Honda call for team budget caps in F1

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Honda call for team budget caps in F1

By Jonathan Noble Thursday, December 27th 2007, 22:52 GMT

Motor racing's governing body is being urged to consider the radical idea of a budget cap for teams in Formula One as a way of stopping costs escalating out of control.

With the FIA having outlined a plan to limit the use of wind tunnels and other aerodynamic development as their latest step to limit costs, following a 10-year engine freeze, Honda Racing chiefs are calling for a more unconventional regulation.

They think that the FIA should introduce a cap on team budgets, rather than limit the teams on what they can develop on their cars.

Honda Racing CEO Nick Fry recently held discussions with new team principal Ross Brawn about the future direction of F1, and both feel that a budget cap is a realistic answer to solving the cost issues in F1.

"Ross and I both think that an overall budget cap is something that should be seriously investigated," Fry told autosport.com. "What we see at the moment, if you look at the accounts of any of the UK F1 teams, is that the costs keep going up.

"So far what we have been successfully doing is moving money from one area of the team to another. Money is certainly moved from engines to aerodynamics, because that is the next best area of performance advantage.

"We support a lot of the proposals on the aero restrictions, but the fear is that that money will merely be diverted elsewhere. It will go to driver salaries or engineer salaries, or some other part of the car, but will not necessarily reduce the total bill that a team has to pay.

"So rather than chasing our tails, we think we should be considering an overall budget cap. Although it will be difficult to monitor, we think it can be achieved."

Brawn added: "We do support sensible efficiencies on cost and cost restraint. The difficult thing is applying it so it doesn't advantage or disadvantage one team over another, and that's the thing we need to focus on.

"The concept of a budget cap a couple of years ago was thought to be fairly ludicrous. But if you look at the weaknesses of the counter-arguments and alternative solutions, you wonder whether budget-capping isn't the one you ought to find a solution for. It gives everyone the opportunity they want to try and achieve the objective."

Although there are obvious difficulties in monitoring a team's budget to ensure they did not find ways of getting around such a cap, Brawn thinks the challenges are no harder than the FIA will find in trying to impose a future limit on wind tunnel or CFD work.

"I could pick holes in the aerodynamic argument," he said. "How do you police CFD? You have a processor and a number of people working at their workstations in the CFD department, but if you've got somebody off-site quite legitimately developing the code and then they put that enhanced code into your system, are they part of your CFD process or not?

"I'm not saying a budget cap is the easiest thing to apply, but is it any more difficult than the other things we're going to do? And intrinsically or conceptually, it's a nicer thing because it's an efficiency approach.

"How fast can you make this car go for 100 million a year? How efficient can you be? And it's up to the teams to decide whether they spend 50 million on the driver and 50 million on the car; or one million on the driver and 99 million on the car. It would be fascinating to have that challenge."

Brawn felt that the movement of staff from one team to another would leave teams wary of openly breaching the budget caps, because a 'whistle-blower' could expose what was happening.

Fry admitted it would take a lot of work to specify what was in a team's 'capped' budget and what was not.

"Some of it looks easy on the face of it, but you have to think about what is included and what is not included," explained Fry. "Are your marketing people included? How do you account for resources that are shared with a car manufacturer?"

Personally I think it might be interesting to see how efficient the teams can be, but overall it's just dumb.

If Honda are so worried about using too much money, then maybe they should just use less money? It's not like they are addicted to developing and can't stop spending money in it.

Whenever a team starts to talk about regulating testing or money or windtunnel usage etc, they are just putting a big sign on their foreheads that reads "We are incompetent".
 
Whenever a team starts to talk about regulating testing or money or windtunnel usage etc, they are just putting a big sign on their foreheads that reads "We are incompetent".

Wow, that’s a huge call and I totally disagree. I’d really like you to explain what you mean by that and why it is bad for teams to want a better return on their investment…
 
Personally I think it might be interesting to see how efficient the teams can be, but overall it's just dumb.

If Honda are so worried about using too much money, then maybe they should just use less money? It's not like they are addicted to developing and can't stop spending money in it.

Whenever a team starts to talk about regulating testing or money or windtunnel usage etc, they are just putting a big sign on their foreheads that reads "We are incompetent".
I don't think so. The FIA have been looking for ways to cut costs for years; I'm surprised somene didn't come up with this initiative sooner. Toyota spent over $400 million in 2006 alone; MF1/Spyker and Toro Rosso spent maybe $75 million in comparison. Half the reason why the little guys aren't competitive is because half the outcome of the race has been determined by who has the bigger budget (Toyota being the exception). A budget cap - like the salary cap used in professional football to stop one team signing all the best players - makes sense because not only would it cut costs without cutting engine developent (sure, it would be restricted, but at east it wouldn't be frozen outright), but it would mak the sport more competitive.
 
Actually, I'm up for that idea, it would give the backmarkers a shot to get into the midfield, at least. It would also be nice to see what each team can do with a given capital or money limit 👍
 
Actually, I'm up for that idea, it would give the backmarkers a shot to get into the midfield, at least. It would also be nice to see what each team can do with a given capital or money limit 👍

But how will the FIA control how much the team really uses?
 
Because Toyota didn't bother hiding them. :p


This is, IMO, by far a better idea than actually restricting development in specific areas. At the same time, is raises problems: What about outsourcing? Ferrari can use, say, one of the CFD centers belonging to FIAT, while McLaren can task Mercedes to improve the engine - without it counting on the budget. And what do you do with customer-engined cars? Subtract a piece of the budget since they don't develop an engine?

The idea raises tons of questions. As appie mentioned - how exactly do you control the expenses of such a huge organization? Engineers can be encouraged to "work" at home for a non-budgeted reward from a sponsor, while various projects might be outsourced to partners and parent-companies...
 
Wow, that’s a huge call and I totally disagree. I’d really like you to explain what you mean by that and why it is bad for teams to want a better return on their investment…

What I mean is that the companies that pay for the teams and salaries and stuff, don't complain about the money they spend (except for Renault). Looks to me like Nick Fry/Ross Brawn are looking for any excuses.

I don't remember hearing Ferrari or McLaren/Mercedes asking for budget cuts.

Heck, testing limits were put in place because McLaren & co. wanted to take Ferrari's advantage of their private track away from them.
 
I don't remember hearing Ferrari or McLaren/Mercedes asking for budget cuts.

Why should they? They have the experience, the people, the reputation, the drivers. Isn't it logical the backmarkers are asking for budget cuts?
 
they are just putting a big sign on their foreheads that reads "We are incompetent".
"Yes, we want to level the playing field so that money wont matter as much and competence will. If this goes through, Force India will even be beating us!"

Yes, im sure Honda is thinking like that.
 
Hmm.... this should be interesting....

Anyways, why haven't anyone thought of this earlier? Its like one of the greatest idea and yet, why not implement it? Sure, I know that mipuumal said that Nick Fry/Ross Brawn are looking for any excuses, but they are speaking for all of the low budget teams in F1. 👍 The FIA can only do so much on restricting on engines and CFD, but surely the better teams can use more money on something else. With a budget cap, at least they are restricted to only doing fewer adjustments on their cars.

appie17: There is a way of ensuring how it can be controlled. Much like the FIA scrutineering the F1 cars, they can have each team represent someone who checks on their budgets and reports to the FIA. If anything seems out of place, the FIA has the right to call the team at fault for questioning and if they fail to comply with the rules (means they over budget) the FIA can enforce some sort of penalty such as grid positions, disqualifications or even a fine. Well thats my idea at least. :)
 
why haven't anyone thought of this earlier?

The idea of budget caps has been thrown around for years. It’s never caught on though because just about everyone with money likes to spend it, so only those without it get behind the idea.
 
appie17: There is a way of ensuring how it can be controlled. Much like the FIA scrutineering the F1 cars, they can have each team represent someone who checks on their budgets and reports to the FIA. If anything seems out of place, the FIA has the right to call the team at fault for questioning and if they fail to comply with the rules (means they over budget) the FIA can enforce some sort of penalty such as grid positions, disqualifications or even a fine. Well thats my idea at least. :)

But you can still ask a sponsor to pay the "Ferrari institute for computerized aerodynamics" a couple of millions, or ask Mercedes to develop the engine a bit at the AMG center instead of the official HQ.
 
The bigger teams will simply get more for their money, the difference will still exist.

Absolutely. What worries me about this is that the teams with bigger budgets generally already have the infrastructure to build more competitive race cars.

BMW-Sauber, for example, have the best wind tunnel and super-computer in the sport, and with budget caps it essentially freezes the status quo as far as who has access to what resources.
 
Absolutely. What worries me about this is that the teams with bigger budgets generally already have the infrastructure to build more competitive race cars.

BMW-Sauber, for example, have the best wind tunnel and super-computer in the sport, and with budget caps it essentially freezes the status quo as far as who has access to what resources.

Yes but technology does get cheaper over time. If this kind of idea went into play, I'd expect all teams to be at roughly the same stage in 10 or so years.
 
Teams will never be at the same stage unless they use the same technology for everything, ie, copy everyone else. Of course also the teams will never be at a same stage because of the difference in drivers, put Kimi and Yamamoto in the same car and Kimi will out do Yamamoto by 2 secs still.

It's an ideology that teams will be in the same 'class', in reality it will never happen. Far too many factors.
 
Teams will never be at the same stage unless they use the same technology for everything, ie, copy everyone else. Of course also the teams will never be at a same stage because of the difference in drivers, put Kimi and Yamamoto in the same car and Kimi will out do Yamamoto by 2 secs still.

It's an ideology that teams will be in the same 'class', in reality it will never happen. Far too many factors.

Besides, that is not F1 is all about. F1 really is about technological advancement in racing. If we want close action racing, there is already A1GP and GP2. In F1, there would always be the weaker team. Also yes, I agree with what everyone else just said. Maybe there is no way that the FIA can do any budget caps in F1. Its just a too big thing to deal with....

But yeah, the point it, its never really gonna happen is it?
 
Absolutely. What worries me about this is that the teams with bigger budgets generally already have the infrastructure to build more competitive race cars.

BMW-Sauber, for example, have the best wind tunnel and super-computer in the sport, and with budget caps it essentially freezes the status quo as far as who has access to what resources.

True. Renault must be eating their hearts out following the one-tunnel rule, as well, while Ferrari are probably joyful.
 
Sure, I know that mipuumal said that Nick Fry/Ross Brawn are looking for any excuses, but they are speaking for all of the low budget teams in F1. 👍

Honda aren't exactly a low budget team, my point is that if Honda had another '04 type season last year they wouldn't be whining.

If a one armed driver entered Formula One and demanded that every driver must chop one of their hands off because they have more resources than he does, should they comply? :)

Sure, that might be extreme but it's still the same thing basicly. You are asking teams to handicap themselves.

If a person looses their eyesight at age 40, they will be more handicapped than someone who has been blind for their whole life. And while I admit that a lot of Formula One is about adapting to new rules, this sounds a bit silly.

I still say that Nick Fry and Ross Brawn aren't sincere in this budget thing and are just grasping at straws.
 
''Honda call for team budget caps in F1''

Translation: Honda's bank account is running low!

Why do you such thing? You shouldn't underestimate Honda. Honda is a big company with a lot of money. Money isn't really what their worried about, but only there performance on the track.
 
Yes but remember Appie, Honda had no title sponsor bringing in the money quite like how BAR did.

I'd imagine they ran up quite a substancial financial loss over the last season.
 
Bee
Yes but remember Appie, Honda had no title sponsor bringing in the money quite like how BAR did.

I'd imagine they ran up quite a substancial financial loss over the last season.

LOL!!
If Honda lost $200 million last year it would be like me losing $50 at a casino!!

I don't want technology stifled but I'd like to see more than 2 teams fighting at the front & this might not be the way do do it but some way needs to be found!
 
A $200 million loss is a $200 million loss, regardless of who you are, if your leaking that much money, something is going terribly wrong.

I wouldn't be all suprised if Honda continues their search for a title sponsor but one that has a greener programme of their own..
 
F1 engineer #1: Damn it, we need more money to keep up.
F1 engineer #2: We have none.
F1 engineer #1: I know, what shall we do?
F1 engineer #2: The others have the money...
F1 engineer #1: Hmm. Sounds like a problem indeed.
F1 engineer #2: I got it! Let's call for a budget cap so they can't use it and we'll get away with this!
F1 engineer #1: You're the man. I'll tell Nick and Ross.

Possible, no?
 
''Honda call for team budget caps in F1''

Translation: Honda's bank account is running low!
''Honda call for team budget caps in F1''

Translation: Super Aguri has more money than Honda!

Will ya quit translating?

We get the point. And as others discussed, yes - Honda, most probably, lost huge amounts of money on this year's EarthCar campaign. And Super Aguri can't have more money than Honda - they're quite dependent on Honda's support.
 
Will ya quit translating?

We get the point. And as others discussed, yes - Honda, most probably, lost huge amounts of money on this year's EarthCar campaign. And Super Aguri can't have more money than Honda - they're quite dependent on Honda's support.

:lol:👍
 
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