Historic Group C/GTP - Pre-Season Tyre Test

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ERacer
Hello All,

Took the Mazda, Toyota and Jag out again, dialed in the HP/Kg ratios correctly this time.

787B @ 805Kg / 815Hp
88C-V @ 850Kg / 906Hp
XJR-9 @ 894Kg / 951Hp

Gearing = 350 for all three cars
Tires = RM/RM with tire wear set at strong

All three had to pit after lap five.

After 10 laps, the difference in total time between the fastest (Mazda) and the slowest (Jaguar) was 14 seconds. I'm inclined to agree with Neil that perhaps the Jag could use a bit less weight, and would further agree that someone else verify that opinion. Preferably someone that did not choose the Jag in this series. Alternatively, perhaps the Mazda should have an HP reduction.

Will test the Sauber C9 and Nissan R92C tomorrow. I don't have the Pug nor the R89C.

Does everyone feel that 10 laps is long enough? Should the test be 20? How do you like Grand Valley?

Thanks for helping out 👍

ERacer
Click to expand...

Phil!

What times were you getting in each car?
It will help me when I do this testing in the morrow!
If the Mazda is STILL too fast compaired to the others, then maybe only it needs changes.
But I still say the Jag neds maybe 2% less weight, just to bring the handling into line with the rest.

Neil
 
So help us the gods of OLR!"

"So say we all!"

Here, here :cheers:

Actual total times

Jag - 17'15.946
Toyo - 17'09.177
Mazda - 17'01.481

Thanks Neil 👍

edit: Neil!! Its almost 4am over there, isn't it??!!
 
Yeah!

But hey? It's Friday night!

No early rise in the morning.(not unless it happens all by it's self, that is!!;) )

So, up and around into the early hours is not a problem for this cat lover.

lol
 
Homeric!! :bowdown:

I love to prowl the night as well, but all I can boast is 3am last Friday. Not tonight though.
 
You likey the little LRS prayer?

Must have been watching too much Battlestar G., if that's at all possible?

Plus! beer 'n' herbal painkiller makes for an almost Homer'esk experience. Not unlike eating 'The merciless peppers of Quetzlzacatenengo, grown deep in the jungles primeval by the inmates of a Guatemalan insane asylum.' :)
 
Yes, long live the LRS!!

I believe one of those asylum inmates may have flown over the cookoo's nest and settled quite nicely and discretly in the UK where he joined GTP and made lots of new friends. Yes? :D

I'm on my 8th Mike's Hard Lemonade. Had to stop testing after two Mike's - I'm just not that good... yet.

What time does the sun creep up over there this time of year? 6ish?

Hey, I think the Driver's Lounge opens in about an hour. Breakfast? I'll buy. Some scrambled eggs with merciless peppers of Quetzlzacatenengo :D
 
hey guys, I will not be able to post here till thursday the 14th, starting tomarrow, so I will not be able to post for a while. Tyre King, could you please inform TS, C-H-A-R-G-E-R, and Earth?
 
Ok RACECAR. Enjoy the time off!

ERacer
 
Driver: xjr-9
Team: Team GBR
Car: Jaguar XJR-9
Car Number: 16
Sponsor:Red Bull

I will not be able to respond to posts from next Friday to Sunday.

xjr-9
 
RACECAR
hey guys, I will not be able to post here till thursday the 14th, starting tomarrow, so I will not be able to post for a while. Tyre King, could you please inform TS, C-H-A-R-G-E-R, and Earth?
Click to expand...

nil problemo! Have fun whatever you are doing!👍

Neil
 
Finished a clean lap in both the Sauber C9 and Nissan R92CP. Gearing for both at 350 with RM/RM tires and tire wear set to strong. Both needed to pit after lap 5, especially the C9.

Total time for C9 = 16'52.722
Total time for R92CP = 16'56.149

Both very stable. Both able to fully accelerate out of corners at the apex with no "fish-tailing" (unlike the Jaguar). Perhaps HP reductions are in order for both. Anyone else have any numbers to report?

Please note, these times are not indicative of the fastest total time possible for me. I'm simply trying to run a clean 10 laps at the same intensity level for all the test vehicles. As long as the level of intensity is consistant throughout each race and for each test car, then the numbers are still relevant and comparable.

I will be going back again to re-test the first three (Jag, Toyo and Mazda).

After today, I'm off to rejoin my crew at Infineon as my sponsor keeps reminding me that I have a quali to run in the GTPLMS. :)

ERacer
 
:) Excellent job.....looks like you are getting it figured pretty well.

I recall that your scheduled race is 24 laps at Sarthe II, so your test samples should at least be based on half that distance or 12 laps. That way you can double the time difference for each car to determind what would likely be the gap at the 24 lap distance.

Based on the data you have now, if the pit stops required for each car is equal for the 24 lap distance.....the Jaguar will be at least 30+ seconds behind at race end. The Nissan R92 will be 8-10 seconds behind the Sauber after 24 laps.


I'd guess slowing the Mazda down a bit and speeding up the Jaguar would be the thing to do initially. Then work on balancing the cars in the middle of the pack.

I'm doing some testing now myself.....💡 👍
 
Updated test results for Grand Valley Speedway Test (fastest-to-slowest):

Toyota 88C-V (850Kg/906HP) - final time 16'47.344

Sauber C9 (928Kg/945HP) - final time 16'52.722

Mazda 787B (805Kg/815HP) - final time 16'54.530

Nissan R92CP (900Kg/958HP) - final time 16'56.149

Jaguar XJR-9 (894Kg/951HP) - final time 17'19.036

All cars set at RM/RM (strong tire wear), 350 gearing, pitted at end of lap 5.

Based on these settings, at this course, the Nissan R92CP, Sauber C9 and Mazda 787B match up well.

The C9 demonstrated better handling and stability than the R92CP which, in turn, had better handling than the 787B, but the C9 also had the worst tire wear pitting at yellow/orange. The R92CP and 787B both pitted with rears at only yellow.

The acceleration of the 787B is lightening fast against its peers, especially in the curves. Doesn't matter what passing line you take; inside or outside, the 787B just zooms right by the other cars. Just don't push it too far.

That leaves the Toyota and Jaguar. Handling wise, they are at opposite ends of the stability spectrum. Tire durability wise, they trade places again. You drive the Toyota with a sense of confidence, knowing you can keep pushing harder and harder. Best of all, it will not disappoint you. If it weren't for the terrible long-term tire wear, this Minolta would be picture perfect.

Pushing the Jag? Like trying to convince your wife/girlfriend that you really need a new, bigger HDTV for the living room - its a delicate process of coaxing her along which ultimately leads to a give-and-take sacrifice. Sure, the Jag may twitch her tail faster than a college cheerleader on camera, but will spend less time in the pits. So, there's your give-and-take.

All in all, these settings make for an interesting match up at Grand Valley. 👍

How is everyone else doing?

ERacer
 
I'll test some at Grand Valley also since it would take less time than Lemans.....How many laps did you run? What settings for the Ai's?

I'm assuming 10 laps: Your settings RM/RM 350 gear Tirewear 'Strong' (no TCS) / Ai's 8 on RM's

Toyota Minolta (850kg/906hp)
1:44.465
1:35.608
1:33.686
1:33.275
1:58.538 (Pit In)
1:42.895 (pit out)
1:32.679
1:33.182
1:32.308
1:34.442
16:21.078

Opinion on Toyota
Good balance and managable traction....tirewear is fairly consistant over 5 laps. I wouldn't change anything here yet.

______________________________________________________________________________________
Nissan R92CP (900kg/958hp)
1:43.310
1:34.933
1:33.713
1:33.493
2:01.151 (pit in) tires quickly off at beginning of 5
1:42.481 (pit out)
1:32.236
1:32.936
1:33.501
1:34.517 tires off beginning of lap
16:22.312

Opinion on Nissan R92CP
Has good power but has lots of understeer which hampers cornering speeds, tires wear earlier than Toyota and really slows pit in lap dramatically. Use lower weight and reduce HP accordingly to improve tire life. P/W seems OK

My suggestion is 873 kg / 929 hp =1.064 PW Should improve tire wear slightly

__________________________________________________________________________________
Jaguar XJR-9
(894/951)____(804/904)____(876/932)
1:44.920_____1:44.441_____1:44.343
1:34.326_____1:35.604_____1:34.526
1:35.128_____1:34.864_____1:35.661
1:36.273_____1:35.523_____1:35.459
2:02.539_____1:58.125_____1:59.577 (pit in)
1:44.184_____1:44.0xx _____1:43.653(pit out)
1:35.385_____1:34.306_____1:34.384
1:35.381_____1:34.302_____1:34.993
1:35.370_____1:34.506_____1:35.046
1:40.580_____1:34.735_____1:36.431
16:44.086____16:30.469____16:34.073

Opinion on Jaguar:
22+ seconds off pace....I think a reset of weight to a power ratio based on lowest possible weight may help reduce tire wear and improve traction. Reduce power to match weight....has the worst traction and tire wear so far. Reduction in W/P also needed.

My suggestion is 804 kg / 904 hp = 1.124 PW Try that at Grand Valley
 
ERacer
Updated test results for Grand Valley Speedway Test (fastest-to-slowest):

Toyota 88C-V (850Kg/906HP) - final time 16'47.344

Sauber C9 (928Kg/945HP) - final time 16'52.722

Mazda 787B (805Kg/815HP) - final time 16'54.530

Nissan R92CP (900Kg/958HP) - final time 16'56.149

Jaguar XJR-9 (894Kg/951HP) - final time 17'19.036

All cars set at RM/RM (strong tire wear), 350 gearing, pitted at end of lap 5.

Based on these settings, at this course, the Nissan R92CP, Sauber C9 and Mazda 787B match up well.

The C9 demonstrated better handling and stability than the R92CP which, in turn, had better handling than the 787B, but the C9 also had the worst tire wear pitting at yellow/orange. The R92CP and 787B both pitted with rears at only yellow.

The acceleration of the 787B is lightening fast against its peers, especially in the curves. Doesn't matter what passing line you take; inside or outside, the 787B just zooms right by the other cars. Just don't push it too far.

That leaves the Toyota and Jaguar. Handling wise, they are at opposite ends of the stability spectrum. Tire durability wise, they trade places again. You drive the Toyota with a sense of confidence, knowing you can keep pushing harder and harder. Best of all, it will not disappoint you. If it weren't for the terrible long-term tire wear, this Minolta would be picture perfect.

Pushing the Jag? Like trying to convince your wife/girlfriend that you really need a new, bigger HDTV for the living room - its a delicate process of coaxing her along which ultimately leads to a give-and-take sacrifice. Sure, the Jag may twitch her tail faster than a college cheerleader on camera, but will spend less time in the pits. So, there's your give-and-take.

All in all, these settings make for an interesting match up at Grand Valley. 👍

How is everyone else doing?

ERacer
Click to expand...
Nice times there Phil!
However I have a 16'52.236 in the Jag!
Rqd settings, pitting on L5 (Fronts green/yellow, rears orange/red and nearly unusable)
NO TCS!

The real shocker, and I really mean it! Is the Pug!
Again rqd settings but the top speed upped as it hits the rev limiter as std. Think it was @ 430kmh
Again NO TCS (Arrg! Work of the Devil, stone 'em for using it!!)

An absolutely amazing 16'21.367, a repeat testing with the top speed @350 like the others produced a 16'25 too.

It is very easy on the tyres (6 laps on the rears = orange), very grippy in the corners and throttle steers great.
Once I learned how to anticipate the gear-box problems, and got it into my head to change gears AT/fractionally before the apex, so the forced off throttle period falls where you would be coasting anyway......
It all fell into place!

Testing the Sauber now, but like the Jag, 4.5 laps is about the point where it starts spinning up too much, and starts to be difficult to drive in a straight line.
Update: got a 16'41.2 in the Sauber Merc

Gonna re-test the Jag maybe now, or maybe in the morning.
Neil
 
Tyre King
Nice times there Phil!
However I have a 16'52.236 in the Jag!
Rqd settings, pitting on L5 (Fronts green/yellow, rears orange/red and nearly unusable)
NO TCS!

The real shocker, and I really mean it! Is the Pug!
Again rqd settings but the top speed upped as it hits the rev limiter as std. Think it was @ 430kmh
Again NO TCS (Arrg! Work of the Devil, stone 'em for using it!!)

An absolutely amazing 16'21.367, a repeat testing with the top speed @350 like the others produced a 16'25 too.

It is very easy on the tyres (6 laps on the rears = orange), very grippy in the corners and throttle steers great.
Once I learned how to anticipate the gear-box problems, and got it into my head to change gears AT/fractionally before the apex, so the forced off throttle period falls where you would be coasting anyway......
It all fell into place!
Click to expand...

Thanks Neil! Looks like you've been busy too. Great Jag time! Sounds like you are really pushing hard. I'm in Sonoma at Infineon at the moment wrapping up first day time trials for GTPLMS in the Pesca. But, now I'll have to fly back to GVS tomorrow morning and try to match your time in the Jag :D

Incredible news about the Pug! So, there is hope yet for the 905. Hope someone will drive her in the series. 👍 I may have to break the piggy-bank and buy the Pug. :D

ERacer
 
Gt3Emperor
I'll test some at Grand Valley also since it would take less time than Lemans.....How many laps did you run? What settings for the Ai's?

I'm assuming 10 laps: Your settings RM/RM 350 gear Tirewear 'Strong' (no TCS) / Ai's 8 on RM's

Jaguar next (tomorrow)
Click to expand...

Yes. Your assumptions are absolutely correct. Nice times btw. Let me know what you think of the Jag.

Thanks for helping out 👍

ERacer
 
When do you guys wanna get going with this series? I'm more than happy to give you an extra week of testing if you need it. If you don't need that long, just tell me how much you need.

I don't mind waiting for you guys. besides, i'll have forza 2 to keep myself occupied :D
 
nitro_2005
When do you guys wanna get going with this series? I'm more than happy to give you an extra week of testing if you need it. If you don't need that long, just tell me how much you need.

I don't mind waiting for you guys. besides, i'll have forza 2 to keep myself occupied :D
Click to expand...

Several of us in this series are also either participating, or will be participating, in other series such as the GTPLMS 👍 Personally, I would like to coordinate the start of your series so that it begins on the same week that the GTPLMS runs the qualifying laps. Quali runs take less time than actual race. The next GTPLMS quali laps will start on *gets calendar* June 18th.

But I'm good to go whenever you say so. I think we need to test all the cars on one more track, perhaps.

What's going on with your PS2?

ERacer
 
k cool

well, i have a ps2, but i only get the chance to use it once a week at my dad's every tuesday. so tbh i can't really do any proper testing.

hope that's not a problem.
 
Yeah! I agree with Phil.

I am participating in the LMS, and will be participating in the next season of JGTC too.

It would be easier if things were co-ordinated, so the 'work-load' isn't too great.👍

Neil
 
Neil - 17'03.620 in the Jag this morning. :ouch: Still can't touch your time. Have to fly back to Sonoma and the GTPLMS time trials 👍

Any suggestions for another track to test on? Or, do you think we're okay to go?
 
I've tested the Toyota, Nissan R92CP, and the Jaguar and my observations along with my suggestion of how to balance the three are in my post on page 8

I've tested the Jaguar with the new P/W and it is pretty close....tire wear cured and traction much improved with these changes, if anyone would care to check for their own results.👍

I'll test a few more after I finish the Sonoma session.
 
Gonna test this in the morrow, too tired to drive tonite.

See yawl then!

Neil
 
Gt3Emperor
Opinion on Jaguar:
22+ seconds off pace....I think a reset of weight to a power ratio based on lowest possible weight may help reduce tire wear and improve traction. Reduce power to match weight....has the worst traction and tire wear so far. Reduction in W/P also needed.

My suggestion is 804 kg / 904 hp = 1.124 PW Try that at Grand Valley
Click to expand...

Gt3E,

Thanks for posting your results. 👍 I'm surprised that the Jag's tire wear performed so poorly in your trials. I agree that the car suffers from bad traction, but I'm surprised that your results also seem to indicate poor tire durability at 894Kg/951HP settings.

I'll try your settings out tomorrow and report back.

Thanks again 👍

ERacer

Edit: I couldn't wait - I went back to GVS and tried the Jag at your settings of 804Kg/904HP. The car fish-tailed a bit more for me at those settings which slowed me down a bit. The final time for the 10 laps was no better than the final time at previous settings. However, at your settings, the Jag did glide past the competition effortlessly which was a welcome change for me, however the twisty parts of the course were more difficult - for me at least.

So, I changed the P/W ratios a bit and came up with 876Kg/932HP (P/W ratio = 1.064). This made the Jag more stable and improved my final time to 16'53.044. Still had to pit end of lap 5 with orange rears.

Try 876Kg/932 HP for the Jag and let me know what you think. 👍

ERacer
 
Okay....I'll try it, but I'll be busy tomorrow with another challenge so I don't know when.

Based on your test and feel, how close to being compatible with the others does that setting make the Jag in your opinion? Is it there, or does it still need help? You don't want the tires to last any longer than the others.....they just don't need to go off any sooner than the others..

I think the difference in tire wear is kind of related to how hard you're pushing it...if I were to slow down to a 1:36 to 1:37 per lap pace, the tires would last a little longer. I drove at a pace hard enough to see how close I could keep pace with the Toyota and R92CP. It was still 22 seconds slower even though I pushed just as hard driving all three. Driven equally hard the tire wear and traction was noticably poor compared to the others.
 
nitro_2005
k cool

well, i have a ps2, but i only get the chance to use it once a week at my dad's every tuesday. so tbh i can't really do any proper testing.

hope that's not a problem.
Click to expand...

No problem. Better once a week than none a week. :) So, sounds like you'll be administering this series and not actually racing in it, right?
 
Gt3Emperor
Okay....I'll try it, but I'll be busy tomorrow with another challenge so I don't know when.

Based on your test and feel, how close to being compatible with the others does that setting make the Jag in your opinion? Is it there, or does it still need help? You don't want the tires to last any longer than the others.....they just don't need to go off any sooner than the others..
Click to expand...

At 876Kg/932HP the Jag now feels competitive. The other cars are still faster but that's okay. At this setting the Jag should:

1) remain competitive at most medium-distance races
2) show superior tire wear at long-distance races
3) fall behind on shorter distance races

Only the start of the series will tell for sure :) 👍

ERacer
 
Grand Valley 10 laps 'Strong' Tire wear, No aids, RM's
Jaguar XJR-9
(894/951)____(804/904)____(876/932)
1:44.920_____1:44.441_____1:44.343
1:34.326_____1:35.604_____1:34.526
1:35.128_____1:34.864_____1:35.661
1:36.273_____1:35.523_____1:35.459
2:02.539_____1:58.125_____1:59.577 (pit in)
1:44.184_____1:44.0xx _____1:43.653(pit out)
1:35.385_____1:34.306_____1:34.384
1:35.381_____1:34.302_____1:34.993
1:35.370_____1:34.506_____1:35.046
1:40.580_____1:34.735_____1:36.431
16:44.086____16:30.469____16:34.073

OK ..these are the numbers for the W/P combinations shown at the top. Either combination puts it closer in time and tire wear, but it's going to need a P/W over 1.064 to run quick enough to match the other cars. That's the bottom line. Every car isn't equal just because the P/W's match. It's going to need around a 1.13 or higher.

I think 849 kg/ 951 hp could be closer. Let's face it, the car needs a different plan to compete.....everybodys testing seems to be proving that. :crazy:
 
ERacer
No problem. Better once a week than none a week. :) So, sounds like you'll be administering this series and not actually racing in it, right?
Click to expand...
yeh, that's pretty much my role. :)
 
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