Hey, here's an idea, let's all write to Top Gear about Enthusia!

[Wolfe]

One thing I did notice on EPR was that on some cars, I can do a 90-180 degree turn using the e-brake on very slow speeds (no drift, no gas, just a simple e-brake pull while cornering). I usually notice this when I try to correct understeer from an FF on the Victoria road/garden hairpin turn. But I still prefer it to GT4.

Are you saying the rear end of the car doesn't slide, you just sorta...slow down, and turn? That's what a handbrake should do at really low speeds -- no inertia, no slide.

Konami should've gone for an all out sim, I believe. Yes, realism can be fun, specially if you know you can do all of the stuff on a video game on the car sitting in you garage (I'M NOT SAYING YOU SHOULD ), But with Enthusia's physics being pushed towards realism, and the gameplay modes and tuning leaning on the arcade side, It's really hard to know what market Konami was aiming for. But I believe in the essence of this thread... If Konami sucked at bringing attention to this game, then it can be the fans' initiative to do so. After all, how can we be sure that there will be a sequel?

I agree. The audience Konami seems to have been aiming for doesn't really exist.

As for a sequel, I'm beginning to think there won't be one...

 

[Scaff]

I understand LFS isn't perfect. In my opinion, however, it is the absolute best sim available today.

I would agree that its one of the best sims available today, not sure myself if it would go on my No1 spot. Its a close call but RBR, GTR and GTL are all in with a good shot.

I see. Oh well, as you said before, the gearchange times for pretty much all of the cars in GT4 are wrong...not to mention EPR is the very first driving game I've ever seen to properly simulate the way an automatic shifts. 👍 GT4 treats auto trannies like, well...computer-controlled manual trannies...

I don't recall saying that pretty much all the gearchanges in GT4 were wrong, a lot do seem to be a little on the long side . But given that a manual change can be as much to do with the driver as anything else it is a bit subjective.

I will not argue with regard to the autoboxes, which are far better done in EPR than GT4. The strange thing here is that PD can get them right, GT4rolouge had great auto changes, which for some reason got lost in the progress to GT4.

What's wrong with it? If we're only talking about weight transfer and the feel of the car, not its limits, as I'm sure you take issue with what you perceive to be a lack of understeer...

Leaving aside the understeer, which for me does not match what I know of Coopers. The car in terms of feel just doesn't feel like a Mini should, it seems to unstable at the back end, were as a Mini is a very stable flowing little car. Coopers don't respond well to being flug about, they need to be driven hard, but smoothly and the EPR Min just doesn't feel like that way for me.

Let me try to explain...I'm no professional driver, but I know how to escape understeer, among other things, so I never find myself in a terminal understeer situation unless I've entered a corner going far too fast. With Live for Speed's realism, this "instinct," if you want to call it that, carries over quite well. I rarely have trouble with terminal understeer in LFS, but if I try to screw up, obviously Live for Speed delivers with a spin, terminal understeer, or braking oversteer.

GT4, if you couldn't already guess, does not cater to this instinct, at least, for me. Cars will understeer too much, no matter what car it is, and no matter what I do. Lifting off of the accelerator suddenly, mashing the pedal to the floor, coasting to reduce speed and regain grip, transferring weight with the brakes and/or steering, nothing works.

EPR does cater to this instinct, quite well. Like LFS, I rarely have trouble with terminal understeer in EPR. Every time I try driving like some ham-fisted lunatic, if I don't spin out I understeer straight ahead into a wall (or I slide sideways, straight-ahead, into a corner, due to braking oversteer, something that GT4 does not do at all). RR cars and particularly unbalanced MRs are worse than FRs, as it should be, and to be honest, if FF's were as friendly as you make them out to be, I wouldn't hate them so much. Sure, EPR's understeer isn't as good as LFS's, but as we both agree, LFS is well ahead of both of the PS2 titles.

EPR in my opinion lets you get away with far too much before terminal understeer enters the equation, the difference between mild and terminal understeer when cornering on the limit is no more than a few MPH. Its a fine balance and one that I feel LFS and GT4 recreate better than EPR.

I rarely feel that EPR is going to punish me for pushing the limits of understeer, I do get that feeling in GT4 and more so in LFS.

In regard to eascaping terminal understeer, it is in reality very difficult to escape, once you have pushed a car than far its not easy to recover. This is the area that EPR makes too easy in my opinion.

Overdoes it? I'm sure you've told me before, but I can't draw the connection between this reference and any specific examples...

My main issue with EPR in this area is a difficult on eto explain, the easiest way for me to describe it is that the Centre of Gravity in a lot of the cars seems to be far to high, resulting in an sometimes exagerated sense of inertia.

Well, I wouldn't go around claiming that Enthusia's wet-track physics are excellent, by any means -- better than GT4's by a large margin, if only by the merits of the dry-physics the two are based on -- but I decided to try this myself, anyway.

I tested a Morris Mini Cooper at Tsukuba wet with the DS2 and found that the game would not allow me to throw on full lock, as I predicted, but, the car would still only rotate so much before stopping and simply sliding (mostly) forward, waiting until ~15mph to regain true grip.

I tested it again with the DFP and found that at full lock and full braking, you're S.O.L. if you were expecting to get any turning done. Straight and true until the wall "convinced" the car to do otherwise. Slowing down to ~15mph also worked.

I can assure you (from being 18 and stupid) that to try that in a real Mini is going to result in you ending up in a wall, not reaching ~15mph and getting the grip back.

In the test (and I assume you did the same) I kept full brakes and full lock on at all times, now the first car I wrote-off happened to be a Mini (not a Cooper thank god). Scaff@18 on a wet road, thinks he's invinciable, brakes too late, full brakes applied, straight off the road, down a bank and rolled the Mini into a ditch.

Now in the above situation the car was doing less than 15mph as it entered the field (which had it not been for the bank and ditch would not have killed the car), and thats without full lock being applied. Have you seen the tyres on a Mini? Tiny contact patches, once the grips gone, you have to do something to get it back, and with full brakes (and in the EPR scenario full lock) its not going to happen.

I exited that car, very scared, very wet (from the rain - nothing else) and one hell of a lot wiser.

Now GT4 doesn't get this 100% right either, but neither does EPR. I also think that direct comaprisons between EPR and GT4 wet tracks are difficult and flawed at best, as we have no idea of exactly how much standing water they are trying to simulate (otehr than quite a lot).

I believe Mr. Deap has a point, though -- a lot of the points against EPR have involved something along the lines of "*blank* is a little too easy" or "there's a little too much *blank*." Not all of them, but a lot of them.

GT4, on the other hand, has had plenty of examples and flaws that have been deemed either completely off, or quite inaccurate. Again, not all of them, but a lot of them.

At the risk of sounding like a biased, whiny little b****, it's as though smaller, less significant flaws in EPR are being weighed evenly against larger, more significant flaws in GT4. I don't blame you for doing it on purpose -- I believe much of that has to do with the fact that many of GT4's more obvious flaws (things like donuts or the handbrake) have been ignored, because there's nothing to be discussed.

Mr Deap has a poin and Is fully entitled to his opinion on the subject, it just happens that I disagree with him.

In regardto the GT do-nuts and handbrake issues, far from being ignored (by myself anyway) it was my frustration with these issues that caused me to test it out with every driveline type, across the entire GT series and then to post up the results. Hardly ignored!

To be honest I don't think that many other people have done as much as I have to examine very closely what is going on in GT4 and in a lot of cases (particularly brakes and tyres) try and examine how it relates to the real world.

As this has not been done with regard to EPR its hardly a level playing field.

I have one small rebuttal to offer to that -- EPR is a little-known newcomer to the racing sim market, and needs all the positive attention it can get if a sequel is to happen.

Sorry, but thats a rebutal that smacks of fan-boy (which I know you're not), EPRs new so leave it alone.

The following are from the back of the PAL release Enthusia box.

IT'S TIME TO GET "REAL"!

YOU THINK YOU'VE PLAYED A REALISTIC RACING GAME ALREADY? THINK AGAIN - GET "REAL" AND PLAY ENTHUSIA!

Emphasis and colour all Konami's.

Marketing or not, milder comments on the GT4 box art attract a lot more attention. They are (to my mind) inviting the level of analysis.

I also firmly believe that press reviews and volume sales are a lot more likely to determine if a sequel happens than my comments. Which are on the whole very positive.

Could you find me a quotation where someone said that EPR should not be examined? Not to mention the fact that neither game needs to be examined with any amount of detail for someone to prefer one over the other.

I think you may be assuming that everyone has studied the games as closely as we have been doing.

The reason I used the word imply, is that I do not have a direct quote, rather that it has been "suggested without stating directly".

My comment also had nothing to do with preference, rather the manner in which the detail of the two is discussed.


Regards

Scaff

 

[Onikaze]

I pushed the physics engine in GT4 pretty hard.

It just pushed back (literally, push push push) though I did find some neat things and some stuff that was rather fun (taking an Evo VIII, turning AYC way up high, tossing it into a corner, steering way into the corner and watching it crab walk sideways around the hairpin in El Capitan was always neat) but it never really convinced me that the physics had anything to do with a real cars.

The Center of gravity in EPR does feel too high in some cars.

It's too low in GT4, the cars exhibit minimal body roll/pitch/dive unless you several screw with the suspension settings to get them bobbling around like mad.

Plus, the cars just don't feel different from one another, with few exceptions, everything starts to feel like the only variety is horsepower, weight, and drivetrain, nevermind steering feel, balance, suspension tuning, etc, just different bodies on the same underpinnings.

 

[Scaff]

I pushed the physics engine in GT4 pretty hard.

It just pushed back (literally, push push push) though I did find some neat things and some stuff that was rather fun (taking an Evo VIII, turning AYC way up high, tossing it into a corner, steering way into the corner and watching it crab walk sideways around the hairpin in El Capitan was always neat) but it never really convinced me that the physics had anything to do with a real cars.

The Center of gravity in EPR does feel too high in some cars.

It's too low in GT4, the cars exhibit minimal body roll/pitch/dive unless you several screw with the suspension settings to get them bobbling around like mad.

Plus, the cars just don't feel different from one another, with few exceptions, everything starts to feel like the only variety is horsepower, weight, and drivetrain, nevermind steering feel, balance, suspension tuning, etc, just different bodies on the same underpinnings.

You see thats wierd as I get the same feeling with the FWD cars in EPR, that little difference exists between them.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Wolfe]

EPR in my opinion lets you get away with far too much before terminal understeer enters the equation, the difference between mild and terminal understeer when cornering on the limit is no more than a few MPH. Its a fine balance and one that I feel LFS and GT4 recreate better than EPR.

I rarely feel that EPR is going to punish me for pushing the limits of understeer, I do get that feeling in GT4 and more so in LFS.

In regard to eascaping terminal understeer, it is in reality very difficult to escape, once you have pushed a car than far its not easy to recover. This is the area that EPR makes too easy in my opinion.

Um...terminal understeer only exists if you don't have enough track/road to escape it. Any understeer is escapable if you reduce the steering lock and/or let off of the throttle enough. You make it sound like it's something more than that.

In Enthusia, the difference between mild understeer and strong understeer (to get away from the word "terminal" for a moment) is, as you said above, no more than a few MPH. For this reason, I find FWD's rather tedious on courses with tight corners, like the Dragon Range. It's always a battle against the understeer unless you make a feeble hand-braked or weight-transferred attempt to avoid it. But that's slower, and tosses you back into strong understeer if you get back on the throttle too soon, and don't manipulate the steering correctly.

My main issue with EPR in this area is a difficult on eto explain, the easiest way for me to describe it is that the Centre of Gravity in a lot of the cars seems to be far to high, resulting in an sometimes exagerated sense of inertia.

I can sorta see what you mean, but I find it's quite easy to underestimate the amount of bodyroll/squat/dive cars will go through under hard cornering/accelerating/braking. Exaggerated or not, the movement adds a great deal to the "feel" of the game, helping you judge what the car is doing.

At least EPR's movement is more natural-looking than GT4's. The brake dive in GT4 reminds me of one of these drinking-bird-things. The rest of the motion is just stiff, fake, and not very noticable.

I can assure you (from being 18 and stupid) that to try that in a real Mini is going to result in you ending up in a wall, not reaching ~15mph and getting the grip back.

In the test (and I assume you did the same) I kept full brakes and full lock on at all times, now the first car I wrote-off happened to be a Mini (not a Cooper thank god). Scaff@18 on a wet road, thinks he's invinciable, brakes too late, full brakes applied, straight off the road, down a bank and rolled the Mini into a ditch.

Now in the above situation the car was doing less than 15mph as it entered the field (which had it not been for the bank and ditch would not have killed the car), and thats without full lock being applied. Have you seen the tyres on a Mini? Tiny contact patches, once the grips gone, you have to do something to get it back, and with full brakes (and in the EPR scenario full lock) its not going to happen.

I exited that car, very scared, very wet (from the rain - nothing else) and one hell of a lot wiser.

Now GT4 doesn't get this 100% right either, but neither does EPR. I also think that direct comaprisons between EPR and GT4 wet tracks are difficult and flawed at best, as we have no idea of exactly how much standing water they are trying to simulate (otehr than quite a lot).

I'm glad that your accident didn't turn out worse...

I agree completely with the inconclusivity of any wet-track comparisons between the two. The same can be said for snow and gravel/dirt.

Even so, I believe the problem is that EPR wasn't locking the brakes. I've used brake-locking combined with a weight shift to enter drifts, so I know it's possible, but for whatever reason, the Mini didn't do it.

Mr Deap has a poin and Is fully entitled to his opinion on the subject, it just happens that I disagree with him.

In regardto the GT do-nuts and handbrake issues, far from being ignored (by myself anyway) it was my frustration with these issues that caused me to test it out with every driveline type, across the entire GT series and then to post up the results. Hardly ignored!

To be honest I don't think that many other people have done as much as I have to examine very closely what is going on in GT4 and in a lot of cases (particularly brakes and tyres) try and examine how it relates to the real world.

That's not what I meant by "ignored." The donut and handbrake issues have been left in the background for all of this discussion, recently, because no one argues in their defense. I assumed they had been somewhat forgotten.

As this has not been done with regard to EPR its hardly a level playing field.

What would you call this discussion of ours, then?

Sorry, but thats a rebutal that smacks of fan-boy (which I know you're not), EPRs new so leave it alone.

The following are from the back of the PAL release Enthusia box.

Emphasis and colour all Konami's.

Marketing or not, milder comments on the GT4 box art attract a lot more attention. They are (to my mind) inviting the level of analysis.

I also firmly believe that press reviews and volume sales are a lot more likely to determine if a sequel happens than my comments. Which are on the whole very positive.

Scaff, calm down. I said "small rebuttal," and emphasized "small." It's fact that the GT series doesn't need any help in garnering sales, and EPR does. I was merely noting, light-heartedly, that such a situation was a bit of a reason to take it easier on EPR. The only semi-logical tangent that can be taken from that statement is the notion that Konami has nearly matched / matched / exceeded (depending on your POV) GT4, and it's only their first game, whereas PD has been doing this for years.

As for the box text you posted, I must admit that I do not see how that relates to my statement. I agree completely that it is overdone, perhaps overzealous, and definitely a bit silly as far as marketing strategy goes (who doesn't claim their game is the most realistic?), but I do not see the relation.

The reason I used the word imply, is that I do not have a direct quote, rather that it has been "suggested without stating directly".

My comment also had nothing to do with preference, rather the manner in which the detail of the two is discussed.

The point I was trying to get at is that many people would rather do other things than closely examine and compare the inner workings and core physics of two driving simulators. So, they'll just post what they think, based more on "feel" than detailed observation, and there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[Scaff]

Um...terminal understeer only exists if you don't have enough track/road to escape it. Any understeer is escapable if you reduce the steering lock and/or let off of the throttle enough. You make it sound like it's something more than that.

In Enthusia, the difference between mild understeer and strong understeer (to get away from the word "terminal" for a moment) is, as you said above, no more than a few MPH. For this reason, I find FWD's rather tedious on courses with tight corners, like the Dragon Range. It's always a battle against the understeer unless you make a feeble hand-braked or weight-transferred attempt to avoid it. But that's slower, and tosses you back into strong understeer if you get back on the throttle too soon, and don't manipulate the steering correctly.

In regard to the terminal understeer, I did say it was difficult to escape not impposiable and of course if you have the room it can be done. The point was that in most cases that you encounter it you have left it too late to have the room.

You're issues with FWD cars in EPR are one of the reasons I also have issues with them. On a tight course a good FWD is not totally lost, braking deep into the apex and a violent turn-in can be done, get the back loose and out and tight corners can be managed. It does depend on having the right car however, and does require some practice.

I can sorta see what you mean, but I find it's quite easy to underestimate the amount of bodyroll/squat/dive cars will go through under hard cornering/accelerating/braking. Exaggerated or not, the movement adds a great deal to the "feel" of the game, helping you judge what the car is doing.

At least EPR's movement is more natural-looking than GT4's. The brake dive in GT4 reminds me of one of these drinking-bird-things. The rest of the motion is just stiff, fake, and not very noticable.

I would not agree 100% on the GT4 motion, its not perfect, but I don't find it as bad, personally, as you do.

I would not argue that the EPR cars 'look' better in motion, but do still 'feel' that the COG feels wrong in some of the cars.

I'm glad that your accident didn't turn out worse...

I agree completely with the inconclusivity of any wet-track comparisons between the two. The same can be said for snow and gravel/dirt.

Even so, I believe the problem is that EPR wasn't locking the brakes. I've used brake-locking combined with a weight shift to enter drifts, so I know it's possible, but for whatever reason, the Mini didn't do it.

I would agree that braking is the one area that almost all of the console sims need to work harder on. Having the pad as a standard interface I feel is a limiting factor as more realistic braking would make a wheel/pedal set-up a must, and that would risk alienating a lot of potential customers. Still it would be nice if we were at least given the option.

That's not what I meant by "ignored." The donut and handbrake issues have been left in the background for all of this discussion, recently, because no one argues in their defense. I assumed they had been somewhat forgotten.

Nope not forgotten, I make no excuse for them, nor would I try. They are a major disapointment and one that I fail to understand, but I do feel that as far as 'racing/hot laps' go they are a minor issue. As far as overall realism go, they are a big issue.

You may remember I posted this area as one of my big plus points for EPR.

What would you call this discussion of ours, then?

I did'nt mean in terms of the discussion, more in terms of the actual hard testing such as 0-100-0 mph tests, lateral g tests, etc. I am as much as fault here as anyone, but I only have a limited ammount of time. GT4 and EPR arn't worth getting divorced over, LOL.

Scaff, calm down. I said "small rebuttal," and emphasized "small." It's fact that the GT series doesn't need any help in garnering sales, and EPR does. I was merely noting, light-heartedly, that such a situation was a bit of a reason to take it easier on EPR. The only semi-logical tangent that can be taken from that statement is the notion that Konami has nearly matched / matched / exceeded (depending on your POV) GT4, and it's only their first game, whereas PD has been doing this for years.

As for the box text you posted, I must admit that I do not see how that relates to my statement. I agree completely that it is overdone, perhaps overzealous, and definitely a bit silly as far as marketing strategy goes (who doesn't claim their game is the most realistic?), but I do not see the relation.

Opps, that didn't come over as it should have, sorry about that. Not meant as a serious point, just a silly observation of the marketing ploys that are used.

At least GT4 and EPR go some way to matching some of the claims, unlike ones such as Driving Emotion Type S, did you ever have the misfortune to try that?

In regard to the level of work Konami have put into EPR and how close they have got to the GT series in a single try is quite frankly amazing.

The point I was trying to get at is that many people would rather do other things than closely examine and compare the inner workings and core physics of two driving simulators. So, they'll just post what they think, based more on "feel" than detailed observation, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Quite agree, nothing wrong with that at all, its why I have no issue at all with anyone having a personal preference. I do however have issue (as I'm sure you do) with the occational silly comments regarding how X is more real than Y, because I say so. It is fortunatly very rare here at GTP, the same certainly could not be said for a number of other forums.


Regards

Scaff

 

[Hun200kmh]

@ Wolfe & Scaff: Well, I have my personal preference, as you know. And I must say that, after reading many of your "conversations" here and in the GT4 forum, that it has been both entertaining and educative, but the truth is that, even with full respect to Scaff's remarks about where he thinks GT4 recreates RL physics better than Enthusia, when I get home I never have to think a lot before picking EPR from the shelf. I simply like to drive in that game more than I like to drive in GT4. The "feel" of the cars makes it for me.

That said, I would like to ask Scaff a special favour: to make a thread, or just a post, comparing EPR and GT4 with the same depth (and ilustrating numbers) he used in the thread I've read a long time ago where he compared GT 1, 2, 3 and 4.

I know that there are only two tracks common to both games, but I'm sure that it would be enough. Scaff, I understand if such a work is too much to ask, but if you ever have some spare time in your hands, give it a chance.

@Onikaze and back on topic: Did the guys at Top Gear at least reply to your mail????

 

[Scaff]

@ Wolfe & Scaff: Well, I have my personal preference, as you know. And I must say that, after reading many of your "conversations" here and in the GT4 forum, that it has been both entertaining and educative, but the truth is that, even with full respect to Scaff's remarks about where he thinks GT4 recreates RL physics better than Enthusia, when I get home I never have to think a lot before picking EPR from the shelf. I simply like to drive in that game more than I like to drive in GT4. The "feel" of the cars makes it for me.

That said, I would like to ask Scaff a special favour: to make a thread, or just a post, comparing EPR and GT4 with the same depth (and ilustrating numbers) he used in the thread I've read a long time ago where he compared GT 1, 2, 3 and 4.

I know that there are only two tracks common to both games, but I'm sure that it would be enough. Scaff, I understand if such a work is too much to ask, but if you ever have some spare time in your hands, give it a chance.

@Onikaze and back on topic: Did the guys at Top Gear at least reply to your mail????

I'm glad that Wolfe and I have provided comments that have been so thought provoking, the open minded nature of the members here at GTP is one of the reasons why I love the place so much. So a big thank you from me (and I'm quite sure Wolfe as well). 👍

Also as I have said a few times, I have no issue at all with anyone preference between the two, I don't actually have a specific preference myself, which may explain why I love talking about both so much. LOL

In regard to a back to back test of EPR and GT4, its something I have been thinking of for a while, I can't say when it would happen, but be assured if I get the time, then it will happen.

And, yes Onikaze, have you had a reply yet (and a big sorry for hijacking the thread - hope you don't mind too much).

Regards

Scaff

 

[JasBird]

I have to say I really enjoy the discussions between Wolfe2x7 and Scaff. In addition to the books I've been reading on subject of high performance driving, racing etc, I find your post's (and others) very interesting and educational. 💡 Infact it's one of the reason I visit these forums so often

Also I must agree with Scaff that I would have difficulties chosing one game over the other, and I love them both for different reasons. Double the fun for us then Scaff 👍 Still like Hun200kmh suggested I would love if you did a post comparing EPR and GT4.

 

[bwc1976]

But with Enthusia's physics being pushed towards realism, and the gameplay modes and tuning leaning on the arcade side, It's really hard to know what market Konami was aiming for.

I guess I'm exactly the sort of person they're aiming it at. To me, races in Enthusia Life are fun, I'm constantly looking forward to sitting down for a quick race, and then another, and another, and another, and I never know what car I'll end up unlocking next, and even the slowest ones have their own distinct personalities and something I can learn from them.

In GT4 on the other hand, races have become more of a chore, too much like going to an actual job in order to keep buying or winning more cars. Either I end up finishing way ahead of everyone else, or way behind everyone else, and more and more often I'm resorting to B-spec in order to complete whatever championship I need in order to get access to whatever car I want to do time trials or have my photo taken in next.

They're both really cool in their own ways, but when I want to actually race the AI instead of bounce off of them, or when I want to practice drifting and donuts in an empty parking lot, Enthusia wins hands down.

 

[Scaff]

I have to say I really enjoy the discussions between Wolfe2x7 and Scaff. In addition to the books I've been reading on subject of high performance driving, racing etc, I find your post's (and others) very interesting and educational. 💡 Infact it's one of the reason I visit these forums so often

Also I must agree with Scaff that I would have difficulties chosing one game over the other, and I love them both for different reasons. Double the fun for us then Scaff 👍 Still like Hun200kmh suggested I would love if you did a post comparing EPR and GT4.

Once again thanks for that, glad to be of use, and good to others who are torn between the two.

As I said, once I have the time, I will do a side by side look at both,

Regards

Scaff

 

[rapapampam]

I don't really see that GT4 has too much understeer, we all know it's there IRL and what is wrong with throttle control.......Don't top racing drivers use this technique in real life as in taking a corner at steady precise rate so not to exceed grip around bend/corner.
I have done tried going around the circuits in EPR without sliding/drifting and I found it possible to have fun without the effects.

Both are equally good games...what else is there.

 

[Onikaze]

I found just grip driving in EPR quite enjoyable too, pushing for speed instead of style.

FWD cars in EPR were fun.

No sign from Top Gear yet.

Don't worry about hijacking the thread, carry on as you were.

 

[Wolfe]

In regard to the terminal understeer, I did say it was difficult to escape not impposiable and of course if you have the room it can be done. The point was that in most cases that you encounter it you have left it too late to have the room.

Perhaps this comes down to my personal driving style, and my tendency to throw cars into corners at borderline oversteer or beyond (thus barely giving them any chance to understeer on me), but I've never encountered any terminal understeer that wasn't a result of entering a corner far too fast, or applying far too much speed mid-corner in a large, long sweeper. Again, I have encountered these conditions in both Live for Speed and Enthusia (overspeeding is obvious, but a good example of mid-corner understeer can be found at Löwenseering's sweepers).

You're issues with FWD cars in EPR are one of the reasons I also have issues with them. On a tight course a good FWD is not totally lost, braking deep into the apex and a violent turn-in can be done, get the back loose and out and tight corners can be managed. It does depend on having the right car however, and does require some practice.

My issue with that aspect of FWD's, though, applies to real life. The key words here are "good FWD," "can be done," "the right car," and "practice." As I've told you before, I find the ZZT231 Celica to be a marvelous machine in Enthusia, allowing you to do almost anything you want with the tail.

Nope not forgotten, I make no excuse for them, nor would I try. They are a major disapointment and one that I fail to understand, but I do feel that as far as 'racing/hot laps' go they are a minor issue. As far as overall realism go, they are a big issue.

You may remember I posted this area as one of my big plus points for EPR.

Eh...I may be misinterpreting your comparison of "racing/hot laps" and "overall realism" here, but donuts and handbrake are important for more than just very-low-speed shenanigans. Many people use the handbrake to initiate drifts or FWD slides, and I still believe that the inability to do donuts reflects the physics modelling of inertia, and is more far-reaching than the simple fact that donuts are impossible.

I did'nt mean in terms of the discussion, more in terms of the actual hard testing such as 0-100-0 mph tests, lateral g tests, etc. I am as much as fault here as anyone, but I only have a limited ammount of time. GT4 and EPR arn't worth getting divorced over, LOL.

I understand, and I wish you luck if you decide to undertake such a thing -- EPR doesn't provide numbers like GT4 does...

At least GT4 and EPR go some way to matching some of the claims, unlike ones such as Driving Emotion Type S, did you ever have the misfortune to try that?

Driving Emotion Type-S -- the only game I've ever returned to Blockbuster on the same day that I rented it.

@Everyone else: Wow, thanks guys...I've always assumed that Scaff's older age and more extensive track experience meant I was dealing with an uphill battle, and that I was viewed by others as just some silly kid arguing with "the Man."

@Grip-driving in EPR: It is indeed fun, and more than easy enough...I drift so often (it's just too fun ) that I once questioned whether or not the game really was too drifty...so, I took an E46 M3 GTR 'round a track and promised myself to not drift. It was really easy. The only cars that are hard to keep in check are the ones that are...well, hard to keep in check, like the Cobra.

 

[Mr Deap]

The mini test video in Enthusia download

 

[road kill]

One thing I do like better with EPR is the Touge course (Dragon Range). Those are the best headlight effects I have ever seen in a racing game. Coupled with the physics engine & a DFP pro, it really does feel like driving in the dead of the night on a mountain course (makes you wanna look out for deers before roaring through a corner...) I do know that Top Gear may not care that much about video game race sims, but i really think they should try it. I'm no racer, but I am a driver, and replicating a car in a video game is still an awesome topic for petrol heads.

yea that is fun and hall however i felt in enthusia i could start a drift really really easy controlling it was harder but seriously i doubt a stock 180sx could drift like that stock it seriously took like no effort to start a drift so enthusia seemed drift happy unlike gt4 which makes u work for it your car needs tuning before it drifts well most cars

 

[Wolfe]

yea that is fun and hall however i felt in enthusia i could start a drift really really easy controlling it was harder but seriously i doubt a stock 180sx could drift like that stock it seriously took like no effort to start a drift so enthusia seemed drift happy unlike gt4 which makes u work for it your car needs tuning before it drifts well most cars

"Decent" horsepower + RWD = The car can drift

180SX's 200 horses = More-than-"decent" horsepower

Hell, my 101hp 318i could probably drift on dry pavement, if I had somewhere to pick up enough speed to do so. The drifts wouldn't be very long, especially with my open diff, but I would be able to do some slides.

No offense to you personally, but you're another example of the many people who have been "convinced" by the Gran Turismo series that drifting requires special tuning...

 

[Hun200kmh]

"Decent" horsepower + RWD = The car can drift

180SX's 200 horses = More-than-"decent" horsepower

Hell, my 101hp 318i could probably drift on dry pavement, if I had somewhere to pick up enough speed to do so. The drifts wouldn't be very long, especially with my open diff, but I would be able to do some slides.

No offense to you personally, but you're another example of the many people who have been "convinced" by the Gran Turismo series that drifting requires special tuning...

Wolfe, my 193hp (I think) old 325i can drift on dry pavement. But it is also true that it isn't easy to control it (needed a stiffer suspension and a different diff setting ). On wet or slippery roads I like to do some very very, very low speeds drifts (FF here stands for "Fear Factor", not "Force Feedback" ).

I think there's one thing you must agree: EPR makes drifting easy, and IRL it isn't that easy, and the FF isn't the only thing that makes it harder.

 

[Wolfe]

Wolfe, my 193hp (I think) old 325i can drift on dry pavement. But it is also true that it isn't easy to control it (needed a stiffer suspension and a different diff setting ). On wet or slippery roads I like to do some very very, very low speeds drifts (FF here stands for "Fear Factor", not "Force Feedback" ).

I think there's one thing you must agree: EPR makes drifting easy, and IRL it isn't that easy, and the FF isn't the only thing that makes it harder.

EPR is on the easy side, but not because of a lack of traction, or "drift-happiness," as road kill put it.

The shift in weight your car experiences if you countersteer too early and kill a drift, ending up sliding in the other direction, isn't really harsh enough in EPR. However, the fear factor and interface are still the biggest factors.