High Speed Drifting

[d3p0]

I know what slip angle is, and how it functions, but it seems this whole "Speed Drifting" activity has a weak foundation and so should be ignored.

Which what I intend to do, and would suggest others do as not to skew one's view of what's fast and what just plain looks cool.


There are various 'styles' of driving, but the fastest style is no style at all.

I hope that makes sense..

Have you seen how Schumaker drives? That's a definite style.

 

[Swift]

I know what slip angle is, and how it functions, but it seems this whole "Speed Drifting" activity has a weak foundation and so should be ignored.

Which what I intend to do, and would suggest others do as not to skew one's view of what's fast and what just plain looks cool.


There are various 'styles' of driving, but the fastest style is no style at all.

I hope that makes sense..

I couldn't possibly disagree more. Driving, at our level, is all about style. Sure, it's about speed for some people and about showing off for others. But every single driver has their own style. Period. For you to ignore that is simply being ignorant for the sake of ignorance.

 

[d3p0]

IMO

Speed drifting = 4 wheel sliding

Faster than show drifting = MR drifting

 

[HammerShot]

I couldn't possibly disagree more. Driving, at our level, is all about style. Sure, it's about speed for some people and about showing off for others. But every single driver has their own style. Period. For you to ignore that is simply being ignorant for the sake of ignorance.

OMG A post with some common sense in it. Leave it to swift to put it down right.

 

[maggkrabar]

IMO

Speed drifting = 4 wheel sliding

Faster than show drifting = MR drifting

excuse me, but ... wrong I think.

4 wheel sliding = just sliding
Faster than show drifting = Speed drifting

sliding is not a drifting, it is? Where gone THE CONTROL?

TankSpanker
...It can increase exit speed, and marginally lengthens straights by allowing acceleration out of a turn earlier.
Speed/Race drifting is just as much of a test in control, it takes just as much skill, it's just the delivery that differs.

Cannot say it better 10x 👍

Have you seen how Schumaker drives? That's a definite style.

Have you seen how Senna drives? That's a definite style.

many racers, many styles. All they are/was THE BEST.

huh.. where gone "TOUGE Drifters"? HammerShot why?

 

[d3p0]

Speed Drifting = 4 Wheel drifting = Total control

Speeding = Faster than show drifting = Misnombre = Not fast

 

[HammerShot]

excuse me, but ... wrong I think.

huh.. where gone "TOUGE Drifters"? HammerShot why?

I felt it was neccessary to change the title. It was misleading to some people and we don't need any more of that. This topic needed to take some better direction. Touge and Race Drifting are different types of racing. Lets keep this one about Race Drifting. There is already one on Mountain Racing. If we want to talk about touge lets revitalize this one. All around Mountain Racers

 

[maggkrabar]

I felt it was neccessary to change the title. It was misleading to some people and we don't need any more of that. This topic needed to take some better direction. Touge and Race Drifting are different types of racing. Lets keep this one about Race Drifting. There is already one on Mountain Racing. If we want to talk about touge lets revitalize this one. All around Mountain Racers

Is that good direction to You?

 

[Sloth]

I couldn't possibly disagree more. Driving, at our level, is all about style. Sure, it's about speed for some people and about showing off for others. But every single driver has their own style. Period. For you to ignore that is simply being ignorant for the sake of ignorance.

Kinda saw this one coming.. it is the drifting forum after all...

I'm not ignoring it.

I'm just suggesting that if you're going for speed, style is not the way.

I mean sure you can take slip angle into account, but you can't even see it.

Like that post says, optimum slip angle for the rear tires pivoting on the front should be no greater than 2-3 degrees unless using radial tires, which add a bit more flexibility and allow for/require a bit more angle.

Using a protractor and a piece of paper (or this and MSPaint), you will notice that four degrees is not alot.

Which brings me to something else.

A common misconception is that tires are at their highest level of grip while just barely slipping.

To state such a thing is an oxymoron. The two sides cancel eachother out.

However, a car's highest level of cornering speed is attained when the rear tires are just barely slipping out and 'pushing' the car through the turn.

The steering wheel is turned in the direction of the turn itself. Not countersteering

Doing this is essentially using your rear tires to turn the car and accelerate at the same time, and although that added resistance on the rear tires doesn't exactly do much for the acceleration properties of the car, it increases cornering speed to what only few would consider a large degree.

*pokes head out window and notices the abundance of females in his city*

*refers to the city that he so unwillingly chose to live in as "his" city*


I'm sure all you DT_C fanboys have heard the term, "steer with the rear".

Well.. that's what it means.


Set the cornering line with the wheel and just hold it with the accelerator, unless it's a complex corner in which steering adjustment is required. But even then, the goal remains the same; hold that slip angle throughout the entire turn.

If you still don't understand what I mean, buy the Denso Sard Supra, oil change it up to 495ps or whatever, and blitz around the Infineon Stock Car course on R2 or R3's for a while.

The first thing you will notice is that the car drives like it's on frickin' rails, but as you become more demanding, you will notice a slight tendency to understeer.

This is where slip angle comes in.

And then you ask yourself, "how do you drift a race car that understeers?"

The answer is, you don't.

Again, however, the car has enough power to convince the rear tires to slide in all directions. Also, the front of the car tends to tuck-in while braking, so you can do all your straightline braking done in a short amount of time, then use this to sort of 'toss' the car into the corner then use the accelerator to hold a slight angle and keep the tires working on their limits.

Using this technique, you will find that the car magically corners faster and easier while accelerating.

Note: The time between accelerating and braking in virtually all situations should be no greater than the amount of time it takes to move your foot from the brake pedal to the gas pedal (and vice versa).


Now, Swift, or Anthony (Tony?), as I should more formally refer to you as. I have been using "the best style is no style at all" philosophy, taught to me by Bruce Lee himself, for quite some time now and in many many applications, and I must say; it's easy to follow (a la Occam's Razor) and works very well.

If you feel like questioning my opinion I challenge you to a traditional Black vs. White Arcade Car best lap duel.

I came into GT4 with the intention of being a 1 on 1 racer, fighting against anyone that steps in my direction, although my interests in drifting and the people that do it have never waned. It's just that so many people have no idea of what they should consider 'good' drifting.

I've spent more time in free run and arcade mode than I have actually playing the game.

580 days and almost two real life months and the game is only 9.8% complete.

Please do not take personal offense to this, as it is merely the most efficient defense I have next to farting out pages and pages of technical information.

The intention of this post was to inform people about the racing application of slip angle (or drifting if you would rather call it [just please understand the difference between a bit of slip and full out drifting- otherwise, this is a wasted effort]) and to influence the settling of a slight conflict of opinion in a more subtle manner.

My most sincere hopes that it was, for the most part, on-topic.

Thanks for reading.

-S.F.

 

[HammerShot]

Response to Sloth: Well first off, thanks for making a more descriptive post about your position and theories. The short bursts weren't settling anything. So let me try to respond to it.

I'm not ignoring it.

Really?

from post #53 it seems this whole "Speed Drifting" activity has a weak foundation and so should be ignored.

I'm just suggesting that if you're going for speed, style is not the way.

I understand what you are saying. However, grip is also a style of racing. Therefore in its own has a style. So I see when you say style you really mean just drifting. Assuming that is what you mean then yes. If going for absolute time using Grip theories will result the fastest times. That is not what I am trying to accomplish, nor are the others. The point of speed drifting is a skewed idea of Exhibitionist Drifting, which is applied generally to Tracks that are set up for Racing. This would have more validity if GT4 had Drift Circuits, but since it doesn't we have to use the same Tracks. Honestly do you think a D1 Event would be held at a Race Track with a Full layout.

To respond to the middle body of your post. That is mostly race theory, which is not my stong point. So I'll save us all the grief of what I think, because I'll likely be wrong anyways. All I can say is that yes there is a difference between a slip angle and a drfit angle. I have no denial about that, however the when comparing the Highest Slip and Lowest Drift there is little difference. I know very well when I am in a Slip or a Drift.

I'll leave the end of the post all to Swift since it is mostly directed towards him. All I will say is that I am sure you didn't learn from Mr. Lee "Himself". Besides not having a style is a style itself.

In closing: I have no issues with you. Some statements were a little vulgar, but hey you are defending your postion. So am I. All said and done lets just get back to First Base and to Driving. 👍

EDIT: Here I made a quick capture of how I am driving now...Link is located in My Video Thread

 

[Sloth]

*sigh*

Alright.


"Issues" are not an object.

I just want to bloody well settle this in combat.

Talk is cheap.


Edit: A few OnTopic replies.

Really?

Yes.

Honestly do you think a D1 Event would be held at a Race Track with a Full layout.

No. It's usually just gymkhana.

I know very well when I am in a Slip or a Drift.

It should be pretty obvious.

I'll leave the end of the post all to Swift since it is mostly directed towards him. All I will say is that I am sure you didn't learn from Mr. Lee "Himself".

I read it in a book. It was a quote of something he said in Chinese.

EDIT: Here I made a quick capture of how I am driving now...Link is located in My Video Thread

I'll be sure check it out.

 

[Hachi Roku]

The way I see it speed drifting is trying to get the same angle you would in a "show" drift run while attempting to keep the time as close as possible to your best possible time in that car.

I will use "show" techniques when learning to slide a car as speed drifting right away will usually result in the grass/wall

Once I can drift a car well at lower speeds I will then try to decrease my laptime while still maintaining angle for extra challenge.......I like to watch the speedo as I take a corner while gripping and watch for the lowest speed I drop down to. I will then try to achieve as much angle as possible while not dropping lower than that speed.

If a given corner is much much slower while drifting than gripping I will compromise on angle before I will compromise on speed (usually by attempting braking drift into the corner and regaining traction at the apex, then maintaining a small angle after the apex but not breaking the rears loose.

As a generalisation for people who don't understand I would asy that most show drifters aim for angle of the car BODY to the track while most speed drifters aim for high angle of the FRONT WHEELS (you can actually be full oppostite lock while pointing straight ahead on the track)

for me though I like to get as much CAR BODY angle as is possible before the tires start to "bite" and the car loses speed.

Intrestingly it is actually possible to drift some corners at more than 90 degrees (i.e. going backwards) if you aim for pure angle.

 

[maggkrabar]

...
If you feel like questioning my opinion I challenge you to a traditional Black vs. White Arcade Car best lap duel.
...
-S.F.

Great post Sloth... 10x 👍 You did it like a real racer...

Is it a touge duel? It is I hope...

 

[nk4e]

Just Swift close this , I feel like a war is coming. I know this is a good topic but we cannot discuss due to some things

 

[HammerShot]

Just Swift close this , I feel like a war is coming. I know this is a good topic but we cannot

Actually I feel the exact opposite. As far as I am concerned the situation is resolved. Any war was already fought. I don't know about Sloth but I am done with the debate. I underderstand his points, and will not contest them at all. I hope he is willing to accept my postion. I am not here to make enemies or to tell people they are right or wrong. I just want to enjoy all aspects of driving(Well except NASCAR I won't even go there).

 

[Ryen49]

Actually I feel the exact opposite. As far as I am concerned the situation is resolved. Any war was already fought. I don't know about Sloth but I am done with the debate. I underderstand his points, and will not contest them at all. I hope he is willing to accept my postion. I am not here to make enemies or to tell people they are right or wrong. I just want to enjoy all aspects of driving(Well except NASCAR I won't even go there).

@ YOU. Thanks for not going into nascar.. nobody here wants to here about that 👍

 

[Swift]

Now, Swift, or Anthony (Tony?), as I should more formally refer to you as. I have been using "the best style is no style at all" philosophy, taught to me by Bruce Lee himself, for quite some time now and in many many applications, and I must say; it's easy to follow (a la Occam's Razor) and works very well.

If you feel like questioning my opinion I challenge you to a traditional Black vs. White Arcade Car best lap duel.

I came into GT4 with the intention of being a 1 on 1 racer, fighting against anyone that steps in my direction, although my interests in drifting and the people that do it have never waned. It's just that so many people have no idea of what they should consider 'good' drifting.

I've spent more time in free run and arcade mode than I have actually playing the game.

580 days and almost two real life months and the game is only 9.8% complete.

Please do not take personal offense to this, as it is merely the most efficient defense I have next to farting out pages and pages of technical information.

The intention of this post was to inform people about the racing application of slip angle (or drifting if you would rather call it [just please understand the difference between a bit of slip and full out drifting- otherwise, this is a wasted effort]) and to influence the settling of a slight conflict of opinion in a more subtle manner.

My most sincere hopes that it was, for the most part, on-topic.

Thanks for reading.

-S.F.

Heh heh, Man. Now that is truly funny. Is it just me it did Bruce Lee have a style all his own.

It is a veritable impossibility to have "no style". I think you're misinterpretting what he said. He also said "be like water". Water certainly has style, but it depends on what the water is doing.

I totally understand all the technical things that you stated, but that has nothing to do with style. I don't care who you are and what you have, you can't do anything perfectly. And that's what you're describing. Bruce Lee wouldn't have "no style" he would adapt his style to overcome his oppenent. Think about that for a minute and come back to me.

 

[Sloth]

Yes. Flowing energy. I read that.

"I don't care who you are and what you have, you can't do anything perfectly."

That's a very bold thing to say, and for most part, you may be right.

But now we're getting into style again and my emphasis on this conversation was form.

If you would like to discuss style, I would gladly respond to it on this thread.

I know you've read it before, so reading it again should be patchy review, which is ok.

I am still very interested to see you prove that your racing 'style' is more perfect than mine, since we all invariably have one..

 

[nk4e]

Yes. Flowing energy. I read that.

"I don't care who you are and what you have, you can't do anything perfectly."

That's a very bold thing to say, and for most part, you may be right.

But now we're getting into style again and my emphasis on this conversation was form.

If you would like to discuss style, I would gladly respond to it on this thread.

I know you've read it before, so reading it again should be patchy review, which is ok.

I am still very interested to see you prove that your racing 'style' is more perfect than mine, since we all invariably have one..

style...why would you have style when your not facing an opponent that you don't even know his/her style
I battled Swift before, I didn't know what he 'style' he had.. I used my own within the course given.

 

[burnout060]

Wasn't I visciously raped earlier this year by everyone when I brought up race drifting?

Didn't we already cover ALL of this?

Am I better at race drifting than all of you?



The answers are... yes.

(this is a mostly kidding post, btw)

EDIT: I tried finding the thread where we discussed all of this already, but then I remembered we deleted all the responses because it turned into a HUGE AND GIANT WAR BETWEEN MYSELF AND EVERYONE ELSE IN THIS COMMUNITY. Apparently people don't like the thought of having faster lap times while drifting. I still use racing tires for all my cars, and love it. If anyone wants to try out my racing drift settings, they're in the Depot.

 

[d3p0]

Originally Posted by HammerShot

Honestly do you think a D1 Event would be held at a Race Track with a Full layout.



No. It's usually just gymkhana.

No, it's usually karting tracks.

 

[maggkrabar]

BTW

Friendly challenge is a challenge only ... not a war.

 

[Sloth]

style...why would you have style when your not facing an opponent that you don't even know his/her style
I battled Swift before, I didn't know what he 'style' he had.. I used my own within the course given.

There is only one fastest style.

Taking the same car on the same track and competing with lap times is a battle of form.

Don't you see?

My challenge was a peaceful one and I made that very clear.

My intentions are no worse than anyone else who shares information accordingly.

This is why this hasn't turned into a flame war yet, and it never needs to.

If the challenge is a bother, I could settle it through PM's, but the slip angle part remains on-topic.

I enjoy conversing with everyone here.

It is very informative and has lately remained very calm and peaceful.

I am very impressed with the majority of people I see posting.

Just be thankful I'm not a mod

No really- I absolutely look forward to this post continuing to be an industrious source of what I consider a very constructive and entertaining read.

 

[nk4e]

There is only one fastest style.

Taking the same car on the same track and competing with lap times is a battle of form.

Don't you see?

My challenge was a peaceful one and I made that very clear.

My intentions are no worse than anyone else who shares information accordingly.

This is why this hasn't turned into a flame war yet, and it never needs to.

If the challenge is a bother, I could settle it through PM's, but the slip angle part remains on-topic.

I enjoy conversing with everyone here.

It is very informative and has lately remained very calm and peaceful.

I am very impressed with the majority of people I see posting.

Just be thankful I'm not a mod

No really- I absolutely look forward to this post continuing to be an industrious source of what I consider a very constructive and entertaining read.

That didn't have to do anything with my post

 

[burnout060]

There is only one fastest style.

Taking the same car on the same track and competing with lap times is a battle of form.

Don't you see?

My challenge was a peaceful one and I made that very clear.

My intentions are no worse than anyone else who shares information accordingly.

This is why this hasn't turned into a flame war yet, and it never needs to.

If the challenge is a bother, I could settle it through PM's, but the slip angle part remains on-topic.

I enjoy conversing with everyone here.

It is very informative and has lately remained very calm and peaceful.

I am very impressed with the majority of people I see posting.

Just be thankful I'm not a mod

No really- I absolutely look forward to this post continuing to be an industrious source of what I consider a very constructive and entertaining read.

Please don't hit the "Enter" key after each sentence. There's enough writing already in this thread, and the spacing between every sentence is not helping.

Just a thought.

Originally Posted by HammerShot

Honestly do you think a D1 Event would be held at a Race Track with a Full layout.



No. It's usually just gymkhana.

No, it's usually karting tracks.

There's a drift event being held at Lime Rock here in CT. It's a full race track that runs all different kinds of cars. I also went to a drift event in PA at Beaverun, that was a Kart track. The Kart Tracks are good practice for beginners, but if you want a real challenge, drift events like the one at Lime Rock are where it's at.

Too bad my car won't be ready in time

 

[d3p0]

Um, a lot of the D1 rounds take place on karting tracks. You should tell those guys to check out lime rock, I'm sure they'd appreciate the challenge.

 

[maggkrabar]

I've just got some golds with low slip angle braking drift. I used e-brake at B license 3 ... Just testing fast drift speed. Not bad.

 

[burnout060]

I've just got some golds with low slip angle braking drift. I used e-brake at B license 3 ... Just testing fast drift speed. Not bad.

The general "objective" of race drifting is using the same exact lines through corners as you would with grip racing, but having the benefit of controlling your oversteer when going too fast for the corner. That's what I aim for when I race. I've also found that drifting helps when passing people, because it's much easier to take unconventional lines at the same speed if not faster, allowing you to go to the inside or outside of opponents on corners very easily.

 

[Swift]

Please don't hit the "Enter" key after each sentence. There's enough writing already in this thread, and the spacing between every sentence is not helping.

Just a thought.

I like that thought. Good idea. Just helps to save space...

 

[Sloth]

Now someone just made up 'race drifting', which would imply that I haven't posted anything useful.

Sorry for wasting precious screen space, guys..