that is not 1920X1080 px and you are receiving a signal of that res. do you lose quality or does one pixel in the TV display several pixels from the source?

thanx 👍
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The 1080i in GT4 is not coming from the DVD, it's coming from the PS2's graphics engine, and the picture is rendered during gameplay. The DVD is not a video disc, it's a ROM disc, so there's no such thing as video resolution on it (except for the intro and credits movies.)

Your DVD authoring software will limit what it puts on the DVD to standard-resolution MPEG-2. Max 720x480. Sometimes only 360x480 and doubled horizontally. You CANNOT burn a 1080i standard DVD.

As for resolution, the TV will downconvert anything it can't handle, and upconvert standard programming to its native resolution. There will be tradeoffs according to how well it does this. Most of the "bargain" HD TV sets out there are actually only 720, won't do 1080 at all. They'll receive 1080 and convert it, but not display it. Check the fine print on the sets you see as 'HD' at WalMart, for example.
 
Digital-Nitrate
My current top choices for different types of 1920x1080 displays based on both performance and price would be:
Code: 
PROJECTOR:	Panasonic AE1000	N/A LCD (~$4,000)
RPTV:		Samsung HL-S6187W	61" DLP (~$2,000)
DVTV:		[COLOR="Red"][b]Sony Bravia KDL46V2500[/b][/COLOR]	46" LCD (~$2,500)
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WARNING: For Christmas I bought my parents a new TV, the 46" Sony Bravia KDL46V2500 DV-LCD, and after installing it and calibrating it, I noticed severe Mura uniformity artifacts.

There are a few different types of Mura artifacts that can show up on some LCD panels, and in this case it appears to have a combination of two of them, but mostly it appears to be from a manufacturing error where the LCD panel is improperly sealed causing to much pressure on the liquid crystal cells in isolated areas on the panel. The effect of this are noticeable gradient "clouds" of gray that can be easily seen when the display is showing large areas of black. This defect is often referred to as a backlight uniformity artifact.

While this type of artifact is normal for LCD displays, it should not be easily seen by the human eye, and in most cases, requires specialized equipment to even measure it. Even when LCD panels have noticeable Mura artifacts, in most cases they are caught by the manufacturer in quality control and testing, and are discarded.

This was unfortunately not the case with this particular unit! The uniformity was so bad that it created very noticeable gradient "clouds" of gray which became slightly more pronounced the longer the display was left on... which is also normal with LCD, only that even then the effect is rarely ever noticed by the human eye under normal viewing conditions.

Before sending it back for a replacement, I did some more tinkering with the settings, and by adjusting the backlight control to '0' for each video input and then recalibrating the video settings for each input, I was able to remove most of the gradient cloud artifacts, but not entirely.

My parents were not in the least bit concerned, and after my adjustments, unless the image being displayed was pure black, even I found it difficult to notice the artifact. 👍

However, I still wanted to give my parents a defect free display so I returned it for another unit, but it to showed similar gradient cloud artifacts. 👎

This prompted me to make some inquiries with Sony as well as Samsung, who actually manufacturers the 1920x1080 LCD panels used for this and the other Bravia 1080p LCD TVs for Sony, including the XBR line. While both Sony and Samsung admit there is a problem with some of these panels, neither is saying what percentage of units is having this problem, nor have they given me a satisfactory answer as to why these panels slipped through unoticed by quality control.

For the time being, I have decided not to return the 2nd unit, as I have made the necessary adjustments that have for the most part eliminated the Mura artifacts and even before I did that, my parents were very impressed by the quality of the picture, and may have never even noticed the artifacts had I not pointed it out to them.

If you own or are considering purchasing any of the Sony or Samsung 1080p LCD TVs, my recommendation is to immediately check the set to see if it has any gradient cloud artifacts, and if so adjust the backlight control to '0' for each input, and then calibrate the set from there.

Other than this issue, I still highly recommend these sets, as the picture quality is absolutely stunning. 👍
 
fideles1986
while we are talking about res. What kind of res. does a Movie Theater have???
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That is actually a far more complex question than it might appear as resolution from film is very different than resolution from fixed pixel displays like LCD, LCoS, DLP, Plasma, etc.

In general though, in ideal viewing environments and quality prints, 35mm film projectors can display far more detail/resolution than even the best 1920x1080 displays. 70mm film projectors, like those used by IMAX can display about twice as much detail as even 35mm film projectors can.

The reason the question is complex is that images captured on film have no specific resolution, because unlike LCD, LCoS, DLP, Plasma, etc, film has no fixed pixel array... in fact it has no pixels at all... unless of course a digital intermediate is made, which is a common practice these days for easier editing.

Making this issue even more complex is that there are many different things that affect how much detail can be CAPTURED on 35mm film, like precision lenses (or lack there of), properly calibrated high quality cameras, the type of 35mm film used, the lighting available during filming, and the abilities of the cameraman.

One more reason the question of resolution is hard to answer in regards to movie theaters is that for all the different things that affect how much detail can be captured on 35mm film as listed above, similar things also affect how much detail can be DISPLAYED, like precision lenses (or lack there of), properly calibrated high quality projectors, the type of print used, the lighting in the room, the type and size of screen used, and the abilities of the projectionist.

This is why some 35mm films look like the best 70mm films, while others look like something shot on an old handycam. Unfortunately, there are so many different factor that come into play, that it is often difficult to determine how much each effected the detail and quality of the film.

This is one of the many reasons why the film industry is very interested in digital film and projection - despite the fact that currently, 35mm film still can capture more detail than the best digital motion cameras.

Currently, very few major motion pictures are shot digitally, and those that are of course have a fixed pixel array. The most common resolution of industry digital motion cameras used in major motion pictures is 2K (~1920x1080), but there is a growing demand for 4K cameras due to the need for capturing as much detail as what 35mm or even 65/70mm film can.

A far more common practice though is the process of making digital masters of original film material. These masters are mainly used for distribution purposes (DVD, broadcast, download, etc), but the quality of film scanners and digital restoration software has reached a level of quality that make some of these masters excellent archival methods for preserving film. Currently the best quality scans are from specialized 4K resolution film scanners.

While more and more commercial movie theaters are starting to use digital projection, the vast majority of theaters use 35mm film projectors, and even fewer have 70mm projectors.

Now, for commercial theaters that do have 2K digital projectors, then the max resolution those specific projectors can display is ~1920x1080. For commercial theaters that have 4K projectors, like those from Sony and JVC, then the max resolution those specific projectors can display is ~3840x2160.
 
nice, like some say, nothing is perfect. thanx for the info on Theaters. when Plasma sets came out i thought they didn't have any pixels. lol . I thought it was actually some type of radioactive liquid floating around creating the brilliant image. shows how much i know.
 
what kind of video formats does the INSIGNIA NS-DV2G MP3 player support? my grandma gave me hers and she does not have a manual and i looked on the web and couldnt really find anything...
 
fideles1986
what kind of video formats does the INSIGNIA NS-DV2G MP3 player support? my grandma gave me hers and she does not have a manual and i looked on the web and couldnt really find anything...
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It comes from Best Buy, so go see them for a CD, which I'm told has a program to convert video for the device. I'm not sure what this has to do with HDTV or projectors, though. . . . :indiff:
 
Digital-Nitrate
My current top choices for different types of 1920x1080 displays based on both performance and price would be:
Code: 
PROJECTOR:	[COLOR="Red"][B]Panasonic AE1000[/B][/COLOR]	N/A LCD (~$4,000)
RPTV:		Samsung HL-S6187W	61" DLP (~$2,000)
DVTV:		Sony Bravia KDL46V2500	46" LCD (~$2,500)
Click to expand...
After having just seen Epson's upcoming 1080p projector, Powerlite Pro Cinema 1080 (EMP-TW1000), I must revise my earlier recommendation. This could easily end up being the best home cinema projector for the year!

It uses Epson's award winning .74" D6 C2 Fine 1080 Inorganic 3LCD Panels (the same used in the highly regarded Panasonic AE1000 and Mitsubishi HC5000).

It is the first projector to have a HDMI 1.3 chip (Silicon Image VastLane SiI9133), and 12-bit Deep Color for up to 1.07 Billion Colors... by comparison, current 1080p displays are only able to generate 16.7 million color grades. The Epson generates 983 million more colors!

Other noteworthy specs:
  • Epson '1080Perfect' Video Processor (max 1080p/120)
  • AccuCinema Lens (F = 2.0 ~ 3.17, f = 22.5 ~ 47.2mm)
  • OptiCinema Optics
  • Epson E-TORL 170W UHE Lamp (1200 lumens)
  • Epson 'Absolute Black technology' AI Iris
  • 12000:1 Contrast Ratio
  • ISF-certified Calibration
  • 2.1x Zoom Lens
  • Broad Lens Shift
  • 26 dB (Economy Mode)
  • 12.3 lbs
  • 15.9 x 4.8 x 12.2
All this for only an MSRP of $5,000 (expect street prices to be closer to $4,000)
epson-powerlite-pro-cinema-1080-4.jpg
 
I have 42' Plasma screen and tried playing games on projection screen......both great experience but way too different. I prefer the projector cuz of the high quality of gaming.....taking it to next lvl.....unlike watch HDTV......BUT the Plasma/HDTV can be used best at anytime of the day. It all depends on what details you want. Big and small, practical, reiable to anyone I guess.

For single player, go for projection however for multiplayer go HDTV/Plasma (remember these screens are uber sensitive).
 
I have Epson DLP projector. it can display all HDTV modes, even 1080p. I have mine set 9ft from the wall and the image is about 80-90 inches. I can play during the day, as long as the blunds are closed. I display the image right onto the wall, no screen. I went to a friends house to check out his 40" plasma and looked more or less like my projector in a dark room. I dont think ill be switching over to plasma or lcd monitors for a while.
 
Digital-Nitrate
Actually there have been 1920x1080 displays for a long time. The difference now is that there are far more to chose from using different display technology, and at significantly lower prices.

There are dozens of 1920x1080 projectors, RPTVs, DVTVs, and monitors.

My current top choices for different types of 1920x1080 displays based on both performance and price would be:

Code: 
PROJECTOR:	Panasonic AE1000	N/A LCD (~$4,000)
RPTV:		Samsung HL-S6187W	61" DLP (~$2,000)
DVTV:		Sony Bravia KDL46V2500	46" LCD (~$2,500)
Click to expand...

I must say that the GT4 experience, for me, started out with the nanny leaving the game disk at our house for a week. What started out as simply playing "a game" has blossomed into something so challenging, rewarding and exciting for my son and I that we ended up buying the racing cockpit by redlinesims.com and another PS2 just for our racing set-up.

I'm now looking into buying a large monitor (not PC) which will be used only for gaming, not TV viewing. I would appreciate any feedback and recommendations on what type of screen and brand name you have found to be exceptional for gaming purposes only. I'm consider your recommendation on the Samsung D-N, but I realize that recommendation may have been made with the idea of actually viewing TV programms as well. Any ideas for a "gaming only" screen type?

Thanks!

------

So, for gaming purposes only (i.e., no TV viewing) would you all say that a projector gives out the best image quality for the money? I have a GT4/PS racing set-up which includes a racing cockpit from redlinesims (www.redlinesims.com) and am now looking for a large screen to be used only for GT gaming.

Was thinking about the Samsung that D-N recommended and would appreciate any thoughts/ experiences you all may have had.

Thanks!
 
For only gaming i would buy some mid-priced( ~1200 - 2000€) LCD. For that money you are looking 32" -40". I would choose LCD because im in the lcd camp; i have only good experiences with them. Lcd´s are usually considered to be strongest against gaming "abuse",no phosphors to cause burn-in.
In lcd TVs you have two major resolutions to choose from 1366 x 768 and 1920 x 1080.
Under 37" you will be fine with 1366 x 768 ,larger picture brings up more detail of 1920 x 1080. There will be no advantage with 1080p tv ,if source material is not 1920 x 1080(1080p/i)

Think these questions:
-What is source material resolution?
Find out if display supports all input formats you are going to use,dont buy too high resolution unit for fun(if you have pal gt4 dont bother with 1080p monitor,with ntsc you wil be fine)
-How far im sitting;how big you want screen to be?
-How much you will be able to invest?
-Do you want display to be dead silent?
RPTVs and projectors have usually a fan.
 
ERacer
I'm now looking into buying a large monitor (not PC) which will be used only for gaming, not TV viewing. I would appreciate any feedback and recommendations on what type of screen and brand name you have found to be exceptional for gaming purposes only. I'm consider your recommendation on the Samsung D-N, but I realize that recommendation may have been made with the idea of actually viewing TV programms as well. Any ideas for a "gaming only" screen type?
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These days many times there is not much of a difference between a "TV" display and a "monitor" display, other than one having a TV tuner, and the other without. In fact, often manufacturers sell the same unit as both a monitor and a TV with that one difference between them. The popularity of cable and satellite also means many consumers wont even need a TV tuner.

However, in many cases, displays sold as TVs often come with superior video processors, and the quality of the video processor can effect the image quality from all sources (TV, DVD, Games, Camcorder, etc). In general, TV displays will also come with a wider variety and number of inputs then typical monitors.

It is for these reasons you might be better off with a TV then a monitor.

So, for gaming purposes only (i.e., no TV viewing) would you all say that a projector gives out the best image quality for the money? I have a GT4/PS racing set-up which includes a racing cockpit from redlinesims (www.redlinesims.com) and am now looking for a large screen to be used only for GT gaming.
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Projectors can offer the best picture quality when used in a completely light controlled room and with an appropriate screen material. Most projectors, when displayed on large screens, offer the best value per square inch of any other display type.

Direct View displays (plasma, and especially LCD) are great for using in brightly lit rooms, and for off-axis viewing. They also are great for smaller rooms, where their limited depth won't eat up precious space, but they generally cost quite a bit more per square inch then any other display type.

The best bang for the buck is easily RPTVs. Their cabinets are deeper than DVTVs of course, but these days the difference is not all that great, and in some cases even less than a foot more than a DVTV. Yes, you may have to replace the lamp at some point, but these days most lamps are rated to a half life of at least 3,000 hours, some even as much or more than 6,000 hours. So even if you played around 25 hours a week, you wouldn't have to replace the lamp for about five years... which is also why you should never get talked into buying a replacement lamp when you buy a RPTV... unless its really cheap... and you have a safe place to put it where you wont forget over the next five years. :)

As far as RPTV brands, Samsung would be my favorite, and definitely go with DLP over LCD or LCoS. Not only will it offer much better black & contrast levels, but it has much faster response time than LCD, which can be important for some types of games, and it is capable of much sharper images due to its single panel design. The advantage of LCD and LCoS, and other 3-panel designs is often much better color calibration, but TI's latest color wheels and color calibration software are truly remarkable, and should impress even the most color acuity nit-pickers... such as myself. ;)

Hope some of this is helpful, and keep us posted on how your search progresses. I have been thinking about making a strictly gaming HT set-up in the kids gameroom, and when that time comes I'd love to get some input on cockpit designs. 👍
 
Thank you both Raitziger and Digital-Nitrate for your replies. Great info and great points to consider. I think we'll go ahead with the Samsung RPTV. For now, the source material is the PS2. With any eye towards the future and PS3 (and beyond) I'm comfortable that the Samsung RPTV will provide great picture quality from both the PS2 & PS3 sources.
As far as racing cockpits go, I can heartily recommend the Redline Simulations product offering. I like it from both a practical and aesthetic standpoint. It is compatible with most stering wheels and gas/break pads. We use the Logitech DFPro. The platforms to which the stering wheel and foot pads attach are easily adjustable, so both my 10 yr old son and I can adjust them to fit in a snap. The whole things looks really cool and the seating position is comfortably reclined which makes you feel as if you are in a high performance race car (truly, I am a kid at heart). The whole construction is very robust and weighs about 80 lbs fully assembled. It is a bit pricey, but considering the amount of money we all seem to be spending on PS2/3's and HDTV's and sound systems (oh yes) - I think its money well spent for something that gives us so much fun together.
Hey, it's more than a game now - we're a GT family now!
 
A quick update. We ended up with the Samsung RPTV 50" LCD which I have placed directly in front of our racing cockpit, or about 6-7 feet in front of my eyes. This might be a bit too close for optimum viewing, but I like being enveloped by the screen while driving. No motion sickness, but driving some of the more "springy" cars is quite a sensation. The motion of all the cars is clearly more evident and it feels as if I'm better able to react to the curves and breaking points. Taking the F1 out for a spin made my hair stand backwards!!

Thank you all so much for your great advise and points to consider.
 
Sorry to bump a 2 year old thread but Im gearing up for GT5 and wondered what peoples thoughts are on this thread since 2 years worth of technology has passed.

I've always really wanted a projector just for the gaming and movie experience and now than HD projectors are almost in a price range that I could afford, I'm wondering if it is the way to go.

The alternative is a 37 - 45" HD LCD. Which would probably be cheaper.

If Im gonna drop 2 or 3 k on a display, I want it to be future proofed for a while at least, so a projector works in case I move house, I can change the picture size relative to the new room.

The thing Im concerned about is if you own a projector, do you eventually get used to its size so its nothing special after a while? Which means going for something more practical like an lcd would be better?
When I say practical I mean for watching during daylight hours.

My other question is what lumens ratio is the minimum you would want to have these days? As it seems the better contrast or lumens or whatever it is, determines the cost to a great degree. Obviously more expensive is better, but for me its a case of waiting until the minimum lumens that is recommended for some daylight viewing drops into the price range I can afford. (usd$2,000 or around that)
 
Nowadays you have HD projectors though... Im not sure on pricing... My bro has a Sony projector thats 5 years old and I use to play GT4 at his house on the PS2... The screen he has is one that rolls down the wall with the push of a button and its something like 3m X 1.5m or so.. If you played GT4 on it, it really felt like you were on the track... the road is just HUGE! It is also capable of projecting 720p but we have not tried it yet with the PS3 because we need something to go from HDMI to a component cable to hook it up properly on the projector.. I think this is going to be a hard decision for you... :D Big Flatscreen or Projector... :banghead:

edit: lol... didnt realise this was an OLD thread... oh well, this is my comment anyway :p
 
I have both:

63620423.jpg

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/923/img8159agi.jpg (larger version)

TV: 40 inch / 102 cm
Projector screen: 122 inch / 310 cm
PC screen: 22 inch / 56cm
Room size: 6 m x 3,80 m x 2,50

When I play on the big screen, I put the small monitor beside the desk. It's still on the desk for the photo to show the difference in size. The TV is actually smaller than it looks, because I used an ultra wide angle lens.

There is nothing better than a huge screen. A projector totally owns any TV. The only drawback is that you have to completely darken your room.
 

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