Honda Insight + Hybrid Chatter: What the CR-Z should have been all along - Post 288

[Jim Prower]

Let's face it. We need to invent force fields so we can pull off Fusion.

 

[homeforsummer]

Actually, I'd forgotten that I'd created this thread a while back. Any hydrogen/electric/nuclear fuels discussion should probably be continued there so we don't stray too far off topic

If they create a Type R, it may be 200hp, but given the current hardware... doesn't look like it.

Well the Auto Express article mentioned earlier seems to think that the petrol engine will give about 150bhp with the tuning the Type R is expected to get, and the electric motor will be upgraded to give about 50bhp in addition, so it could have about 200bhp... but the AE article doesn't fill me with a lot of confidence given what I know about their history of "scoop" articles. They claim the pictures are "exclusive images of how the new model is hotting up" but all they've done is photoshopped the normal car with a black bonnet and the wheels off the current Civic R - it's hardly factory spyshots or anything.

 

[niky]

Give me an R18/R20 engine (since they want to emphasize efficiency, it's a better choice than the heavier, wider and more powerful K20) with the same lightweight assist package...

In fact, the R18 in a Civic already gives mid-8 0-60 mph times (high 8 0-100 km/h), with an assist motor, that could get close to 7 flat. Still not "GTi" territory, but fast enough.

Whoa. STOP RIGHT THERE. Please refer to this thread before you start throwing language around like that.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=123960

Och... ye caught me!

Okay, it's a hot hatch...

Or is that a liftback?

Of course, I have said that I don't actually subscribe to the classic, restrictive definition of the word sports car... and do note:

· Made for agile and exhilarating driving

Of course, how exhilirating it will be remains to be seen.

 

[homeforsummer]

Okay, it's a hot warm hatch...

As mentioned before. Think MINI Cooper rather than Cooper S Works.

 

[niky]

Remains to be seen. A Cooper is good for 0-100 km/h in about 9 seconds, whereas the S is good for around 7 and a half. Wouldn't be surprised if this were somewhere in-between... maybe around 8 flat thanks to the electric-assist torque. Probably not "hot", but not entirely lukewarm.

 

[homeforsummer]

And? The CR-Z is actually pretty good

Honda CR-Z

Test date 11 March 2010 Price as tested £19,999

What is it?

The CR-Z is an unlikely hero for Honda, the car that could restore at least a little of its sporting image after its withdrawal from F1 and the axing of both the NSX supercar project and the S2000.

The CR-Z is a sports hybrid coupe, the first car with this type of powertrain to get a six-speed manual gearbox. Its styling has strategic cues from the CR-X of the early 1980s, but it also looks modern. In fact, what's appealing about this coupe is that it looks like nothing else on the road; it's instantly recognisable as the CR-Z.

Sitting on a slightly shorter but wider Insight platform, the CR-Z uses a wheelbase that’s shrunk by 115mm, while it has also lost 30mm in height and is 44kg lighter.

The CR-Z does not just employ a revised version of the Insight’s platform, its Integrated Motor Assist (IMA) system and a modified Insight rear suspension set-up. Wanting to enhance performance, engineers replaced the Insight’s 1.3-litre petrol engine with the 1.5-litre i-VTEC motor from the Jazz, then mated that to a revised six-speed manual transmission lifted out of the European-spec 1.8-litre Civic.

The combined power output of the CR-Z’s hybrid system is 122bhp at 6000rpm, while combined torque is 128lb ft at 1500rpm. Our Japan-spec car offered a combined 58mpg. Oh, and by the way, the CR-Z still employs nickel metal hydride batteries.

What's it like?

Slip into the driver’s seat and you'll sense how much lower you sit in the CR-Z than in an Insight. There’s plenty of headroom for driver’s up to 194cm, but forget the rear seats, which would struggle to hold a 12-year old. Interior trim and quality are superior to the Insight's, and the instrumentation boasts more design flair. Flatten the rear seats and you create 401 litres of luggage space, enough for a couple of suitcases or two golfbags.

The IMA system offers three driving modes: sport, which uses the electric motor to aid acceleration, and normal and econ, which retard throttle response to reduce fuel consumption and lower emissions.

The first thing you notice is the CR-Z’s beefy bottom-end torque. With maximum torque on tap from just 1500rpm, the coupe jumps from rest and reaches 60mph in 9sec, as you clear the 6300rpm redline in second. It's noticeably faster than the Insight.

Keep the engine spinning between 4000rpm and 6000rpm and the CR-Z will reward any right-foot extension, while the specially tuned throatier exhaust adds to the all-new sporty hybrid experience.

After trying all three modes, we found ourselves leaving the CR-Z in sport; it offers quicker response at both low and high speeds and suits the characteristics of this car perfectly.

With world-beating manual gearboxes like those in the S2000, NSX and Civic Type R, the CR-Z had a lot to live up to. And thanks to some inspired revision on the European Civic’s gearbox, the CR-Z’s six-speed delivers deliciously short throws and a firm, precise linkage action.

Honda paid special attention to steering too. It's superbly weighted, has excellent feel and turns in on a penny. Combined with enhanced rigidity throughout the chassis and bodyshell, a significant revision to the torsion bar set-up on the rear suspension is another reason why the car handles and rides so well. The CR-Z is stiff but compliant.

The CR-Z’s main braking system is hydraulic, and it uses the regenerative braking only as an ‘assist mechanism’. The result is refreshing; unlike the current crop of hybrids, which deliver a somewhat synthetic feel, the CR-Z offers sure-footed stopping power every time.

Should I buy one?

Honda is convinced that it has launched this coupe at the right time, and it may have a point. With its low-slung, sporty looks, high interior quality, good performance and fuel economy, great gearbox and low price, the CR-Z should spice up interest in hybrids, and force a wider cross-section of the motoring public to pay attention to this type of vehicle. Watch out for the high performance Mugen version in 2011, too.

Peter Lyon

Source: Autocar

Worth noting that price wise, Autocar tested the top spec model. There'll be an S for about £16k, a Sport for around £18k and the GT is the £20k model, according to a section in last week's magazine.

To summarise, it looks like it's decently torquey, sounds good, has a proper Honda snappy gearbox, great steering, a good chassis, a better ride than the Insight and good brakes.

Interesting how all the comments on the story have changed from "it's crap" to "it's a little too expensive" now that someone's actually driven it and told everyone it's actually good. It's still no performance car, but then Honda never said it would be - they said it'd be fun. And it appears to be fun, so I reckon they've succeeded.

Looking forward to reading more reviews though, but given that Autocar and Evo are my bibles, I'm already 50% of the way there to making up my mind.

 

[niky]

The big question, of course, will always be how much better it could have been if it had been a non-hybrid with the 1.8 engine instead. Glad to hear that Honda are finally getting the steering right again.

Seeing as how the pricing parallels that of the Civic 3-door, this is good news... performance seems to be similar to the Civic 1.8, and front seat space in these new GE-platform cars is better than before... so you shouldn't feel squashed in there as you would were it based on the previous generation Fit chassis.

Remains to be seen what dollar pricing will be. It'll have to start well under $20k in the US for people to take it seriously.

Too brief a review for me... I'd like to hear what Evo will say...

Even more... I'd like to try it myself.

 

[homeforsummer]

Seeing as how the pricing parallels that of the Civic 3-door, this is good news... performance seems to be similar to the Civic 1.8, and front seat space in these new GE-platform cars is better than before... so you shouldn't feel squashed in there as you would were it based on the previous generation Fit chassis.

I doubt space is an issue, unless you're desperate to fill your car with people. Lower-slung cars have to be really low usually to lack space, and that isn't the case with this.

Too brief a review for me... I'd like to hear what Evo will say...

Even more... I'd like to try it myself.

Agreed, though it's only a first drive as opposed to a full review. I think it's due out in the UK in May ish, so full reviews here will start coming around then. But it's definitely on my "to drive" list also.

 

[FoolKiller]

The big question, of course, will always be how much better it could have been if it had been a non-hybrid with the 1.8 engine instead.

Actually, seeing it has three modes I am curious if the performance numbers and the fuel efficiency numbers we were given are all from the same mode. Or should you not even have a hybrid when in sports mode? It isn't a proper review test, so it is hard to tell what they meant by combined mileage.

The main issue I have with this review is the line, "It's noticeably faster than the Insight." Um, great. Can I get a "sporty" compact car comparison please? Just looking at their stats, I don't see anything that would make me give up my Rabbit in favor of this.

I can see who this will appeal to, but unless the actual pleasure of driving it is far better than this article makes it sound I won't be in that group.

Side note: Rear seat space is disappointing. Now dealing with rear-facing child seats I can say that anyone hoping to have a child needs to consider rear seat space. My brother's Prius couldn't place the seat in the middle and allow him to drive comfortably. My wife's Yaris can, but those in the front better be under 5'9". My Rabbit has a couple of inches to spare with a six footer up front. This is definitely not for new parents trying to maintain a sense of youth in their car. This is only something I have recently learned to have to consider in a car.


As for price: It is as I expected. I can see it being problematic as the primary demographic that should be interested (under 25) will have trouble affording one of these new. Unless the online currency converter I used is inaccurate the various models, based on homeforsummer's price figures, will possibly range from $24,000-$30,000. That's tough on a lot of people that should want this car.

 

[niky]

RE: Child seats: That's why I'm glad I'm just 5'5"... breed for smallness. You save money on food that way.

You can't directly convert UK prices. The range HFS gives is 16-20k pounds. The Civic range in the UK goes from 16-22k pounds... with the 1.8 that America gets starting at 18k pounds.

That points at the CR-Z starting at around $16k... depending on whether the UK pricing is inclusive of hybrid tax breaks or not, and whether it already reflects the UK's ridiculous vehicle tax.

 

[FoolKiller]

RE: Child seats: That's why I'm glad I'm just 5'5"... breed for smallness. You save money on food that way.

It just sticks out to me because before we put the seats in my wife kept telling me I would need to get a four door. Then when we actually installed them I can't wear a baseball cap in her car and sit up front at the same time now (I'm 5'8") and have to have the seat back completely vertical. She is fine in the driver's seat at about 5'5". I didn't change a single adjustment in my car and I no longer hear a word about needing a four door.

You can't directly convert UK prices. The range HFS gives is 16-20k pounds. The Civic range in the UK goes from 16-22k pounds... with the 1.8 that America gets starting at 18k pounds.

That points at the CR-Z starting at around $16k... depending on whether the UK pricing is inclusive of hybrid tax breaks or not, and whether it already reflects the UK's ridiculous vehicle tax.

I guess the best way to tell is comparing another car. In the US the Insight ranges from $19,800-$21,300 ($23,100 with nav system). So the sporty hybrid at $24,000 and up didn't sound too far off.

My converter is placing that at around £13,175-£14,175.

And you mentioned it is similar to Civic Si prices, which are in the $22,00-$24,000 range. Not as bad, but still prevents a chunk of people, considering my price range at that age was $15,000-$17,000.

 

[homeforsummer]

Actually, seeing it has three modes I am curious if the performance numbers and the fuel efficiency numbers we were given are all from the same mode. Or should you not even have a hybrid when in sports mode? It isn't a proper review test, so it is hard to tell what they meant by combined mileage.

The main issue I have with this review is the line, "It's noticeably faster than the Insight." Um, great. Can I get a "sporty" compact car comparison please? Just looking at their stats, I don't see anything that would make me give up my Rabbit in favor of this.

I think I've mentioned it more than once, but the car you can most easily compare the insight to is the MINI Cooper. Not the S, just the normal Cooper.

It's slightly more expensive by UK prices, but it has similar power, similar performance, slightly better fuel economy, crap rear seat and boot space and is (you presume) similarly fun to drive.

As for how the figures were calculated, the general speculation is that both the performance data and the economy data was taken in Normal mode. Not Sport, nor Eco. I doubt the performance will change much in sport (just the way it's delivered) but the economy should jump up in Eco, as it does in the Insight, Prius, and many other things that have an Eco mode.

If people are still looking at the raw performance figures though they're still missing the point. Fun, not fast. Miata, not Corvette. MINI, not Jaguar. Et cetera.

Anyway, I expect Autocar will do a full review in the next few months. We'll get a better idea of both performance and economy there. With any luck, they'll have one as a long termer. Their Insight doesn't go below 45mpg even in city driving.

Side note: Rear seat space is disappointing. Now dealing with rear-facing child seats I can say that anyone hoping to have a child needs to consider rear seat space.

Refer to my MINI comment above, but generally, I doubt this is a car being aimed at people with kids.

RE: Child seats: That's why I'm glad I'm just 5'5"... breed for smallness. You save money on food that way.

Yup, 5'8" here, so never any trouble fitting in any car

You can't directly convert UK prices. The range HFS gives is 16-20k pounds. The Civic range in the UK goes from 16-22k pounds... with the 1.8 that America gets starting at 18k pounds.

That points at the CR-Z starting at around $16k... depending on whether the UK pricing is inclusive of hybrid tax breaks or not, and whether it already reflects the UK's ridiculous vehicle tax.

I don't think we subsidise Hybrids any more. There used to be a £1500 handout around the time of the original Prius and original Insight, but I think that's long gone. So the price you see is the price we'll likely get.

But yeah, you can usually translate £ directly to $. A car that costs £16k here will usually cost no more than $16k over there.

I expect the quoted price is a vague estimate of the "on the road" price after tax, registration etc.

My converter is placing that at around £13,175-£14,175.

The Insight in the UK ranges from £15,600 to £18,300. In other words, your top end model is a grand cheaper than our bottom model! Your bottom model around £2.5k less than ours.

Using that logic, your Insight should start at around $22k with the current exchange rate. Ish. There do seem to be large fluctuations model to model.

 

[niky]

Yup... The Civic I was comparing it to was the 1.8, not the Si... so prices should parallel the 1.8, roughly... which means US prices shouldn't start at over 20k...

Strange on the Insight... I can only figure that there's some tax dynamic at work there that we don't know about... all signs actually pointed at it being much cheaper than it ended up in $$$s.

Of course, UK Civics are built on different lines and with different bodies from the US.

 

[homeforsummer]

Yeah, thinking about it I don't know what I was actually doing there. Or I do, I was ignoring everything that was said (including by myself) about the currency differences and did a direct pounds-to-dollars translation. I think your price is probably closer.

And yeah, UK Civics are built in the UK.

 

[FoolKiller]

Yup... The Civic I was comparing it to was the 1.8, not the Si... so prices should parallel the 1.8, roughly... which means US prices shouldn't start at over 20k...

Oops, don't know how I did that. I had it stuck in my head you said Si.

Strange on the Insight... I can only figure that there's some tax dynamic at work there that we don't know about... all signs actually pointed at it being much cheaper than it ended up in $$$s.

Of course, UK Civics are built on different lines and with different bodies from the US.

There are too many differences to accurately judge, I think.

Plus, as I learned last time I bought a car, the actual price should only be considered after you count in all the add-ons you want to make the car what you want it to be.

I will wait for the US pricing to judge it too harshly, but rough estimates right now seem to suggest that it should be premium priced for their target audience. That might not be a bad deal after taking into account any tax benefits of a hybrid.

 

[homeforsummer]

I picked up the current copy of the Autocar magazine the other day to see if they could add anything on the CR-Z to that of the article on their website. And they did - the article in the magazine is a lot longer. It's still not definitive as it's a first drive rather than an all-out road test, so as yet the performance and fuel figures are still manufacturer estimates rather than their own ratings.

I'll paraphrase a few noteworthy parts. UK members I'd urge to grab a copy if you're interested, and for anyone who can't get hold of the magazine and you're interested, I might be able to scan it in and PM you.

• The car apparently looks better in the metal and on the road than it does in pictures or a motor show hall
• Significantly lower driving position than the Insight
• Significantly better interior quality than the Insight
• 1.5 Engine from the Jazz (not a re-worked Insight 1.3) with Integrated Motor Assist, revised 6-speed manual from the Euro Civic
• Fantastic gearshift quality
• Electrically assisted steering is "superbly weighted, offers excellent feel and turns in crisply"
• Tyres specially developed for the car to give best mix of performance and economy
• Fully hydraulic brakes - regeneration only cuts in to assist, as opposed to when you simply lift off the gas. So apparently the brakes feel very progressive, unlike most hybrids.

Interestingly, in their specification panel they compare the CR-Z with VW's Scirocco 2.0 TDI. It's over £2k cheaper than the VW, just under a second slower to 60 (10.1 vs. 9.3), has a similar top speed (124 vs. 127), achieves slightly better combined fuel economy (56.5 vs. 55.4) and weighs almost 200kg less.

I'd not thought of the Scirocco as a rival but when you compare them like that they're actually quite similar. And the CR-Z starts to make a lot more sense.

Regarding economy - I'd expect the VW to be better on the motorway, as that's where diesels excel. Low revs, long distances. The CR-Z on the other hand, being a hybrid, will most likely improve upon the VW in town. Autocar seem to average around 50mpg even in London in their long-term Insight, and given that the CR-Z is carrying around less flab it might even better that.

 

[Jondot]

They've done pretty well to get 124 out of the Jazz's 1.5. Just shows what improved aerodynamics can achieve.

 

[homeforsummer]

It's worth noting that the 1.5 is an engine not on sale in the UK, and the unit used is from the JDM version. It's probably a bit meatier than the 1.4 we get in the UK, at the very least.

I'm struggling actually. Before the CR-Z is released I want to have a go in a comparable Honda to see what benefits it offers. The CR-Z crosses so many boundaries though. Do I test a Jazz because it's on the same platform and is compact and light? Or do I go for an Insight, because it's another hybrid? Or do I go and test a diesel Civic, which offers better performance and comparable economy for less money, but isn't as much of a drivers car? (Or, do I go to a second-hand dealership and test a grand's worth of 1.5, early to mid nineties Civic to see how far we've come, or not?).

I can't drive them all otherwise the dealer will think I'm taking the mickey...

 

[FoolKiller]

You could just wait for the CR-Z to arrive and test drive it. There will probably be a waiting list when they first come out, so it isn't as if you will be going to buy one on day one based on a test drive of something different now.

 

[homeforsummer]

It's not that, it's more that I want to give myself some kind of reference point to how well the car drives. The closest I've come to it in terms of small, fun cars (apart from my MX5, I guess) is a MINI Cooper, and it's been a good three or four years since I drove one of those. Having a go in a similar Honda might allow me to see where the improvements are. In other words, whether it just feels like any other Honda, or whether it's a bit special.

 

[niky]

It's not that, it's more that I want to give myself some kind of reference point to how well the car drives. The closest I've come to it in terms of small, fun cars (apart from my MX5, I guess) is a MINI Cooper, and it's been a good three or four years since I drove one of those. Having a go in a similar Honda might allow me to see where the improvements are. In other words, whether it just feels like any other Honda, or whether it's a bit special.

Best bets? Compare it to the Scirocco, the Mini One Diesel and the current and previous Honda Fit 1.5s. And a Civic hatchback. The current Fit is a bit of a softy, but the Civic hatch shares some floorpan and is tuned more for sportiness, so should provide a half-way indicator of what the CR-Z might feel like if it were a traditional "hot warm hatch".

The disappointing thing is it's not much faster than it is... but we haven't seen real-world acceleration tests, yet, and I'm betting it might go quicker, unless there's some drivetrain preservation logic in the software that prevents "launching".

Top speed is nice, certainly better than the cars it's based on. If it's the "1.5" mill, then the difference is mainly in tuning. The 1.3/1.4 makes about 100 ponies, the 1.5 makes 120. It's a good motor, with lots of pep in the top-end, but with a rather flat midrange. It certainly feels stronger at the top of its range than the previous "115 hp" 1.5, but I haven't driven them back-to-back.

 

[Jondot]

It's worth noting that the 1.5 is an engine not on sale in the UK, and the unit used is from the JDM version. It's probably a bit meatier than the 1.4 we get in the UK, at the very least.

I'm struggling actually. Before the CR-Z is released I want to have a go in a comparable Honda to see what benefits it offers. The CR-Z crosses so many boundaries though. Do I test a Jazz because it's on the same platform and is compact and light? Or do I go for an Insight, because it's another hybrid? Or do I go and test a diesel Civic, which offers better performance and comparable economy for less money, but isn't as much of a drivers car? (Or, do I go to a second-hand dealership and test a grand's worth of 1.5, early to mid nineties Civic to see how far we've come, or not?).

I can't drive them all otherwise the dealer will think I'm taking the mickey...

Tricky. It'd be interesting to have a comparison to a Jazz, simply to see what changes they've managed to make from the same bits. But on the other hand I'd say a Civic would offer the closest levels of enjoyment as it hasn't been produced for people called Ethel. As for the Insight, don't bother. It's been produced on the cheap to eek out MPG and little else, so I don't think it'll come anywhere near. I could be wrong, of course.

 

[Eric.]

I keep seeing the name "Insight" and instantly thinking CR-Z...Which was making me double check when the Autocar article says ~9s 0-60 and then HFS was comparing the Insight to the Scirocco he used 10s 0-60.

 

[homeforsummer]

Best bets? Compare it to the Scirocco, the Mini One Diesel and the current and previous Honda Fit 1.5s. And a Civic hatchback. The current Fit is a bit of a softy, but the Civic hatch shares some floorpan and is tuned more for sportiness, so should provide a half-way indicator of what the CR-Z might feel like if it were a traditional "hot warm hatch".

I've been meaning to have a go in the MINI actually as I've seen it as a rival all along.

The disappointing thing is it's not much faster than it is... but we haven't seen real-world acceleration tests, yet, and I'm betting it might go quicker, unless there's some drivetrain preservation logic in the software that prevents "launching".

Top speed is nice, certainly better than the cars it's based on. If it's the "1.5" mill, then the difference is mainly in tuning. The 1.3/1.4 makes about 100 ponies, the 1.5 makes 120. It's a good motor, with lots of pep in the top-end, but with a rather flat midrange. It certainly feels stronger at the top of its range than the previous "115 hp" 1.5, but I haven't driven them back-to-back.

I expect the midrange thing will be cured by the electric motor. I didn't see anything in the article that suggested it was anything other than a good engine.

Tricky. It'd be interesting to have a comparison to a Jazz, simply to see what changes they've managed to make from the same bits. But on the other hand I'd say a Civic would offer the closest levels of enjoyment as it hasn't been produced for people called Ethel. As for the Insight, don't bother. It's been produced on the cheap to eek out MPG and little else, so I don't think it'll come anywhere near. I could be wrong, of course.

The main motivation for wanting to include the Insight is simply because it's another Honda hybrid. It's not exactly a ball of laughs but then I guess that's the attraction in seeing the difference between two apparently similar cars.

I keep seeing the name "Insight" and instantly thinking CR-Z...Which was making me double check when the Autocar article says ~9s 0-60 and then HFS was comparing the Insight to the Scirocco he used 10s 0-60.

Sorry, that's my fault entirely.

The tech data panel compared the CR-Z, not the Insight, to the Scirocco. I wrote "Insight" about half a dozen times in my post and then realised that I was supposed to be typing "CR-Z". I went back and corrected a bunch but obviously forgot that one. I've corrected it now so it should make sense.

But yeah, I have the same problem - I think Insight is a much better name than CR-Z. It comes more easily to mind when thinking of hybrids, and the CR-Z is much more similar to the original Insight than the new Insight is.

As for why Autocar quoted 10 seconds for the CR-Z's 0-60 in the panel, I'm not sure. I thought it was more in the 9s bracket and even the text mentions something similar. 10.1 seconds is apparently just plucked out of the air.

 

[Eric.]

Oh, so I was thinking the right car anyway? Cool.


Rumor has it that Civic Si (USDM) production has been stopped and the plants are being converted for CR-Z production. Try finding a new Civic Si on a dealer lot. Apparently the last ones are mostly in Oregon and Washington. Someone on 8thCivic went to a dealer in the Northeast and had them look for an Si. In all of the surrounding states (I want to say this was in Connecticut?) they found five Civic Si's. It has been a few months since that was posted. My local dealer used to have at least four of them on the lot, and they haven't had any in months now.

This better be one hell of a car.

 

[homeforsummer]

Really? They're ramping down Si production? That surprises me, as I wouldn't have thought the buyers for the two were that similar. Or maybe they are.

Either way, the Wikipedia on the Si says that there are two plants making the car - perhaps just one of them will be making the CR-Z and the other will continue with the Si?

Also, strange as it may seem, it might just be that the Si isn't selling that well. If it was, it'd be even more surprising that they were stopping production. No manufacturer is daft enough to stop making something unless there's a like-for-like replacement coming along soon.

 

[YSSMAN]

I'm not a big fan of the current Si, despite its apparently hard-edged attitude. It seems like a lot of other compacts received more loving attention, particularly the GTI/GLI twins and the Mazdaspeed 3.

A shame certainly since the American Si was likely better than the Type-R that much of the rest of the world received.

 

[homeforsummer]

Debatable. From the reviews I've read (this one in particular), the Euro one was improved considerably when they gave it an LSD - it made it quicker, improved the traction, improved the steering, everything.

I guess personal taste comes into the styling too.

 

[eSZee]

I'm not a big fan of the current Si, despite its apparently hard-edged attitude. It seems like a lot of other compacts received more loving attention, particularly the GTI/GLI twins and the Mazdaspeed 3.

A shame certainly since the American Si was likely better than the Type-R that much of the rest of the world received.

That is, well, crap. There is nothing hard edged about any Si the US has gotten so far. They are all just "boy racer" econoboxes that wish they were half as fun as any Type-R. Si/type s models are closer to the stock vehicles than they are to the type-r.

 

[YSSMAN]

Note: Use of the word "apparently."

Generally speaking, however, the Honda is going to have a more pure or "hard-edged" experience to offer than the majority of the competition currently offered in the US. Take what you will out of that, but when your primary competitor is the aforementioned GTI and a Camry-powered Corolla XRS... Even the "lesser" sport Civic is going to be a totally different kind of car.