Heel and Toe Shifting

  • Thread starter Thread starter highlifeGT
  • 81 comments
  • 6,435 views
highlifeGT

highlifeGT

Messages
200
Messages
JimmyLoops
Anyone use heel and toe to down shift? I got the G25 wheel finally, and I'm using heel and toe to downshift for most of my races, but I cant help but wonder whether the heel and toe would actually make a difference.

registered GTP division racers, I'm looking in your direction...
 
It does not make any difference at all. You can just clutch, shift and brake until you are slowed enough, release the clutch, and the engine will instantly come back to the matched rpm.

In other words, the game has no engine physics, or concept of engine internal inertia.

I wish it did.
 
Yep, Tzayad is correct. Heel toe downshifting does absolutely nothing in GT5P. In real life, rev matching downshifts is done to prevent any shock from being sent to the drivetrain that could upset traction mid-turn. The game physics aren't quite real enough to account for this, so you can get away without heel toe downshifting with no ill effects.

That said, I have a G25 and still rev match my downshifts when I play GT5P. I heel toe when I drive my car in real life, so I figure it can't hurt to blip the throttle when I play the game as well. I know it doesn't make a difference, but I don't want to get in the habit of not rev matching my downshifts.
 
Yes, I do! You don't have to, but it's way more fun. Although I wish the game would simulate what actually happens to stock clutches and engines when you just brake and downshift without rev-matching. :trouble:
 
Zmann42087
In real life, rev matching downshifts is done to prevent any shock from being sent to the drivetrain that could upset traction mid-turn.
Click to expand...

-Really? :p
JK

But I totaly agree, might as well do it while racing. I swear if I play more than 2-3 hours and then go out in the MR2, I'll feel like im back in the game...gota watch the speed more carefully, lol.

Learning heel and toe is probably EASIER in a real car though. Beleive it or not, it really took me a while to get used to heel and toe in the game AND keeping a good line, since it distracted me from my ussual focus points, BRAKING, and my turn in. I'm almost up to par with my Driving Force Pro times, just a few more hours on monday ought to do the trick. = )
 
I was under the impression that if you set ABS to "0" and setup your brake bias then you can feel the difference with rpm matching.

I could be wrong though 💡

GTP_Tzayad
It does not make any difference at all. You can just clutch, shift and brake until you are slowed enough, release the clutch, and the engine will instantly come back to the matched rpm.

In other words, the game has no engine physics, or concept of engine internal inertia.

I wish it did.
Click to expand...
 
I also imagine that in real life, not heel-toeing would cause irreversible damage to the engine in a relatively short time.
 
I do it because I'm so used to doing it from other games. As far as it doing anything, no it doesnt. What should happen if you didnt do it is your rear tyres should lock and chatter and you would get wheel hop and then spin or lose traction.

I dont know if this is going to be corrected in time for GT5 or if PD is even aware or cares. I doubt it will be fixed I think the physics we have right now are very close to the physics we are going to have in the full game.

Put another check in the SimCade box for GT5p :(
 
This has been covered a number of times before, not least here, here and here. So it wouldn't have hurt to use the search function.

The trouble with a heel and toe thread is that the comments soon turn, as they are, to comments about how the game should force you to heel and toe if you use the wheel by myopic people who don't realise that all gamers aren't at the same level, and that those who can't basically drive like a real racing driver shouldn't have the same priveledge as those who can do all the techniques.

You can't expect PD to pander completely to the sim market because then they'd barely sell any games and we wouldn't have the level of content we do today.

Basically, if you heel and toe then good for you, but don't scorn others because they can't or PD because they haven't implemented it 👍
 
StigNumbers
I also imagine that in real life, not heel-toeing would cause irreversible damage to the engine in a relatively short time.
Click to expand...
for sure.

Well, just for the fact that heel'n'toe is even possible in GT5p (though not really effective in GT5p), I am greatfull.
 
homeforsummer
This has been covered a number of times before, not least here, here and here. So it wouldn't have hurt to use the search function.

The trouble with a heel and toe thread is that the comments soon turn, as they are, to comments about how the game should force you to heel and toe if you use the wheel by myopic people who don't realise that all gamers aren't at the same level, and that those who can't basically drive like a real racing driver shouldn't have the same priveledge as those who can do all the techniques.

You can't expect PD to pander completely to the sim market because then they'd barely sell any games and we wouldn't have the level of content we do today.

Basically, if you heel and toe then good for you, but don't scorn others because they can't or PD because they haven't implemented it 👍
Click to expand...

Wow, really good point. I agree. sorry about not searching. = P
 
StigNumbers
I also imagine that in real life, not heel-toeing would cause irreversible damage to the engine in a relatively short time.
Click to expand...

Nope. You'll just wear out your clutch sooner. Lots of non racing oriented people driving manual cars actually believe it's a waste of gas and prefer to let out the clutch slowly when downshifting. I do it in real life because of how smooth slowing down becomes. If you dont do it you end up making everyone lean forward as you let out the clutch.
 
StigNumbers
I also imagine that in real life, not heel-toeing would cause irreversible damage to the engine in a relatively short time.
Click to expand...

I just read this post. That isn't strictly true. As PickleAhoy states, it'll just wear your clutch down pretty quickly, but even then, only if you're driving hard. In regular driving where the engine may only rev up to 3k revs (out of a possible 6k, for example) when you let the clutch out smoothly after a downchange, you'll be causing no more wear than you'd get through normal careful driving anyway. As below:

PickleAhoy
Nope. You'll just wear out your clutch sooner. Lots of non racing oriented people driving manual cars actually believe it's a waste of gas and prefer to let out the clutch slowly when downshifting. I do it in real life because of how smooth slowing down becomes. If you dont do it you end up making everyone lean forward as you let out the clutch.
Click to expand...

That's pretty much what I do. In normal driving, such as traffic or just getting from A to B along with the rest of the world, heel/toe doesn't have much point. It makes a lot of sense in performance driving but for a trip to the shops at the speed limit where you're doing low revs and not braking hard, I just tend to let the clutch out very smoothly. And as you say, it saves fuel if you're not intentionally revving the engine as you decelerate. In normal slowing and downchanging, an engine is barely using any fuel at all.

I don't heel/toe on the road as my pedals aren't placed very well for it at all, though I do rev match when I'm driving quicker, on my way into corners or roundabouts when I don't need to brake for them.
 
I'm using a pad and I can clearly see that the game blips the throttle for you, because when you downshift you can see the white bar, which represents throttle, go up for a moment. I'd ask G25 owners to check if the same thing happens with the clutch pedal active, because as I recall G25 is not officially supported by the game, and even though it works, PD might have left the details out, and the officially supported wheels don't have a clutch pedal.
 
There is no auto blip with the clutch enabled.
 
I might be going crazy but I always felt downchanging without heal and toe with the abs set to 0 caused the rears to lock up, increasing braking distance a little and also causing the rear to step out if its done mid corner? Maybe its less pronounced when using R tyres? I havnt used my g25 or played gt5p in a few months and wont be able to for a little while longer so if someone could test this and most probably prove me wrong that'd be good
 
I dont have a G25 yet so cant do it but when driving my car in real life i dont heal -toe shift in everyday slow driving as i like to brake smooth and stay off the brake as much as possible really and let the engine brake for me, but on a spirited drive i do heal- toe shift as i can stay in VTEC out of a corners quicker and obviously im at a high rev so it makes the engine and braking response so much smoother at those RPMs.
 
homeforsummer
I just read this post. That isn't strictly true. As PickleAhoy states, it'll just wear your clutch down pretty quickly, but even then, only if you're driving hard. In regular driving where the engine may only rev up to 3k revs (out of a possible 6k, for example) when you let the clutch out smoothly after a downchange, you'll be causing no more wear than you'd get through normal careful driving anyway. As below:



That's pretty much what I do. In normal driving, such as traffic or just getting from A to B along with the rest of the world, heel/toe doesn't have much point. It makes a lot of sense in performance driving but for a trip to the shops at the speed limit where you're doing low revs and not braking hard, I just tend to let the clutch out very smoothly. And as you say, it saves fuel if you're not intentionally revving the engine as you decelerate. In normal slowing and downchanging, an engine is barely using any fuel at all.

I don't heel/toe on the road as my pedals aren't placed very well for it at all, though I do rev match when I'm driving quicker, on my way into corners or roundabouts when I don't need to brake for them.
Click to expand...



That is my understanding of this case too.


Off Topic:

This 'heel n toe'-conversation did bring one flashback to my mind from my youthness 15 years away. My dad was rally co-driver, and I used to be sometimes sitting in co-drivers seat, when his crew was doing tests.

One time when we were driving around test-track with this amazing Audi coupe, and speed was something about 100km/h before left-hander hairpin, it happened. This great driver, Juha, somehow missed gas-pedal and same time lifted clutch quickly... huge backpunch and booom! everything was very silent for while, and car continued rolling slow, like it had Neutral gear selected...

Juha had big rush sametime, when taking seatbelts off, and I was still wondering what did happen. When he shout to me, 'take your seatbelts off quickly!!!' I did understand this is not over yet. Same time I saw thick smoke coming under cars front, and under everywhere, and started to take out those belts quicker than anything in my life before. :lol:

Juha had extinquisher in his hands, and then we just waited outside car if it will start to burn, but gladly it did not.

When smoking was ended, he opened hood, and we saw 4-6 inch hole middle of engines block. All that smoke came from oil, which was flying all over the engine and exhausts etc etc.

Juha said: 'damn... another 50 000mk!' (8500€)


ps. I hope Juha dont read these sites, but I was wondering earlier, why he need to put second gear in that hairpin... I think that outcome from hairpin would be possible to do with third gear also, cause he did change to third-gear almost right after it... but what will I know.
 
in my own car (240sx Sr20det) i ALWAYS rev-match when down-shifting, but heel toe is rarely used on a daily basis. No real need to. I used to heel-toe in gt5p but stopped after it did nothing. Now i just brake/clutch/down-shift without the rev-matching. In a real car it's recommended to rev-match if you want to down-shift. Otherwise yes your're clutch will wear out. And as i've heard and know is true, engine braking is more expensive as replacing a clutch is a lot more money and extensive than swapping brake pads/rotors.

:sly:👍
 
As far as I know rev-matching is only required in non-synchronised transmissions like the ones used in racecars and 18-wheelers, but modern cars are almost universally equipped with synchronised transmissions, and I'm pretty sure not rev-matching in this case will not do any noticeable harm.
 
blkvzgo
As far as I know rev-matching is only required in non-synchronised transmissions like the ones used in racecars and 18-wheelers, but modern cars are almost universally equipped with synchronised transmissions, and I'm pretty sure not rev-matching in this case will not do any noticeable harm.
Click to expand...

under normal driving conditions i would agree for the most part. But without rev-matching the clutch disc/pressure plate and possibly flywheel feel the wear and tear of NOT rev-matching which is why you feel that "DRAWBACK" feeling when down-shifting and just slowly letting go of the clutch without rev-matching. over time on a stock or race car this will cause the clutch to start slipping. So it doesn't harm the transmission so much, mostly just the clutch assembly itself.

{edit}-sorry hope i didn't go too off topic.
 
s15specr
How do you match the revs in a car??
Click to expand...

You're kidding, right?
sad-smiley-028.gif



Ehh.. it's a good article. I'll post it anyway.

YourMamaCantDrivepage1.jpg


YourMamaCantDrivepage2.jpg
 
blkvzgo
As far as I know rev-matching is only required in non-synchronised transmissions like the ones used in racecars and 18-wheelers, but modern cars are almost universally equipped with synchronised transmissions, and I'm pretty sure not rev-matching in this case will not do any noticeable harm.
Click to expand...


It's two different things.

You can easily realise why rev-matching is necessary with 'normal' gearboxes by imagine this: Drive very fast, lets say over 100km/h, push clutchpedal down... put second gear while keeping clutch down...rpm's are going down... release clutch then suddenly. No good.

Releasing clutch when tyres speed is too big compared to selected gear, makes huge torque to gearbox and engine. Engine can get damage because overshouting, valve damages etc etc, or something else brakes, like in that case which I was prooving... I think it was connecting-rod which came through engines block... never got final reason for damage, but it was definitive to that engine.


I've been driven lorry-truck which had non-synronized gearbox... wuller-gearbox, or something like that, I needed to push two times clutch when I wanted to change gears. Reason was very different. Finally I learn to change gears even without clutch, when I get that idea of rev-matching rpm's.
 
Last edited:
I thought in GT5p if you change down without heel and toe it causes the wheels to lock slightly (RWD). So there is a need for it.
 
eight6er
I thought in GT5p if you change down without heel and toe it causes the wheels to lock slightly (RWD). So there is a need for it.
Click to expand...


I've heard too, that it does not effect, so there is no real need... only if you want to be specific simulation-driver. It's beatiful technic, if you can do it.

Many of cars in this game also can be equipped with 'tip-tronic'-gears, so it's not big failure to use wheel-shifting.

That rev-matching feature really should be in final version. I'm just waiting right moment to buy G25, and I wanted to learn that method.
 
Last edited:
Sorry for being a noob and all but how does not doing this make the wheels lock?
 
s15specr
Sorry for being a noob and all but how does not doing this make the wheels lock?
Click to expand...


...hmmm... looks like my English is very poor, cause youre asking this even I tried to explain it few posts earlier. :ouch: Maybe I should not try to describe this kind of mechanical things with language which is not my own... it's so hard to find right words.

I'm sure some 'English' will say it much better soon.
 
if you watch the Drift Bible, it's actually a technique used called the "Shift Lock".

Basically you go into turn in 3rd gear as you're turning into turn.
then you downshift to 2nd WITHOUT Rev-matching. (clutch in, down to 2nd, clutch out, no gas).

What it does is shock or Upset the drive-train. Each gear can go a certain speed. In 3rd gear at 3krpm you are going 45mph. In 2nd gear at 3krpm you are going 20mph. To do 45mph in 2nd gear you have to be in 5krpm. So rev matching going from 3rd/3krpm(45mph) you blip/press the throttle when clutching/shifting-down to 2nd gear so the engine is now in the 5krpm range in 2nd gear which is ALSO 45mph. This creates a SMOOTHE transition from 3rd to 2nd gear. No drive-train shock, or upseting the balance of the car/tires/etc.

So if you're in 3rd gear and just down-shift to 2nd gear. The Engine isn't in the Correct rpm range for that speed. Doing so when the clutch engages the Engine needs to "catch-up" to the correct rpm so it puts drag/resistance on the drive-train. Doing this in a turn when your tires are already reaching their maximum grip level, will put extra force and push it past it's limit where the tire begins to slide/drift.

I hope that helps anyone and very sorry if this went off topic. :)👍

[all of the gear/rpm range is just for example. Each cars Gear Ratio and final Drive determine it's speed in a certain gear at a certain RPM.]

-Robert
 
Back