Health Care for Everyone

  • Thread starter Danoff
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Actually most of it is covered by private insurance - to a degree. All of it we get tax advantages on CURRENTLY from the government (ok, not the contact lens cleaner). Are you telling me none of that is ever going to be covered by public health care? You are aware the government programs grow right?

I want my $500 orthotics...

I have no clue what public health care would pay for. But I can guess that if your ability to walk was so detrimental it may lead to other problems, ie falls or other orthopedic alignment problems, it would be covered. Doing test just for fun probably won't be covered.

Why isn't your private healthcare paying for it? Why isn't your private insurance giving you what you pay for, but rather giving inadequate, meaning $20k worth of inadequacy, care? And you wonder why private insurance is so cheap (pun intended), that is why!
 
Doing test just for fun probably won't be covered.

It won't be, Meaningful Use is already dealing with that. Hospitals can perform all the tests they want but by 2014 they may or may not get reimbursed by Medicare or Mediciad. Same goes for readmission rates and preventable hospital acquired issues such as pneumonia or infections.

If a nationwide plan was enacted for everyone and not just the elderly or the poor I assume there would be even more Meaningful Use indicators put into place to keep healthcare in check.

From someone working in a hospital I only see good things coming from Meaningful Use, it not only cuts down on waste and streamlines budgets, but it also keeps many people employed (like myself) so that all that data can be tracked an analyzed.
 
Oh come now. That's not the real reason is costs a "little bit" more. It costs a TON more for the purely economical reason that any time you divorce the consumer from any incentive to conserve, they over consume.

Imagine if your grocery store announced that all food (a basic necessity of life) was "free". I want you to picture empty shelves, hoarding, and rationing. Now imagine the bill if that "free" food came at the expense of the taxpayer. Healthcare is no different. It is a service that is always over used when the consumer doesn't bear the cost. This is basically true of all socialized anything.

Here in the US, we've managed to shoehorn ourselves into a private pseudo-version of that (with some help from the government of course). This is fixable in a way that doesn't attempt to deny economics the way public healthcare does.

This is my final post on this topic until someone can advance the debate in a meaningful manner. We are going around in circles here. I have encountered misinterpreted abstract concepts and also oversimplified causal relationships on numerous occasions (which is largely the reason for this occurring, in my view). I will address several (frequently ignored) important points because the unsubstantiated misinformation flying around here is poisoning the debate (not just points, almost entire arguments, I'm talking about here).

1. American citizens are already paying more for their healthcare through taxes than we (the Breetish) are (we, a totally non-functioning state-run system which ranks much higher in coverage, cost-efficiency and quality). IT WILL NOT COST YOU MORE TO HAVE SOCIALISED HEALTHCARE. STATISTICS SHOW IT WILL COST YOU LESS (please reference my previous posts from here on). Rest assured, when you're paying directly, you're also doing it through some other means, as highlighted by my previous posts (which probably don't even include lost tax revenue from breaks and corporate rates and so on). Any implications that the private sector can totally and effectively cover you or the country (or "subscribers") for 5% of your wages (or anything like that) is less than half the picture or giving a false impression. You are paying a lot more than that. Even then, depending on your plan, that's only when you're healthy.

2. Private sectors are not driven by the purity of innovation itself: it is driven by innovation for economic gain. I know that some believe a well-rounded private healthcare system would be more efficient than a state-run one would; it works in most industries (maybe elements of it could in health, too: hence my earlier suggestion); but the reality is that dollars are the bottom line. Let's not kid ourselves here. If that means R&D, then great! But all-too-often, it means manipulating the system for financial gain (even in the cases where, despicably, people are left without their previous coverage for life-threatening conditions http://health.usnews.com/health-news/family-health/cancer/articles/2009/02/05/cancer-patients-often-stranded-in-health). In healthcare this is simply unacceptable and I cannot believe that some are not able to see this or are willing to overlook it. I believe it is possible to greatly improve the system in its current form (with MASSIVE regulation). But, as long as you have a private health system (especially if it dominates the industry), it will always try and find ways to get more for less. That in itself is not a problem, but when it means breaking moral and sometimes criminal laws, that's something else. Taking the pharmaceutical industry as an uncomfortably close example, have a look at this report http://laudyms.wordpress.com/2010/05/05/who-issues-warning-about-corruption-of-pharmaceutical-industry/. The WHO had to issue this report, it was so bad. Other industries are the same or similar; it's an unfortunate ill-effect of capitalism on the whole (but don't misunderstand that as a denunciation of capitalism as a concept; nor do I believe ALL capitalists are a bad - just the good ones :sly: ).

As highlighted again (by the source below on medical bankruptcy), this trend of 'money matters more' is consistent and commonplace. Think back to the campaigns against Nike because of their manufacturing habits, the mass use of third world labour (look-up the term 'sweatshops'). Hell, the US itself was established (at least territorially) on such moral "ambiguities": however you wish to look at it. That may have been a few centuries ago now, but I hope you take my well-beaten point..

People seem to have accepted that the situation in the American healthcare system is far from ideal: that's good. But, the only effective method known thus far (outside of socialisation) is the ever-unpopular massive increase in regulation. History has shown that strict regulation is an effective way to prevent abuse in a private system, but it's always playing catch-up and at the potential cost of the economy (depending on the circumstances). However, we are reaching the limits of my current knowledge base. Can anyone make any advances on that? Perhaps I've missed something. The point is that perfect systems don't exist. You have to decide between the options you've got. But a free-reign (or close to free0reign) private sector isn't one of them because they'll only do business with people from whom they can make money. That's not everyone, unfortunately.

3. Some people are just unlucky, or unfortunate, ignorant, conned, stupid, successfully manipulated by the industry, or a number of other things that can occur (totally or partially) outside of their control which will leave them at risk of being left out in the cold by the private health system. Positivism doesn't pay for the skyrocketing private health cover when, aged 16 in a neighbourhood at a football game for example, you manage to break your neck. Here's another example; bankruptcies caused by medical bills account for more than half of all claims in the US yearly - with or without insurance (in 2007, that was more than 65,000 people hammered out of business by the wonders of the American health system http://www.pnhp.org/new_bankruptcy_study/Bankruptcy-2009.pdf).

4. Danoff, you are making assumptions about socialised healthcare that are not true. We do have hypochondriacs, so does every society. No one claims that our particular system is the most efficient. But, our NHS has not broken down at all: let alone in anything like the fashion that you imply it will (nor has it done in many societies such as ours). Innovation DOES go on over here, and doctors DO work for (very decent) salaries and still turn-up every day, contributing to our society. People do work for reasons other than monetary gain (or specifically, profit).

Arora, no one said the constitution was vague (unless this occurred before page 32-odd).

Phew! I will now go and have a sit down. Somewhere else.
 
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I have no clue what public health care would pay for. But I can guess that if your ability to walk was so detrimental it may lead to other problems, ie falls or other orthopedic alignment problems, it would be covered. Doing test just for fun probably won't be covered.

I have a legitimate medical condition. I can claim I'm in pain and that it is detrimental to everything and it should be covered. This would have saved me $30 at sport chalet if complaining got me free orthotics. My private health care would cover some of the cost, but it would still cost me over $100 (as well it should). That's why I bought the $30 ones.... because I'm not really in pain. If I were, I'd have paid my portion of the costs. If all it takes is claiming I have pain to get it for free.... well....

(I still wouldn't do it. But lots of people would)

Why isn't your private healthcare paying for it? Why isn't your private insurance giving you what you pay for, but rather giving inadequate, meaning $20k worth of inadequacy, care? And you wonder why private insurance is so cheap (pun intended), that is why!

You're making my point for me. It's cheap(er) because it makes ME think about the price. It does that by covering some, but not all, of the costs (though don't get me going on what that does to the cost). Bottom line, making your customers think for just a second about cost saves money and reduces use... which is something you said was impossible unless the world was full of hypochondriacs.


This is my final post on this topic until someone can advance the debate in a meaningful manner.

Always a great way to start a post.

1. American citizens are already paying more for their healthcare through taxes than we (the Breetish) are (we, a totally non-functioning state-run system which ranks much higher in coverage, cost-efficiency and quality). IT WILL NOT COST YOU MORE TO HAVE SOCIALISED HEALTHCARE. STATISTICS SHOW IT WILL COST YOU LESS

You already proved the other way around. We're already paying more in taxes for socialized healthcare than you are and we don't even have it yet. Maybe our government just isn't as good at being socialist as yours. Should that make us want to use it more?

More to the point, we pay higher prices in the US because US consumers support the burden of innovation here. Many European countries benefit from that by saying to drug companies "either charge a far reduced price... one that could never sustain future drug development, or get nothing at all". That works ok if some countries do it. If everyone does it, no more innovation. In a very real sense US consumers ENABLE socialized healthcare elsewhere.

You are paying a lot more than that.

...and almost entirely for healthcare I don't even use (don't even qualify for).

I believe it is possible to greatly improve the system in its current form (with MASSIVE regulation).

...religiously....

But, as long as you have a private health system (especially if it dominates the industry), it will always try and find ways to get more for less. That in itself is not a problem, but when it means breaking moral and sometimes criminal laws, that's something else.

We should have a law against breaking criminal laws.

People seem to have accepted that the situation in the American healthcare system is far from ideal: that's good. But, the only effective method known thus far (outside of socialisation) is the ever-unpopular massive increase in regulation.

Totally completely untrue. Many suggestions for healthcare reform in the US that do not involve increases in regulation have been proposed here and by politicians.

History has shown that strict regulation is an effective way to prevent abuse in a private system

Has it? The FDA kills thousands every year. How many does it save? Is that preventing abuse or causing it?

You have to decide between the options you've got. But a free-reign private sector isn't one of them because they'll only do business with people from whom they can make money. That's not everyone, unfortunately.

It's a good thing the food industry doesn't have that rule.... oh wait....

3. Some people are just unlucky, or unfortunate, ignorant, conned, stupid, successfully manipulated by the industry, or a number of other things that can occur (totally or partially) outside of their control which will leave them at risk of being left out in the cold by the private health system.

Actually you're thinking of a private housing system. It's housing that might leave them out in the cold. Healthcare might leave them in their sickbed. Sounds like an argument for public housing.

Positivism doesn't pay for the skyrocketing private health cover when, aged 16 in a neighbourhood at a football game for example, you manage to break your neck.

No, but health insurance does.

Here's another example; bankruptcies caused by medical bills account for more than half of all claims in the US yearly - with or without insurance (in 2007, that was more than 65,000 people hammered out of business by the wonders of the American health system http://www.pnhp.org/new_bankruptcy_study/Bankruptcy-2009.pdf).

This is because many people's jobs have a physical component. Often getting old means having medical bills AND SIMULTANEOUSLY losing a job that requires physical labor. So now you have no job, and bills. Bankruptcy. Who's fault is that by the way? The guy who didn't save up enough to retire before he got too old to work the jackhammer.

4. Danoff, you are making assumptions about socialised healthcare that are NOT TRUE. We do have hypochondriacs, so does every society. No one claims that our particular system is the most efficient. But, our NHS has not broken down at all:

How long does it take you to see a dentist? Do you know how long it takes to get an MRI in Canada? Long enough to die.

People do work for reasons other than monetary gain (or specifically, profit).

Very rarely.... even in England.
 
Glad to see that as I was making good use of our private healthcare industry in a private, non-profit hospital that you all were debating what I said.

Let me break things down in a dollars and cents explanation.

Of the four plans I have an option on, the single rate premiums are $0, $30.74, $37.24, and, $62.74. The max out of pocket on the premium-free plan is $3,500. Compared to reality incomes, minimum wage comes out to be about $15,000. $12,000 is an unrealistic income amount for anyone working full time in the US. At most, the cheapest plan would cost someone on minimum wage 23% of their income. That is assuming a disaster strikes. It is feasible that it will never cost a penny. It is also similar to some estimates of the taxes necessary to cover a socialized healthcare plan. Of course the state pays a minimum of $21,000, so the true maximum would be about 17%.

Never mind that I made it obvious 5% is the lowest possible rate at my wife's income. Let's ask it this way: Can a socialized system cover everyone for a maximum annual cost to every individual of $3,500?

I admit that plan means charging a lot more at point of service than the other plans that will cost more in premiums, but at least I have options of what and how I will be paying out of pocket. And yes, this is simplified and breaking down all comparisons and giving state-run comparisons would take days but I don't get paid for this so we will stick with simple.


Also, as for whether people would abuse doctors: We don't get antibiotic resistant diseases from lack of use. Drug ads don't tell you that if you have symptoms to ask your doctor about their drug because no one likes going to the doctor. And lawyers don't advertise to people suffering from side effects because they had doctors break into their homes and force them to take treatments. No, we have created a society of people who believes the world owes them everything on a silver platter, and if it doesn't work out exactly as they hoped then they are owed for that too. People abuse doctors in hundreds of different ways, and the worst is parents with a sick kid. They want a drug, no matter what the issue is. Our pediatrician knows me well enough now to say, "Many times parents like us to prescribe X drug, but that really just makes us feel better. It won't do anything for her." Gee I wonder what all those other parents are doing getting drugs when they avoid the doctor.

From someone working in a hospital I only see good things coming from Meaningful Use, it not only cuts down on waste and streamlines budgets, but it also keeps many people employed (like myself) so that all that data can be tracked an analyzed.
Meaningful Use sounds a lot like what private insurers call medical necessity. Do I trust politicians and bureaucrats to make those calls? Hell no.

The other problem I see with meaningful use is it will often be determined by budgets. Do we just constantly enlarge the budgets, thus raising taxes on healthy people, to cover rising healthcare costs due to living longer and having a larger population, or do we just wind up with a situation like Arizona?

Then there is the understanding of meaningful use and those who approve individual cases. As someone who has had even insurance rule a lack of medical necessity on claims due to nothing more than my young age and requiring I call and appeal, I wonder what hoops I have to jump through when dealing with government. I have yet to do anything with any government agency where I walked away thinking how pleasant that experience was.



On a personal, yet related note, my cardiologist brought me news from a conference he recently attended. There is a new device that is designed specifically for one of my situations that may help me to postpone my transplant even longer. It is called a Melody TPV. It is created by the same company that makes my defibrillator, Medtronic. It is something we would be looking at in a couple of years to help maintain my quality of life and open my conduit more. Part of me was surprised because I wasn't aware that many people had pulmonary conduits that were dealing with stenosis. I asked him about it and his exact words were, "The conduits are something mainly only done in congenital cases, but there are enough of them that Medtronic saw a market for a profitable product." It is as yet not thoroughly tested but has been given a Humanitarian Exception by the FDA to be provided without full testing.

I have to wonder, would this device even exist in a socialized system? I mean, there are ways to treat a stenotic pulmonary conduit, but this is the first non-invasive treatment. As other treatments are usually done alongside other things that are necessary, as was the case when mine was put in and when mine was planned to be removed, both before we knew I needed a transplant and as part of the transplant, there is no direct need for non-invasive treatment other than to create something that is easier on the patient. It is not a fix and is just temporary to maintain quality of life until it is absolutely necessary to perform invasive surgery. Heck, I only have it as a possible option now because of an appeal to the FDA. Without that it wouldn't even be available to me by the time I would need it.

So, as I see a new technology provided by profit-hunting, greedy capitalists seeking to make money off of me, I have to say, "Damn them and their technology to extend my life."

Would I happily pay them for this? Yes. Would I demand the government make any of you pay for it? No. That would be immoral.
 
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It is created by the same company that makes my defibrillator, Medtronic.

...a US company. Medtronic is the world's largest medical device company. I know this in part because they've been trying to recruit my wife to work there (specifically to help them earn a profit on their medical device research).
 
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...a US company. Medtronic is the world's largest medical device company. I know this in part because they've been trying to recruit my wife to work there (specifically to help them earn a profit on their medical device research).

Considering this is twice now that they have presented me with technology to extend my life, and quality of life, she would have a ton of respect from me if she took that offer.




Also, I fixed my above link for the device as it, wasn't pointing at the main page.
 
Considering this is twice now that they have presented me with technology to extend my life, and quality of life, she would have a ton of respect from me if she took that offer.

Interestingly enough she probably would if it were their cardiovascular division.
 
For those against national healthcare, wouldn't it be more adventageous to argue the laws preventing the very idea rather than entertaining the ramifications?(cut off the head)

Those in favor will argue the 'general welfare clause'(gross interpretation). Which of the 18 powers of the enumerated powers doctrine does it fall under and how can it pass the 10th amendment?

The constitution can still be preseved if we hold our elect accountable and if needed, take cases to the supreme court.

John Shadegg has the right idea with H.R. 450 for instance. Some insperation(lol)....

"If congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the general welfare, the government is no longer a limited one possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one subject to particular exceptions."

James Madison

"The government of united states is a definite government, confined to specified objects. It is not like the state governments, whose powers are more general. Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government"

James Madison

People wanting more socialist programs should move to California, and we should restore the power of the states.
 
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Let's ask it this way: Can a socialized system cover everyone for a maximum annual cost to every individual of $3,500?

Yes, quite easily. The reasoning being that not everyone will take out of the healthcare system.

In a very simplified form, for everyone who has £35,000 of healthcare, there are 10 people who pay £3,500 in taxes who don't. Which is why health insurance companies make huge, huge profits - as with all insurance, they are betting on you not needing a payout at any point. And so it is with universal healthcare - the government relies on only a small portion of the population getting sick at any one time.

One big advantage of universal healthcare over private is prevention. For a private provider, there's no money to be had in say, getting someone to stop smoking. However, with a universal system, it's cheaper to provide Stop Smoking services than it is to treat snoking-related diseases.

Another advantage is early diagnosis and surviveability. If seeing a doctor is free, people are much, much more likely to see one in the early stages of a disease, rather than leaving it oo late. Yes, you will always get those people who will go because they "feel funny", but you will also get a lot of people who will have their live saved by going "I'm probably wasting your time but..."

Ghandi said "A nation's greatness is measured by how it treats its weakest members." and I think he had a point. In a capitalist society, you will always have the poor underclass. Whether you think this is good or bad, it's a fact of capitalism. Is it really that bad to help these poor a little? Especially when you take into account that it's the poor who are most likely to need healthcare? Or is that straying too far towards the dreaded dundunduuuuun socialism?
 
Michael Moore is a great sicko

Better :P

Seriously though, many of the things Madison warned and argued against during the cod fishery debate have come to fruition for those disliking liberty. Moore points that out in a seemingly proud maner suggesting, we're almost there! Throwing in healthcare
is a no brainer at this point.

At least he doesn't pretend to defend any of it with laws.
 
Yes, quite easily. The reasoning being that not everyone will take out of the healthcare system.

In a very simplified form, for everyone who has £35,000 of healthcare, there are 10 people who pay £3,500 in taxes who don't. Which is why health insurance companies make huge, huge profits - as with all insurance, they are betting on you not needing a payout at any point. And so it is with universal healthcare - the government relies on only a small portion of the population getting sick at any one time.

You're forgetting that the ten people paying £3,500 in taxes each are averaged. Three will pay nothing as they are unemployed or below the minimum taxable threshhold. Two will pay between nothing and £3,500. Two will pay between £3,500 and £7,000. Three more will pay £7k, £8k and £11k each.

Foolkiller's question was not of averages, but a capped maximum value - can any socialised healthcare system provide universal healthcare for all (not just "subscribers") at a capped, maximum "contribution" of $3,500 (or £3,500, since, although the £ is about 1.6$, things tend to cost the same number with a different sign).

In the UK that's asking 38m taxpayers to pay a maximum of £3.5k each to the NHS to cover 62m citizens, which would be, unless the maximum contribution was set at a very low income level or just universally applied, an average of £1,750 each and a total contribution of £66.5bn. Presently the NHS costs £100bn a year to run, doesn't cover dentistry, doesn't cover optical correction and doesn't cover prescription drugs so the answer is "no".
 
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Damn you and your actual facts! They have no place on the internet!

So, thinking about this - I'm paid just over the national avergae and pay just over £3K a year in PAYE. From this, I'm making the leap that that's the average amount of taxe people in the UK pay (if I'm averagely paid, it's dsafe to assume I'm averagely paid), but I find it hard to believe that 2/3 of my wages go to the NHS. Is the rest made up from VAT, fuel duty etc, or what?
 
Damn you and your actual facts! They have no place on the internet!

So, thinking about this - I'm paid just over the national avergae and pay just over £3K a year in PAYE. From this, I'm making the leap that that's the average amount of taxe people in the UK pay (if I'm averagely paid, it's dsafe to assume I'm averagely paid), but I find it hard to believe that 2/3 of my wages go to the NHS. Is the rest made up from VAT, fuel duty etc, or what?

Tax used to be demarcated - road tax (VED) went on roads and suchlike. Now, all tax goes into a single pot (the Treasury) and paid out from that pot.
 
One big advantage of universal healthcare over private is prevention. For a private provider, there's no money to be had in say, getting someone to stop smoking. However, with a universal system, it's cheaper to provide Stop Smoking services than it is to treat snoking-related diseases.
Then please explain why the insurance book has a second page of rates for smokers, and many insurance companies offer incentive programs through their employer provided plans to get people to stop smoking.

Another advantage is early diagnosis and surviveability. If seeing a doctor is free, people are much, much more likely to see one in the early stages of a disease, rather than leaving it oo late. Yes, you will always get those people who will go because they "feel funny", but you will also get a lot of people who will have their live saved by going "I'm probably wasting your time but..."
Also, the rates breakdowns make a general practitioner visit significantly cheaper to the individual than hospital visits, which encourages preventative action. Pay $15 now or thousands later. The prescription plans will also offer mail-order bulk pricing rates for maintenance drugs, which is how I take 11 medicines for less than $50 a month. Private insurers greatly benefit from preventative medicine and healthy lifestyle practices. It is the difference of paying a few hundred a year per subscriber vs as much as millions a year for one or two who didn't heed lifestyle warnings or take action that can result in early diagnosis of problems.



Ghandi said "A nation's greatness is measured by how it treats its weakest members." and I think he had a point. In a capitalist society, you will always have the poor underclass. Whether you think this is good or bad, it's a fact of capitalism. Is it really that bad to help these poor a little? Especially when you take into account that it's the poor who are most likely to need healthcare? Or is that straying too far towards the dreaded dundunduuuuun socialism?
Voluntarily helping the poor is great. Forcing an entire society to do it is straying too far towards any number of bad political terms you wish to use.
 
Then please explain why the insurance book has a second page of rates for smokers, and many insurance companies offer incentive programs through their employer provided plans to get people to stop smoking.

They have a second page of rates because people who smoke are a higher risk to them. Risk is bad to an insurance company. It's not the insurance company that's the problem, t's the healcare provider who have no incentive to prevent disease, only to cure it.

Also, the rates breakdowns make a general practitioner visit significantly cheaper to the individual than hospital visits, which encourages preventative action. Pay $15 now or thousands later. The prescription plans will also offer mail-order bulk pricing rates for maintenance drugs, which is how I take 11 medicines for less than $50 a month. Private insurers greatly benefit from preventative medicine and healthy lifestyle practices. It is the difference of paying a few hundred a year per subscriber vs as much as millions a year for one or two who didn't heed lifestyle warnings or take action that can result in early diagnosis of problems.

Here's the thing, while I see your points there, I still find it fairly awful that you have to pay to see a GP and the fact that you have a chronic condition and have to pay for your drugs.


Voluntarily helping the poor is great. Forcing an entire society to do it is straying too far towards any number of bad political terms you wish to use.

As Greece has very ably demonstrated, if you don't force people to pay tax, they don't do it, no matter what it's subsequently used for. And do ou really begrudge the poor and the disadvantaged healthcare that much? There's something seriously wrong with that.
 
Here's the thing, while I see your points there, I still find it fairly awful that you have to pay to see a GP and the fact that you have a chronic condition and have to pay for your drugs.

Somebody has to - why not the individual using them?

I find it awful I have to pay to get a car and have to pay to put gas in it... You get the idea.


As Greece has very ably demonstrated, if you don't force people to pay tax, they don't do it, no matter what it's subsequently used for.

It's not a question of forcing people to pay tax - each of the two countries primarily discussed here have pretty effective mechanisms of doing that - but of what that tax does...

And do ou really begrudge the poor and the disadvantaged healthcare that much? There's something seriously wrong with that.

Why? We apparently begrudge them food, clean water and a place to live, enough to not even consider paying for them through taxation - nobody's clamouring for a National House Service - yet every single person alive right now will die before the month is out with none of those, compared to a tiny handful of people who will die before the month is out without governmentally-provided access to medicine.

It's not about not wanting the poor to have something. It's about wanting everyone to have their rights respected by everyone else, including not expecting that someone who has spent 20 years paying for a great deal of education and who has a tenuous grip on a career easily removed by a simple allegation of wrongdoing should give you their professional attention and advice without you paying for it.

The people who lose out most from socialisation are the low earners (or "poor"). The people who gain most from capitalism are the low earners (or "poor"). It's just tough to sell well, because socialism looks like rich people giving their money and stuff to the poor and capitalism looks like rich people earning more than you.
 
Somebody has to - why not the individual using them?

I find it awful I have to pay to get a car and have to pay to put gas in it... You get the idea.

Yeah but there's varying degrees. You don't need a car to live, you choose to have one, so why shouldn't you pay for it?

Nobody chooses to get cancer, and it can kill them, I have no problem with the system paying to help those people.

People choose to have children, I do have a problem with the system helping those people.

People don't choose to get hit by a car and paralysed, but it does happen, and I no problem with the system helping those.

... you get the idea.
 
I have no problem with the system paying to help those people ... I do have a problem with the system helping those people ... I have no problem with the system helping those.

Which is irrelevant - exactly what could you do if you thought differently?

Foolkiller didn't choose to be born with a barely functional heart. He has a problem with "the system" helping him.
 
Yeah but there's varying degrees. You don't need a car to live, you choose to have one, so why shouldn't you pay for it?

Nobody chooses to get cancer, and it can kill them, I have no problem with the system paying to help those people.

People choose to have children, I do have a problem with the system helping those people.

People don't choose to get hit by a car and paralysed, but it does happen, and I no problem with the system helping those.

... you get the idea.

Nobody chooses to be born. Should the "system" provide those people with a lifetime of clothing, food, medical attention, water, electricity, etc. etc?
 
Which is irrelevant - exactly what could you do if you thought differently?

It's not irrelevant, I can't do anymore than hope a political party offers change to the system, and then give them my support. What can anybody do if they have issue with the way their government operates...........


Foolkiller didn't choose to be born with a barely functional heart. He has a problem with "the system" helping him.

....... including Foolkiller with a dodgy-heart.


Beyond that, I'm not sure if I'm agreeing with you or not. I have private healthcare with BUPA and have never used it, I've probably made 4 visits to my GP in twenty years and had to have half my ear stitched back on (after a nasty fall), and my finger x-rayed after an accident at work... would I be better off with a reduction in taxes but paying for each visit..? I'm not sure, but I think I probably would?

Public and private healthcare can easily co-exist, and I think that they should, for the greater good.


Nobody chooses to be born. Should the "system" provide those people with a lifetime of clothing, food, medical attention, water, electricity, etc. etc?

Umm, if a person is unhappy that they are alive they can change that very easily, they have a choice. If a person is unhappy they are dying, they may well not have a choice, c'mon, this is obvious.

Having said that, "The system" attempts to give them everything they need to provide those things for themselves, such as education and as much help as possible for under 16's who have no shelter, or food etc.... AND, the UK government has GIVEN £170 billion this year to people who do not provide for themselves... so even if you did never ask to be born, it's not the end of the world.
 
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Umm, if a person is unhappy that they are alive they can change that very easily, they have a choice. If a person is unhappy they are dying, they may well not have a choice, c'mon, this is obvious.

I guess I didn't make myself clear. You were pointing out that people find themselves in situations that are not the result of their own choices and should not be expected to fend for themselves in those circumstances. That is still true for someone who doesn't want to work. They didn't ask to be here, and they don't want to fend for themselves. Should government come to the aid of people who don't want to fend for themselves?

Having said that, "The system" attempts to give them everything they need to provide those things for themselves, such as education and as much help as possible for under 16's who have no shelter, or food etc.... AND, the UK government has GIVEN £170 billion this year to people who do not provide for themselves... so even if you did never ask to be born, it's not the end of the world.

This is, of course, not the responsibility of society, who did not choose for that child to be born, and should not be expected to fend for it. It is the responsibility of the parents - who's actions resulted in the child in the first place.
 
Somebody has to - why not the individual using them?

I find it awful I have to pay to get a car and have to pay to put gas in it... You get the idea.

But not having a car isn't going to kill you. Not being able to afford healthcare will.


Why? We apparently begrudge them food, clean water and a place to live, enough to not even consider paying for them through taxation - nobody's clamouring for a National House Service - yet every single person alive right now will die before the month is out with none of those, compared to a tiny handful of people who will die before the month is out without governmentally-provided access to medicine.

Hmmm... place to live and clean water. I have no idea why we don't provide that using taxpayers money. Except for all those council tennants who get that for free, obviously. And those people in emergency housing as well.

And Income Support, Jobseekers Allowance, Disability benefit et al are there to provide people with the essentials in life, like food, for example.


It's not about not wanting the poor to have something. It's about wanting everyone to have their rights respected by everyone else, including not expecting that someone who has spent 20 years paying for a great deal of education and who has a tenuous grip on a career easily removed by a simple allegation of wrongdoing should give you their professional attention and advice without you paying for it.

I'm not sure I'm getting you on this one. Are you defending those poor doctors who definitely aren't paid a fortune by the NHS? I have two mates who are doctors, the lowest paid of the two got £65K a year for his first full-time job, that's only a grand under being ELEVEN times what I got paid for my first full time job.
 
I have two mates who are doctors, the lowest paid of the two got £65K a year for his first full-time job, that's only a grand under being ELEVEN times what I got paid for my first full time job.

Probably a lot more than eleven times as difficult.
 
I'm not sure I'm getting you on this one. Are you defending those poor doctors who definitely aren't paid a fortune by the NHS? I have two mates who are doctors, the lowest paid of the two got £65K a year for his first full-time job, that's only a grand under being ELEVEN times what I got paid for my first full time job.
You got paid 6k in a full time job? That's part-time money in Tesco :odd:

Doctor's get paid a lot because: -
- They're highly educated.
- They make a small mistake and someone can die.
- They make any mistake and they can lose their job.
- They can make no mistake and they can lost their job.

And I know 3 med students who have all said they're not in it for the money.
 
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