High Altitude Objects Over North America

  • Thread starter Joey D
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MonoTonouS
Always amazes me people conflate traveling in vacuum to traveling in atmosphere which has millions of variations . It would be unwise to assume your intergalactic ship could fly in any planets atmosphere where it could be subjected to corrosive gasses , extreme heat, wind , liquids , electricity etc. The vacuum of space can be mapped and traversed with ease and is virtually uniform if you stay out of the way of any celestial phenomenon. What im trying to say is , just because you traveled the stars with ease , doesn't mean your ship can travel in atmosphere with ease , there are billions of planets with billions of unique atmospheric conditions which can vary within planet..
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Who said anything about flying the interstellar space ships into the atmosphere?


I mean, for starters the supposition here is that these balloons that are amazingly easy to see and obliterate and only operate at high cruise altitude of terrestrial civilian aircraft rather than say any other part of the 60-mile high atmosphere have come from somewhere, and since it seems unlikely they're capable of interstellar travel (or indeed getting any higher than 40,000ft) it appears that the premise is that they have come from the interstellar spacecraft.

Bearing that in mind, why don't the interstellar spacecraft have something... you know... good in the balloon hangar bays instead of... that? I mean if your notion is "they can't know the atmospheric composition" why ferry extremely atmosphere dependent inflatables which can only operate in a narrow window on Earth instead of something a bit more rigid, less pressure sensitive, and with the same level of technology as the interstellar spacecraft, rather than a bag of slightly pressurised gas?
 
If it were Aliens (and I don't believe for one moment it is), I was going suggest that we probably shouldn't be firing missiles at them...

... but then it occurred to me, that maybe the first life to visit from another planet might be their version of a billionaire man-baby grifter, and then it didn't seem so bad.
 
MatskiMonk
If it were Aliens (and I don't believe for one moment it is), I was going suggest that we probably shouldn't be firing missiles at them...

... but then it occurred to me, that maybe the first life to visit from another planet might be their version of a billionaire man-baby grifter, and then it didn't seem so bad.
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I think he has (or they have) already landed.
 
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I think if we were at the stage where aliens had visited and made it clear their intentions were not friendly, then the general population would no longer be in the dark. It would have been announced by now because it would be too bigger a thing to keep concealed.

I think folk are getting their knickers in a twist over the fact that authorities are using the term 'unidentified flying object' and immediately thinking UFO = aliens.

It's much more likely that UFO in this case refers to an airship/dirigible-type drone rather than a balloon-shaped dirigible like the first one that was shot down. 'Balloon' doesn't always best describe a lighter-than-air aircraft.
 
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Famine
Who said anything about flying the interstellar space ships into the atmosphere?


I mean, for starters the supposition here is that these balloons that are amazingly easy to see and obliterate and only operate at high cruise altitude of terrestrial civilian aircraft rather than say any other part of the 60-mile high atmosphere have come from somewhere, and since it seems unlikely they're capable of interstellar travel (or indeed getting any higher than 40,000ft) it appears that the premise is that they have come from the interstellar spacecraft.

Bearing that in mind, why don't the interstellar spacecraft have something... you know... good in the balloon hangar bays instead of... that? I mean if your notion is "they can't know the atmospheric composition" why ferry extremely atmosphere dependent inflatables which can only operate in a narrow window on Earth instead of something a bit more rigid, less pressure sensitive, and with the same level of technology as the interstellar spacecraft, rather than a bag of slightly pressurised gas?
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A balloon probe would be the best probe. You can Literally mix the required gasses required for it to float in atmosphere after doing a atmospheric scan ( by light of course ) and dump it and it will float . Cheap and effective. Allot cheaper and much more adaptable than using a aircraft etc. Plus didn't we use. Parachute with inflatable balls to deliver a rover .. That was our BEST tech , thats their low end cheapo tech. Also I don't even believe in aliens that can travel , Space breaks down your DNA so there's that .
 
The balloons are probably difficult to positively identify, and thus they end up being UFOs. If they were extraterrestrial in origin, I don't think we'd be shooting them down.
 
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Neunundneunzig of them...

Nena joke.jpg
 
MonoTonouS
A balloon probe would be the best probe.
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Aside from being slow, obvious, easy to destroy, subject to the whims of air currents, temperature, pressure, lacking the ability to return to the ship or land...
MonoTonouS
You can Literally mix the required gasses required for it to float in atmosphere after doing a atmospheric scan ( by light of course ) and dump it and it will float
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We can detect the atmosphere of planets light years from here, and we're nowhere near interstellar travel technology. One would hope the very advanced aliens would have cracked that one too before specifically heading here and putting specific craft that cannot operate in any other atmosphere in the Solar System (that we know about) into middling altitudes.
MonoTonouS
Cheap and effective. Allot cheaper
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Nice to know that aliens have money...
MonoTonouS
and much more adaptable than using a aircraft etc.
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Why is a balloon more adaptable than an aircraft? Balloons work... okayish at pressures ranging from about 0.1 to 1atm. We have aircraft which can operate at pressures ranging from ~0 to >1atm, and other vessels that can operate at pressures up to 1000atm.

Our aircraft have adjustable flight surfaces, powered flight, and the ability to hover, none of which are possessed by our balloons (or, apparently, these balloons), and we're technological imbeciles compared to a species that has developed interstellar travel.
MonoTonouS
Plus didn't we use. Parachute with inflatable balls to deliver a rover .. That was our BEST tech
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No, it was just our most efficient tech in terms of what we needed to strap onto it and still be light enough to fire off the top of a rocket but serve the purpose on the other end, while preprogrammed because it takes up to half an hour between seeing what it's doing and seeing its response to a human input back here on Earth. And they were designed to cushion the craft for a crash landing, not to float in the middle of air traffic corridors; it was bubble wrap, not the smegging Montgolfiers.


Anyway, at least Biden's doing something about inflation.
 
UKMikey
Um, Nena did an English version of the song too. That's why it charted so high in the US and UK.
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I've always thought "worry, worry, super scurry" lost something in the translation.
 
The English version is not a translation of the German original so the English version had the freedom to rhyme what it wanted in telling a similar story but... it's so janky and awkward.
 
UKMikey
Um, Nena did an English version of the song too. That's why it charted so high in the US and UK.
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Huh, today I learned. I guess the version I'm most familiar with though is the Goldfinger one thanks to GT3.

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There's apparently audio of the F-16s intercepting the object over Lake Huron:
www.thedrive.com

Listen To F-16 Pilots Intercept The Octagon Object Over Lake Huron

The Viper pilots involved in the incident provide some insightful observations on the mysterious craft that was shot down.
www.thedrive.com www.thedrive.com
 
I don't get why the Lake Huron 'UFO' wasn't approached by an Apache or the like instead of an F-16? I know the object was flying at a hight close to the opperating ceiling of the average helicopter, but it sounds like such a small slow flying object like this was actually pretty dangerous for a fighter jet to be flying so close to. Especially as they were also trying to get a good look at it before it was in pieces.

Even a Reaper drone would have been a better option. Has a operational ceiling higher than the object was flying and can stay in the air at speeds as low as 75 knots.

Fighter planes seem like the worst option for intercepting these objects.
 
TheCracker
I don't get why the Lake Huron 'UFO' wasn't approached by an Apache or the like instead of an F-16? I know the object was flying at a hight close to the opperating ceiling of the average helicopter, but it sounds like such a small slow flying object like this was actually pretty dangerous for a fighter jet to be flying so close to. Especially as they were also trying to get a good look at it before it was in pieces.

Even a Reaper drone would have been a better option. Has a operational ceiling higher than the object was flying and can stay in the air at speeds as low as 75 knots.

Fighter planes seem like the worst option for intercepting these objects.
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To my knowledge, we don't have any Apaches stationed in Michigan and I don't believe there are any in surrounding states either. If I had to take a guess, it was likely a range and time thing to get the equipment here. There are units that fly Blackhawks and Lakotas around the Great Lakes though and while they aren't attack helicopters, they probably could've been scrambled to at least investigate.

The Michigan Air National Guard does operation A-10s and they are more than capable of engaging in air-to-air combat (they even have two confirmed air-to-air kills in Iraq). They also operate Reapers out of Battle Creek.
 
TheCracker
I don't get why the Lake Huron 'UFO' wasn't approached by an Apache or the like instead of an F-16? I know the object was flying at a hight close to the opperating ceiling of the average helicopter, but it sounds like such a small slow flying object like this was actually pretty dangerous for a fighter jet to be flying so close to. Especially as they were also trying to get a good look at it before it was in pieces.

Even a Reaper drone would have been a better option. Has a operational ceiling higher than the object was flying and can stay in the air at speeds as low as 75 knots.

Fighter planes seem like the worst option for intercepting these objects.
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Jets can fly pretty slow:


But more seriously the jet imaged in the article has a Sniper targeting pod (the one landing anyway, the big image on top shows a plane carring a Litening pod). TGP's are typically used for air to ground missions but also have air to air modes. They can visually ID targets from miles away, much further than you can with your eyes and can also see beyond the visible spectrum of light.

A second issue is training. Fighter pilots train to do intercepts. Helicopter and drone pilots don't. While a balloon intercept probably isn't a typical training exercise, engaging slow flying targets wouldn't be completely out of scope. The F-16 in particular is also a fly by wire plane that will automatically attempt to avoid flying beyond its envelope. These intercepts have been a learning experience for the Air Force/NORAD and they likely want to stick to what works. So far the AIM-9X has been the go to weapon for downing these objects, so they're likely going to keep using them. That they are not using AIM-9M's suggests to me that targeting and tracking can be an issue, so that's likely going to curtail intercepts using A-10's or AH-64's that can't carry 9X's.

Lastly, jets are fast and well armed. If you don't know what you're chasing is capable of then you'll probably want to reach it quickly and also be able to defend yourself if needed. That's going to be a lot more difficult for a helicopter or drone.

All and all, we're making do with what we have. Perhaps a dedicated weapon for use against these objects will be developed, but that's going to take a while. In the meantime jets seem to be working.
 
Liquid
The English version is not a translation of the German original so the English version had the freedom to rhyme what it wanted in telling a similar story but... it's so janky and awkward.
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Definitely should have gone with the more direct translation.

 
Exorcet
But more seriously the jet imaged in the article has a Sniper targeting pod (the one landing anyway, the big image on top shows a plane carring a Litening pod). TGP's are typically used for air to ground missions but also have air to air modes. They can visually ID targets from miles away, much further than you can with your eyes and can also see beyond the visible spectrum of light.

A second issue is training. Fighter pilots train to do intercepts. Helicopter and drone pilots don't. While a balloon intercept probably isn't a typical training exercise, engaging slow flying targets wouldn't be completely out of scope. The F-16 in particular is also a fly by wire plane that will automatically attempt to avoid flying beyond its envelope. These intercepts have been a learning experience for the Air Force/NORAD and they likely want to stick to what works. So far the AIM-9X has been the go to weapon for downing these objects, so they're likely going to keep using them. That they are not using AIM-9M's suggests to me that targeting and tracking can be an issue, so that's likely going to curtail intercepts using A-10's or AH-64's that can't carry 9X's.

Lastly, jets are fast and well armed. If you don't know what you're chasing is capable of then you'll probably want to reach it quickly and also be able to defend yourself if needed. That's going to be a lot more difficult for a helicopter or drone.

All and all, we're making do with what we have. Perhaps a dedicated weapon for use against these objects will be developed, but that's going to take a while. In the meantime jets seem to be working.
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Seems to me that the authorities need to be developing high-ceiling heli-drones armed with sharp sticks for future interceptions.

I mean, $600k for a AIM-9X and a minimum $54k for an hour of two F-16 flights plus the costs of whatever else was scrambled in support. It's not a cost effective way of balloon control.
 
TheCracker
Seems to me that the authorities need to be developing high-ceiling heli-drones armed with sharp sticks for future interceptions.
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I'd like to think someone brainstorming ideas for cost savings. Using T-7's, the Air Force's new jet trainer, with a dedicated low cost missile sounds like a relatively easy and quick solution for the lower flying targets.
TheCracker
I mean, $600k for a AIM-9X and a minimum $54k for an hour of two F-16 flights plus the costs of whatever else was scrambled in support. It's not a cost effective way of balloon control.
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One thing to consider is that weapons have shelf lives. So while that AIM-9X did cost $600,000 to get, it didn't cost $600,000 to fire necessarily. Had this incident not happened the missile very well could have sat in storage for years until it was unusable and tossed out.
 
I still can't get over the insinuation that aliens would travel a million billion miles to Earth on spacecraft astoundingly more advanced then ours and then the bean counters would step in.
 
Tornado
I still can't get over the insinuation that aliens would travel a million billion miles to Earth on spacecraft astoundingly more advanced then ours and then the bean counters would step in.
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I mean, the vogons are a bunch of bureaucrats so it might check out.
 
UKMikey
Neunundneunzig of them...

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Neunundneunzig is sooo last week!
It's achtundneunzig now ;)
Joey D
Huh, today I learned. I guess the version I'm most familiar with though is the Goldfinger one thanks to GT3.

============

There's apparently audio of the F-16s intercepting the object over Lake Huron:
www.thedrive.com

Listen To F-16 Pilots Intercept The Octagon Object Over Lake Huron

The Viper pilots involved in the incident provide some insightful observations on the mysterious craft that was shot down.
www.thedrive.com www.thedrive.com
Click to expand...
Was the Pentagon worried about the octagon, or was the octagon worried about the Pentagon 🤔
 

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